Who do you side with? - The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie (1969) Discussion

[–] techniscope 15 years ago

if i had to choose, i would side with sandy, but all three women are incredibly flawed. miss mackay was a bitter, cold woman who couldn't connect with anyone. it seemed like she lived for ruining others. while i did agree with some of her point of views, i couldn't support someone who was so hateful.

jean brodie, what a piece of work. she puts an image out there of herself as independent, strong, well-cultured, etc when in reality she is none of these things. i didn't buy her silly stories from the beginning of the film, because i have encountered so many fake people like her before.

she thinks she's better than everyone because she knows about art and has traveled the world, when that's pretty superficial. it doesn't make you a decent human being. a teacher, a parent, a great leader does want young people to think outside the box, but they also want them to make their own decisions and mistakes and learn from them. that's how children grow into adults. miss brodie doesn't want that. she wants everyone to think and behave exactly like she does, just like miss mackay tries to force her morals onto everyone. in many ways, both characters are alike, they just happen to be on the opposite ends of things. she never takes responsibility for her actions or the pain she has caused others. she thinks she's above it all.

i feel slightly bad for sandy because she is a product of this environment. when she told miss brodie off in that final scene it was magnificent! finally, someone called her out for the phony she truly is and always has been. i cannot believe pamela davis didn't receive an academy award nomination for her performance.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] FilmWarrior2006 15 years ago

The simple view is that teachers wield power in a classroom, and JB used her power blindly. Everything has a cost, and she was so naive that she never saw what that might be; loss of a girl's life, loss of the trust of her students and in the end the loss of her job. She had to learn what Ben Parker taught young Peter Parker in a silly little super hero film, "With power comes great responsibility." I love the film, and feel there a few lessons in the film, one of which is we must show personal restraint when teaching children.

"Oh, Kent, that is so unfair! And we were going to make you King of the Winter Carnival."

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[–] TheEtiquette 15 years ago

Sandy was mean, selfish and overall an irritating character and that's it.

Miss Brodie then again was indeed "the dangerous Miss Brodie" with her naive idels but she was an inspiring teacher.

But when all is said and done, it's Miss McKay who was right. She was perhaps a little small-minded, old-fashioned and judgemental, but she did what was best for the school and for the pupils. And as Miss Campbell says "the Brodie girls are different" and it is not good to have some students who think they are better than others because a teacher has encouraged them to do so.

As the saying goes... the time to make up your mind about people is never

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[–] MyMovieTVRomance 13 years ago

Sandy was mean, selfish and overall an irritating character and that's it.

Miss Brodie then again was indeed "the dangerous Miss Brodie" with her naive idels but she was an inspiring teacher.

But when all is said and done, it's Miss McKay who was right. She was perhaps a little small-minded, old-fashioned and judgemental, but she did what was best for the school and for the pupils. And as Miss Campbell says "the Brodie girls are different" and it is not good to have some students who think they are better than others because a teacher has encouraged them to do so.

The_Etiquette, I mostly agree with your analysis-- Especially the part about Sandy. I felt that Sandy's character became more and more thoroughly unlikable as the movie progressed. There was something very cold and very eerie about her; she seemed to have the calculating behavior of a spiteful killer. I mean, just consider the way when Ms. Brody went into the classroom at the end, there was Sandy, standing in the middle of the room, in the dark, only to be seen when Ms. Brody turns on the light. She was creepy---as though she was going to "go for the kill" at any moment. So, when Miss Brodie called her an "assassin" as the end, I could totally see it. In a perverse way though, this scene has the strange effect on my understanding, as I suddenly see Brodie as a woman who needs to be "assassinated", despite how much I'm inclined to like her. So, I am torn...

Nonetheless, there is something very creepy about Sandy, and anyone who doesn't notice this is missing a key to her character, I think. She is definitely not a moral character. Any morals that she seems to have are only deceptions to shield her true nature.

As for Ms. Brodie, I am conflicted about her. I really like her for the colorful, romantic woman that she is. Although, it isn't good that she's so unconcerned with how dangerous her influence could be on the girls, I honestly feel that it's because her inner motives were good -- she seriously wanted to foster growth of passion who stood up for a cause. She didn't want any of them to be hurt or to get hurt -- even if those things were consequences of what she taught. Incidentally, I thoroughly disagree that she should be blamed for Mary MacGregor death. It is not her fault what Mary chose to do after hearing her speech. Anyone who listens to her speech objectively will know that all she did was tell the girls to stand up for what they believe in and to not be afraid to fight for a cause. All those things are very admirable when taken for what they are. They are virtues, and anyone who lives their life sincerely and doing what they believe is living virtuously. Let's put it this way, you would want someone like that on your side, someone unafraid to stand up for you, wouldn't you? What a good friend that person would make! So, I see Miss Brodie as a flawed woman, but with many admirable qualities -- unlike that of the spiteful Sandy, who I see as a dark, very, very calculating and cold character. Yes, Miss Brodie had faulted politics. But again, you have to put yourself in the time and place, and you must understand also the motive of the character and their outlook on life. Miss Brodie had a beautifully rose-colored outlook on life, which should immediately alert any analyst of her character that Miss Brodie is coming from a mostly noble place.

