Political parties?


In this movie, the two parties appear to be 'reversed'.

For example...
Iselin (Democrat): referred to as a Fascist; embraces Lincoln.

Jordan (Republican): referred to as a Communist (Holborn Gaines too); gives money to the ACLU.

My guess is, the script writer (possibly Condon's novel, which I haven't read) deliberately confused things, so as not to appear to be taking sides.

...Or maybe they were implying there's not a dime's worth of difference between the two parties, when you get right down to it.

Does anybody know?

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Uh, where'd you get the idea that Iselin's a Democrat and Jordan's a Republican? I don't think they ever say. My personal theory is that all the characters are Republicans, some just don't like each other.

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It's clearly implied on the party scene between Jordan and Johnny's wife, Eleanor, that they are of the same party. Jordan says clearly that he will do all he can to prevent Johnny from being nominated for VP. If he was from the opposing party, he might welcome Iselin'e nomination knowing that he had evidence to destroy him and his campaign.

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More to the point, Jordan would be in no position to keep Iselin from the VP nomination if he was in the opposite party.

Jordon is clearly modeled after New York Republicans of the era, such as Jacob Javits, who today would probably be considered too liberal even for the Democrats.

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I'm pretty sure that the two parties have become the opposite of what they once were. The Republican party being a conservative party would have been a liberal party at the time of the film.

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I stand corrected.

In the book, Iselin and Jordan are definitely in the same party. I just inferred Jordan was in the opposite party because the Iselins referred to him as a Communist.

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Iselin and Jordan are BOTH Republicans.
The Republican Party in the 1950s was nothing like the Republican Party of today. It included both liberals and conservatives. The GOP's tilt toward the extreme right began in the 1960s with the mass defection of Southern segregationists from the Democratic Party in opposition to LBJ's civil rights legislation. By the 1980s the Republican Party's leadership was almost entirely from the Deep South, and the old, liberal Republican guard had virtually disappeared.

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One thing I loved about this film was the way the ultraconservative grande dame turned out to be a secret Communist. Having lived in a region where that kind of right-wing rabblerousing is distressingly common, I enjoyed seeing it taken down a peg.

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The parties at the time were nothing like they are today.

In the 1950s, the Democrat/Republican aisle wasn't an Iron Curtain like it is today, and politicians didn't have to agree with their party all the time. There was a lot more diversity within the parties themselves, so it wouldn't be unusual for two politicians from the same side (i.e. Jordan and Iselin) to hate each other more than they hated people in the other party.

For example, the race issue divided the Democrats between a dominant Northern wing which joined forces with the Republicans, and a rebellious Southern wing that was on its own until it died in the sixties. On the other side; the welfare state divided the Republicans between a dominant moderate wing which joined forces with the Democrats, and a conservative wing which essentially stayed buried before returning to power in 1980.


Denny Crane.

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The rebellious Southern wing didn't die in the sixties. It changed sides and took over the Republican Party. The Republican Party's success in the south is based entirely on playing the race card, and most of the leadership of the Republican Party in Congress comes from the Deep South.

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Right. And the same way, the moderate (mostly Northeastern) wing of the Republicans didn't die in 1980, it changed sides and went over to the Democrats. My point was that there was that they stopped existing as independent wings within their own party, thus helping cement the political order of today.

And, I think it's an oversimplification to say that the Southern switch was "entirely" based on racism. It was probably the biggest motivation, but there were other factors; 1) the modern South is much less poor than it was back in the thirties, which makes it easier for them to support the party of the rich; 2) other parts of the Southern way of life also played a part. Southern reverence for military values was one (when the Democrats became associated with the anti-war movement), Southern religiosity was another one (and the focus of identity politics has been shifting from race to religion over the last few decades).


Denny Crane.

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"the modern South is much less poor than it was back in the thirties, which makes it easier for them to support the party of the rich"

I'll agree that the South is "less poor than it was back in the thirties," but before referring to the Republican Party as the "party of the rich," you might want to consider these 2 exit polls from the 2008 Presidential Election:

51% of the people with assets greater than $10 million voted for Obama (CBS)

52% of those making $200,000 voted for Obama (Newsweek)

Then there's the Prince & Associates survey that had two-thirds of those worth more than $30 million supporting Obama.

