MovieChat Forums > Hud (1963) Discussion > Did Alma want to be raped?

Did Alma want to be raped?

posted 9 years ago by disinterested_spectator
17 replies | jump to latest

I saw this movie with my parents when it first came out, and they both said, “She wanted to be raped, and she was irritated when Lon stopped it from happening.” A few years later, my girlfriend said the same thing.

I dismissed their remarks without argument, because I’ve always believed that No means No. But I just read Pauline Kael’s essay in her book I Lost It at the Movies, in which she argues that Alma wanted to be raped. Her reasoning is that Alma wanted Hud, but if she had simply given in to him, she would have been just one more woman he had sex with. But if he had to take her by force, he would feel all guilty about it in the morning and realize she was something special. This would lead to a permanent relationship.

So, I would be interested in the opinions of others on this matter.

[–] mike-848 9 years ago

Alma was attracted to Hud. He knew it and she knew he knew it.

In the scene in her bedroom when he asks her if she "still had that itch" and she answers "off and on" notice how she's thinkin about Hud's proposition for a few seconds. That part of the scene where he's waitin for her answer is a little long and she subtly raises one of her eyebrows to let him know she's tempted but backs off and doesn't answer.

Her hesitation came about because he was a "cold blooded bastard" as she states later when he tries to drunkenly seduce her in the kitchen.

I don't feel she wanted to be forced upon at all. The bus station scene when she's leavin says it all. She tells Hud it woulda happened sooner or later without the rough house.

I think the woman who feel Alma was askin for rape may have a little Paul Newman rape fetish dreamin themselves.

[–] grizzledgeezer 9 years ago

In Human Sexual Response (I believe), Masters and Johnson said the most-common sexual fantasy among men and women, hetero- and homosexual, was being overpowered.

Which, of course, is not (exactly) rape. But I suspect many people want to be "raped" without being injured. I'm basically a top, but if Sam Elliot or the catheter cowboy (or Gabby Hayes or Festus Haggen or Denny Miller) were breaking down the door, I'd tell 'em "Come on down!".

Both men and women view aggressive sexual behavior as "manly". Is it any surprise that women tease men, then are astounded when things don't turn out the way they wanted? You don't wave a cape in front of a bull, then complain when he attacks. There is no such thing as "polite" or "affectionate" rape.

"Date rape" is real -- but what percentage of reported incidents actually occur, and how many are in the mind of the woman, I have no idea.

I suspect Ms Kael's opinion reflects more her own feelings than those of Alma. (Hud would never feel guilty about anything, so her conclusion is invalid.) But -- who knows what women really want? At one time (and it still might be true) women would complain if their date didn't come on to them. ("Are you gay?")

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] carrieandxtina 9 years ago

Id say from her body language said no.

[–] bluefellow 9 years ago

Pauline Kael wrote some wonderful essays, but she was way, way off the mark here. The idea that Alma wanted to be raped is preposterous and more than a little disturbing.

1. Yes, Alma wanted Hud---their flirtation is a big part of the movie. But the logic that Hud would feel guilty and it would lead to a permanent relationship does not ring true at all. Hud never feels guilty about anything and Alma is smart enough to realize that. Furthermore, she recognizes Hud for the cold-hearted son of a gun that he is. Why would she want a permanent relationship with someone like that?

2. The assault traumatized her to the point she left town and left a job she seemed to love.

3. As pointed out, her body language and the abject terror in her eyes do not convey the impression of a woman who secretly "wanted it".

"I don't want any Commies in my car. No Christians, either."

[–] Dreamsville 8 years ago

I dismissed their remarks without argument, because I’ve always believed that No means No. But I just read Pauline Kael’s essay in her book I Lost It at the Movies, in which she argues that Alma wanted to be raped. Her reasoning is that Alma wanted Hud, but if she had simply given in to him, she would have been just one more woman he had sex with. But if he had to take her by force, he would feel all guilty about it in the morning and realize she was something special. This would lead to a permanent relationship.
Pauline Kael wrote some wonderful essays, but she was way, way off the mark here. The idea that Alma wanted to be raped is preposterous and more than a little disturbing.

Yes, I would say Ms. Kael's reasoning is just a little, uh... faulty? If Alma was a clueless bimbo I could maybe buy it, but Alma is one tough and smart cookie, as you said. I can't see her entertaining any such childish illusions about how being raped would make her "special" and lead to a permanent relationship with someone like Hud, whom she already had pegged as the bastard he was. I mean really, wtf?

[–] henryonhillside 8 years ago

Did she want to be humiliated and left enraged and sobbing on the floor? No. Did the thought cross her mind that sex with Hud would be fun, maybe even some role playing and push-the-boundaries by mutual consent? Obviously. Big difference. We can gauge the depth of her humiliation and rage by the fact that she packed up and departed a job she loved, "far as I can get on a bus ticket."

[–] disinterested_spectator 8 years ago

According to Pauline Kael, Alma leaves the next day because a frustrated rape would be too sordid for all concerned.

I don't buy it, you understand. I figure Alma did not want to be raped, pure and simple. It just amazes me that three women, my mother, my girlfriend, and Pauline Kael, all said she wanted to be raped. But I'm just a guy, so what do I know?

[–] henryonhillside 8 years ago

For films she was reviewing, Kael generally read source material - novels, short stories, etc. Maybe her interpretation is coming from that. I would be interested in how Larry McMurtry handles that aspect of the story in the "Hud" book, which is titled "Horseman, Pass By."

[–] disinterested_spectator 8 years ago

I am not sure whether I read this in Kael's essay or somewhere else, but if I recall correctly, in the book Alma is black and Hud rapes her.

Back to movie, Kael speculated that if Lon had not stopped Hud, he would have raped Alma. Then, the next morning, he would have felt all guilty about what he had done, and the next the you know, they would have gotten married. Then, once a year, on their anniversary, they would have played rape to commemorate the event.

In an essay I wrote on this topic elsewhere, I quoted Kael at length, which you can read at the following link if you wish: https://disinterestedspectator.com/2016/01/31/has-no-always-meant-no/

[–] Dreamsville 8 years ago

I read your essay, and all I can say is that the quotes by Pauline Kael make her sound batsh-t crazy. Stick with your own opinion. IMO your view is the correct one (and btw I'm also a guy). :)

And yes you're also correct about the book: the housekeeper character is black (IIRC her name is Halmea, not Alma), and Hud does rape her. I think that would have been inconceivable to put in a major film in 1963 though, hence the changes.

[–] telegonus 8 years ago

No, but she did want to have sex with Hud. It was a complicated situation at the ranch and, especially the night Hud went after her. I don't think that Alma wanted it that way, but she did want it, and she wanted it from Hud.

[–] PoppyTransfusion 8 years ago

Ever tried, ever failed?
No matter.
Try again, fail again.
Fail better.