Now, as much of that do like Jean Brodie, I have to admit that there is one thing I didn't like about her... well two things. They are: during the scene where Mary MacGregor walks in and finds her kissing that guy, I think that she behaved rather scarily, which was behavior on suited to a child mistakenly coming into a room. It isn't as though Mary did it on purpose. So, I was a little scorned by that. The other thing I didn't like was the fact that Jean Brodie was essentially hoping and trying to set up Jenny as her successor would that nasty art teacher. That's basically consent of sex with a minor, and I just can't be okay with that. At the same time though, again, we must realize that minor versus non-minor is basically just the interpretation of a law. And laws have little to do with the development of human sexuality. Some people at a younger age develop maturity sooner than other people. So from that respect, maybe she wasn't a minor? At the same time, in Edinburgh in the 1930s, maybe there laws about miners were different then? It's quite possible they were. So, before we get on our high horse and then sold Jean Brodie for her improper use of sexuality and relationship to minors, we must remember the time and context and how that related to "minors" of the times. That being said, it doesn't excuse the fact that Jean Brodie was trying to mold Jenny to her own liking. That part still bothers me. If it weren't for those two parts though, I would definitely say Jean Brodie is a woman of admirable enthusiasm and character. If it weren't for those two flaws are pointed out, I would definitely like her more. Like I said though, I'm conflicted. Nonetheless, I like her. And I'm disheartened by the fact that so many critics and analysts on these boards tend to be a might too harsh on her. So many of you seem to have very little sympathy and very little insight into what her her emotions and her heart, instead looking at the cold hard facts, rather than the motives which shed light on the truth. Human beings are not cold, hard facts, lest we have souls.

But, this brings me to another reason why I agree with your post, The_Etiquette. You are the only poster I have read something from so far who really described Miss McKay---to a T! The part of me that has a problem with Miss Brodie (sadly, b/c I really want to like and believe in her more than I do) sides with Ms. McKay, as she really is as you so correctly described.

If Miss Brodie were real though, I would send her a shout out. I would say "Don't worry, Miss Brodie. I understand you. It'll be okay."

"Moment by Moment" (1978), may be the most underrated movie ever! May be my fav! <3

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[–] adam-feightner 13 years ago

i am torn Mary did die but the other girl was clearly jealous of miss Brodie and in the defense miss Brodie she was just being a great teacher i don't think there is right a side on this just a bunch of mistakes

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Gloede_The_Saint 15 years ago

Miss Brodie was rather messed up in the head but everyone in this film had good sides and bad sides. I'd say Sandy was the most moral of the 3 of them though. She actually cared about other people instead of being caufgr up in ridiculous and dengerous philosophies (Fascism in Miss Brodies case and Christianity in Miss MacKays case).

Somebody here has been drinking and I'm sad to say it ain't me - Allan Francis Doyle

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[–] Trippetta10 14 years ago

Sandy's intentions were mostly good, but she did have a cold, spiteful side as both Teddy Lloyd and Jean Brodie recognized. I suspect she told on Miss Brodie in part because resented Teddy's preferring Jean to herself and also being seen by Brodie as a sexless spy, as well as being concerned about Clara and the other little girls Brodie was influencing.

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[–] shamara26 14 years ago

I can't say that I side with any of them, because all three acted like spoilt children. Emmeline and Jean were just as spiteful as Sandy eventually became. Remember what Jean said to Sandy about how having her portrait painted would not have been her career? And later, when she was bawling her out for sleeping with Mr. Lloyd? She obviously didn't think Sandy good enough for anything like that, and so she lashed out at her, insulting Sandy's intelligence, because that's what she thought would hurt the girl the most.

While I don't exactly respect what Sandy did (as it was very petty), she at least had a reasonable basis for her actions. Even if you don't think she was responsible to Mary McGregor's death, Jean wasn't very good for those girls.

LIVE the dream. PHEER the otaku.

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[–] jaddison383 13 years ago

While I think it was becoming clearer and clearer that Miss Brodie did need to be 'stopped', as Sandy put it, I don't agree with some posters saying that part of the film's triumph is making you feel no sympathy for JB; I don't believe she meant to become a menace, delusional, and manipulative, she was just very insecure deep down, desperately needing to create her small little army of girls. In that sense, I do feel for her; a woman so completely lost. However, she was a 'truly ridiculous woman.'.

