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'The Atheist who believes in God': nuanced character twist or cop out?

posted 12 years ago by gambitvoleur
16 replies | jump to latest

At the end of the film Hornbeck says Drummond is an "Atheist who believes in God" after Drummond mentioned that Brady looked for god "to high up and too far away." I have two questions about this.

1) is it true?

Does Drummond really maintain a tightly concieled, personal belief in god, or is Hornbeck just finding a snide way of saying that Drummond is sentimental and still cares about the Bible emotionally, in contrast to Hornbeck's own cynical distain? Drummond never technically confirms the truth of the comment, but his silence seems to be an omission.

2) If it is true, in your opinion does this enhance or detract from the character?

Does being some kind of closeted believer who knows he can't mesh his belief with objective reality make Drummond an ever more complex individual, torn between worlds, or is it simply a cop out because Hollywood wouldn't dare make its audience admire a character who remained an Atheist through-and-through? I myself am genuinely conflicted, although I lean towards the latter. Partly because I've seen that pattern before: there are many films and/or plays of the mid 20th century that can only depict gay characters in states of immense self-loathing.

But I'm interested in you people! Come ye internet folk! Unleash the dogs of...uh...reasonable conversation...please.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] solarisdeschain 12 years ago

Yes, it's a cop out.

[–] Hurricane_G-Man 12 years ago

cop out.

"I don't have an opinion. The word "opinion" implies the possibility I'm wrong."

[–] MissyH316 12 years ago

1) I see Drummond as more of an agnostic rather than a hard-core atheist. He may not have the strong faith and fundamental conviction of a Matthew Brady, but I think neither does he have the shallow cynicism of the (probably) atheist Hornbeck, either.

My feeling is he's not totally opposed to the idea of there being a Divine, Almighty God, but perhaps he's more opposed to what he sees as man using his faith as a bully pulpit. I'm a Christian, and I think the behavior of the townsfolk was not a good reflection of true Christian values - although I'm sure in their own minds they meant well, thinking they were simply standing up for God.

2) Definitely I saw this as a nuanced character twist. Why should this be considered as a cop-out? *I* see it as bringing realism and depth to the Drummond character. Multi-dimensional characters are usually far more interesting than one-sided ones.

In fact, I think this film showed both Brady AND Drummond that way - like in the moment when Brady shut down Rev. Brown's tirade against his daughter for defending Bert Cates. Later, we saw where Brady was genuinely grieved at having hurt Rachel by using her very trust in his confidentiality against her in court. I don't think he truly meant her any harm, either, but got carried away in doing what he did best, and that is debate and win court cases.

People aren't always totally "black-or-white" on any given topic, and as long and as much as Drummond had been around this ol' world, I can imagine he sees some things in less black-and-white terms than he may have when he was younger - say, around Hornbeck's age. Life experience can definitely change a person and their viewpoints as well.

Okay, gambit - I've "unleashed" my dogs of...uh... what I believe is reasonable conversation. Now what say you? :-)

"Think slow, act fast." --Buster Keaton

[–] atlasmb 10 years ago

Of the opinions expressed here, I think yours is closest to being correct. Of course we can never really know, since these are just characters. But it makes sense to see Drummond as an agnostic. Note the ending when he slams the two books together. And his ability to quote biblical verse. Clearly he does not believe the Bible should be taken literally. He is portrayed as an open minded man who does not believe, but is willing to discuss and consider all points of view.

[–] thesnowleopard 10 years ago

I was always under the impression that Drummond was a believer and, in fact, a Christian, not an agnostic nor an atheist. He simply wasn't the fundamentalist kind of Christian that prevailed in the town, or that blindly hated science and other kinds of knowledge (people on both sides tend to forget the number of devout Christians in history who have given us major advances in science). Everyone, including Hornbeck, had assumptions about Drummond that were rigid and untrue. Drummond didn't bother to correct them, that's all.

Innsmouth Free Press http://www.innsmouthfreepress.com

[–] atlasmb 10 years ago

Let me paraphrase an exchange between the two courtroom opponents:

Brady: Faith is the most important thing.

Drummond: Then why is man plagued with the ability to think (reason)?

Drummond is asserting that reason supersedes faith. All believers know that faith is the only true path to belief. The story of Abraham is one good example.