Finally, the USA's richest citizens, Gates and Buffett, were enthusiastic supporters of Obama.







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"The Republican Party's success in the south is based entirely on playing the race card"

I'd like to see you name even one piece of legislation from the Republican Party that demonstrates their "success in the south is based entirely on playing the race card?"



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You are repeating a fiction, albeit an often repeated one. No deep south Democrat politicians became Republicans, not one, other than Strom Thurmond, but that was 20 years earlier.

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Oh ye of massive ignorance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats

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Mostly right, but the conservative wing of the GOP came to the forefront in 1964 with Goldwater's nomination, and was strong in 1976 as well when Reagan almost wrested the nomination away from Ford.

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See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

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Interesting revisionist history. Since the GOP supported the Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts in higher proportion than the Democrats, why would bigoted Democratic southerners switch parties? The southern state Democrats, including Al Gore's father, voted against both acts. They desserted the party because of McGovern and then after Carter, even though he was one of their own and it was mostly over "values" issues, not race. Nixon's so called "Southern Strategy" is a myth invented to explain the shellacking the Democrats took in 1972. And Nixon himself, for all his Cold War bluster was a liberal. Who do you think started the EPA, Food Stamps, etc., in the late 60's, early 70's?

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Why don't you go look up how many votes Democrat Lyndon Johnson got in the deepest of deep South states (Mississippi and Alabama) in 1964 when he won in a national landslide. It is pretty obvious it was LBJ who really lost the South for Democrats,

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See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

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Iselin and Jordan were both of the same party; there are few indications as to which party it is except that Mrs. Iselin negatively references Mr. Stevenson, presumably Adlai Stevenson, maybe indicating that they are (conservative) Democrats.

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It's pretty clear they're both Republicans:
- Using Lincoln for symbolic value.
- Iselin may not exactly be Sen. McCarthy, but he's of the same ilk.
- The divide between Iselin and Jordan makes sense in the Republican party; it doesn't really in the Democratic party, since obviously neither is a southerner.

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R's and D's are all the same when you look at who owns them.

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As others have noted, the parties were not nearly as cleanly ideologically sorted in 1962 as they are in the 21st century. To my recollection, though, there is just one reference to a political party in the movie, when Raymond retorts to her mother's "communist!" slur that the newspaperman they are talking about is a Republican. This implies that Republicans were seen in the world of the film (just as in real life) as more staunchly anticommunist than Democrats were.

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Liberal and conservative weren't strictly divided along Party lines, then. In fact, in their first congressional campaigns, JFK ran as a conservative Democrat and Nixon ran as a liberal Republican.

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Right. The national political parties were not divided by ideology until the 20th century was more than half over. There were many Left progressives in the Republican party in the first half and especially first third of the last century. One only has to look up, among others, Robert LaFollette, Teddy Roosevelt, Hiram Johnson, Charle Evans Hughes (moderate), Wayne Morse, among many others. Liberal New York Mayor John Lindsay served in the 1960s. Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Minnesota elected their share of moderate to liberal Republicans well into the middle of the last century, including California Governor and later Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren and anti-Vietnam War Representative Pete McClusky years later.

As to the Democrats, many "race conservative" Southerners were pro-New Deal under FDR; and many were also with Roosevelt on going to war circa 1940, while Midwestern Republicans, Left and Right, tended to be isolationist even as many were also moderate to liberal economically. There were also conservative northern and western Democrats, especially in upstate New York and New England and the Far West, notably the Southwest. Neither political party was monolithic in terms of ideology till relatively recently. Pre-1900 neither party was much to the Left or Right, as the Industrial Revolution did not lead unionization and more rights and better living conditions for people of modest to medium means. Regional loyalties, and the difference between city folk and country folk were larger factors than economic issues.

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