FYC: Joel Courtney & Elle Fanning for Best Actor & Actress

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[–] EllisFowler 13 years ago

I couldn't disagree more. Jean was absolutely secure in the knowledge that she was right and in the novel went to her grave (quite young, as the result of cancer) with no change whatsoever in her attitude. The difference was that she never knew who had betrayed her because Sandy neither apprised her of the fact, nor told any of the other girls.

I think you missed the point - Jean's conviction of her own invincibility is at the core of her character. We like her because she's colorful and Miss Mackay is, by contrast, so unlikable and uninteresting (and of course, Maggie Smith is absolutely brilliant). But she's completely self-absorbed. Even her commitment to her students is a means to her own ends. She may lecture them in truth and beauty but they arrive in the senior school ill-prepared for the academic rigors that await them.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] marktayloruk (2590) a year ago

Life with Jean would never have been dull! Miss McKay was another frustrated and jealous spinster.

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[–] dbrockskk1 13 years ago

"Whose"

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[–] joshua_carpino 10 years ago

there's not one sympathetic character in the entire movie.

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[–] kenny-164 10 years ago

The OP of course has posited three sides to the question, those being Ms. McKay's, Ms. Brodie's, and Sandy's. This is interesting in at least two respects that should be remarked upon at the outset.

The first is we usually consider such questions based on two choices rather than three. But three choices not only gives us the obvious difference of two rather than three. On a deeper level we have to consider a geometric progression of the number of relationships. We go not merely from comparing two sides of one relationship but two sides of three (of course not much is shown in terms of screen time of the relationship between Ms. McKay and Sandy, but it is a factor). What is beautifully played here is the subtle way our view of Jean in relation to Ms. McKay first sets up our view of her vis a vis Sandy, but then that setup I think is subverted. I will return to this.

The second is does the way one of three acts towards or affects one of the other two change our view if the third of the three is also shown to be affected in a certain way?

More generally, The Prime is an exercise in shades of gray, visually as a cue to the shadings of the three characters considered in this thread. As in real life none are purely good nor evil, and the filmmakers i think must have been intent on having this kind of treatment.

The narrative arc of the film as alluded to above plays with our expectations before subverting them. The theme of Jean's fascination with fascism is subtly introduced at first before it becomes slowly more explicit, but before we get to that point we have encountered what appears to be a fight between the open minded, creative, student-centered and dedicated teacher and the bureaucratic, narrow minded, even petty and agenda driven principal. Think of the scene where Ms. McKay leaves the classroom without saying anything to the students or Jean, just closing the door, her absence a relief to all concerned. This dynamic tends to put us on Jean's side.

But then we are slowly introduced to the negatives of Jean's relations with her students. We see the attempted romance with the music teacher as incresingly manipulative and inauthentic. We wonder early on about the abrupt manner in which she explains why Giotto is better than Michelangelo, but find that is not really an exception in her case. Her politics become incresingly clear to be not only inappropriate but quite naive. By the time we get to the encouragement of an affair by the art teacher with one of her former students, still underage, we have clearly crossed some kind of line.

But it gets worse, even going beyond encouraging a former student to risk her death and have such risk realized, but to respond inappropriately to such result with a paen to that victim's "honor". The suggestion is that Jean is not done going too far, and before she does, Sandy brings her down. Whatever squeamishness we feel knowing that this means Ms. McKay has also won I think is overwhelmed at that point by recognition of the necessity of pulling the plug a as it were.

Another theme, that of the dedicated teacher being free to inspire her pupils, is also subverted, initially subtly, but again increasingly obviously as the film proceeds. Jean imperceptibly moves from generous iconoclast to self absorbed, vicarious manipulator to Pied Piper and sexual conspirator encouraging statutory rape. We in seeing this see the double edged sword of her supposed dedication to her students.

As for those here who have questioned Sandy's motives, while concededly such motives are fit subjects for this thread's discussion, two things must be said about such subject. First of all I think, as in real life, she has some mix of motives. Some good ones may well also advance less selfless or honorable ones, but that does not mean the ones that are less honorable serve to completely undermine the value of the "good" ones. Second and probably more significant is that Sandy's motives, even if seen as venial, do not on their own make Jean's position preferable or superior. Obviously the problems with Jean exist apart from Sandy's view of them, even if we to some extent see her through Sandy. In other words the subjective "truth" of Sandy's view of Jean does not overcome the objective reality of Jean's role and actions.