A quote from Cliff Notes about the character Drummond: "He is idealistic and claims to be an agnostic, believing that knowing whether God exists isn't possible."

[–] billyparker 11 years ago

Every atheist believes in god--he or she merely substitutes "reason" or "science" for the Jaweh of the Bible.

[–] TheGutterMonkey 8 years ago

Every atheist most certainly does not believe in god. However, the wonder and quest for answers that the theists find in god and religion is a similar thing that we find in reason and science. A theist may find fulfillment in their way but, through the wonder of science and exploration, we find our own kind of fulfillment in our search of the mysterious unknown. Questions are what we have in common. Our answers and ways of getting them are what differ.

S.C.W.
www.TheGutterMonkey.com

[–] jescci 10 years ago

There's a shot at the beginning of the movie when the group is having dinner and Drummond is alone at a table fixing to dig into his humble wax-paper-wrapped sandwich. While the timing tight, it is no coincidence I believe that Drummond does not actually bite into the raised sandwich until Brady has completely finished saying grace.

[–] pepperdog61 10 years ago

I believe that Clarence Darrow, upon whom the Drummond character is based, was agnostic. Drummond is also referred to as an agnostic twice, once by Hornbeck ("We're growing a strange crop of agnostics this year") and once by Brady ("Is there anything that is holy to the celebrated agnostic?" or something like that).

[–] scott-269-715736 9 years ago

Clarence Darrow appears to confirm it when he said, "I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

As I recall Darrow also prepared the Bible questions long before the Scopes trial. He realized the Bible is flawed either in facts or the way they are recorded. Once he was denied any witnesses to give scientific testimony he brought out his list of Biblical challenges and managed to get Bryan to slip up on his former unchallenged fundamentalist claims.

If the movie makes changes to the events for entertainment's sake, I like to believe they stuck with the nature of both men. I don't see it as a cop out at all to stick to the truth of their lives when possible - overlooking the close relationship they never had. Even E.K. Hornbeck had some of H.L. Mencken's traits, even though Mencken went back home before Bryan took the stand and certainly didn't share a room with Darrow.

Today I believe hollywood might make Henry Drummond an atheist and in doing so, weaken the movie into a winner takes all battle between science and religion. That seems like it would be cop out for a complex character, plus we would lose some of the great lines from the script.

[–] TheGutterMonkey 8 years ago

Today I believe hollywood might make Henry Drummond an atheist and in doing so, weaken the movie into a winner takes all battle between science and religion. That seems like it would be cop out for a complex character, plus we would lose some of the great lines from the script.

If you were to question most atheists you'd find that they are nothing more than agnostics (and vice versa). "Agnostic", however, is a label with much less of a stigma attached to it. The prefix "a-" goes before words to mean "not this" or "without this" (like amoral or asexual). "Theism" is the belief in a god. Therefore, an "a-theist" is someone who is without or does not have belief in a god. It doesn't mean that they have a belief that there is no god or feel for certain that there is no god (atheism isn't making a statement, it's merely a way of saying "I'm not the statement that they are making). And that's why most atheists, when questioned about their beliefs, will give you the same answer as an agnostic. Many (if not most) atheists tend to get annoyed by the repeated confusion by people that are under the impression that an atheist is someone who proclaims to know there is no god. We don't. We're simply not theists. (However, there is a small group who go into minute detail in their self-labeling.)

"Gnostic", by the way, has to do with knowledge. So, of course, an agnostic is someone who proclaims to not have knowledge about a particular subject ("I don't know", as you usually hear them say). That's why you'll often hear atheists call the term "agnostic" a cop-out, just because it's saying the same thing but in a less taboo way. The word "agnostic", after all, is only 147 years old and was coined by none other than "Darwin's Bulldog", Thomas Henry Huxley, when he was actively promoting the recently discovered theory of evolution to crowds of religious folks who more than likely weren't fond of the term "atheist".

As mentioned in a previous post, the film Contact also addresses the conflicts between the religious and non-religious. And its protagonist is an atheist. Yet this movie, too, handles the topic fairly. So, personally, I don't think that it would be so bad if Drummond was shown to be an atheist if this was ever remade. However, I believe Clarence Darrow was big on calling himself an "agnostic", though, so it probably still shouldn't be changed.

S.C.W.
www.TheGutterMonkey.com

[–] 8 years ago

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