The foregoing, along with Maggie Smith's awesome and really impeccable performance, give this a 9, in my opinion. THis despite some issues of with what struck me as some editing issues and some less than marvelous performances by the supporting cast. Pamela Franklin not among those less thans. She also was very good.

A near great movie.

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[–] Lester_Burnham_Risen 10 years ago

As for those here who have questioned Sandy's motives, while concededly such motives are fit subjects for this thread's discussion, two things must be said about such subject. First of all I think, as in real life, she has some mix of motives. Some good ones may well also advance less selfless or honorable ones, but that does not mean the ones that are less honorable serve to completely undermine the value of the "good" ones. Second and probably more significant is that Sandy's motives, even if seen as venial, do not on their own make Jean's position preferable or superior. Obviously the problems with Jean exist apart from Sandy's view of them, even if we to some extent see her through Sandy. In other words the subjective "truth" of Sandy's view of Jean does not overcome the objective reality of Jean's role and actions.

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A great post and one I could spend hours answering, so when I have time I will post further.

But the main line was deliciously served up by the director at the same time he had us ogling Sandy's "best points", ie "Edinburgh [and the whole world at least since Hatshepsut 3,500 years ago] is full of the likes of Jean Brodie, it's just that they don't teach at Marcia Blane"

Jean HAD to be stopped and we saw what happened in 1970 when "one of those women" ie Germaine Greer was NOT stopped and went on to give us the American Beauty we know today, albeit most people below 60 have no idea there ever WAS a time of gender equality before the small f feminist takeover.

Hence the whole meaning of "in her Prime" ie the "Hell hath no fury ..." like a woman who is about to go "over the hill" having MISSED her Wild Oats when she was "14 or so".

http://www.kindleflippages.com/ablog/

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[–] Lester_Burnham_Risen 10 years ago

and if you care to investigate, or simply read from Lolita, per:

After all, Dante fell madly in love with his Beatrice when she was nine, a sparkling girleen, painted and lovely, and bejeweled, in a crimson frock, and this was in 1274, in Florence, at a private feast in the merry month of May.

Nabokov, Vladimir (2012-07-27). Lolita (p. 19). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

you will see Brodie's ramblings about Dante and Beatrice are totally fabricated in her mind and reported as being at 14, the very age that she herself wants to revisit but change the facts and the very reason Sandy has worked out the "proxy" bit re Brodie's desire to get her "look-alike" gal into the artist's bed.

of course Sandy trumps the whole dream by simply jumping into Teddy's bed herself albeit at 17, and just as quickly jumps out again, having proved her point in a number of ways and finally explaining to Brodie "neither of us wanted him for his MIND, did we?" which puts the final nail in Brody's coffin, ie exposes the whole farce of her "prime" garbage.

http://www.kindleflippages.com/ablog/

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[–] dmike5000 10 years ago

I am split, but I guess it would be Sandy, Though, who wouldn't want a teacher like Miss Brodie? Remembering most of my dry, boring teachers, she would be a breath of fresh air! I always wondered if the Hugh story wasn't part of Jean's imagination? Fascism didn't have the stigma in the 30s it does now, even Studebaker had an automobile model then called the "Dictator". Jean thought of herself as modern and up-to-date. Unfortunately, that obsession led to the death of Mary, hence, my tilting to side with Sandy.

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[–] marktayloruk (2590) 3 years ago

Miss Brodie differed from most of the staff in personality. She had one! She was romantic and naive but never dull.

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[–] dmike5000 10 years ago

I am split, but I guess it would be Sandy, Though, who wouldn't want a teacher like Miss Brodie? Remembering most of my dry, boring teachers, she would be a breath of fresh air! I always wondered if the Hugh story wasn't part of Jean's imagination? Fascism didn't have the stigma in the 30s it does now, even Studebaker had an automobile model then called the "Dictator". Jean thought of herself as modern and up-to-date. Unfortunately, that obsession led to the death of Mary, hence, my tilting to side with Sandy.

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[–] Lester_Burnham_Risen 10 years ago

I always wondered if the Hugh story wasn't part of Jean's imagination?

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Hugh may have been real but what is definite is she did not have sex with him [as for a Lolita] and having missed her wild oats at 14 to 17 or so became obsessed by that [same as the new Lolita as Angela in American Beauty].

in her warped mind she even altered the story of Dante and tried to get the young red headed girl into bed with the artist after she got exposed herself as being frigid with him, thus losing her "power".

but she was totally overboard in doing her PROXY on her students and Sandy was correct that SOMEONE had to stop her and as not even the Principal was up to the job she stepped in and STOPPED her from further damage [but Mary was dead, ie only number 4 on Brodie's list of priorities].

http://www.kindleflippages.com/ablog/

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