MovieChat Forums > 12 Angry Men (1957) Discussion > 12 angry (white) men and no women

12 angry (white) men and no women



Were there no women allowed in jury's in the '50s? And no blacks or other minorities?
That's like asking for a biased judicial system.

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This matters because?

"And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future."

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For one, that was not a jury of his peers. Two, do you really think if the defendant was black that he'd get an unbiased verdict? I don't. It showed the problem with the jury system at the time. This film is very progressive, and that's why it's a classic.

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There were no Eskimos either. What a biased system indeed.

Never be complete.

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No handicapped. No Asians. No gays (out ones, anyway). No 20-somethings.

How in the world was justice ever served?

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I really don't see why pointing this out is relevant to the film itself.

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Black folks didn't exist until the 60s.

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As Nikki Haley has pronounced, America has NEVER been racist. See the problem?

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It's doubtful that he sees the problem, let alone the post, since you're replying to someone that said that 10 years ago.

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Yes, I see that. Just continuing the convo.

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I don't know why everyone's acting offended that you'd bring this up (and ignoring your questions), I wondered the same thing. Presumably women weren't allowed on juries back then. Possibly the same was true for ethnic minorities, or maybe most of them were constructively excluded by the selection procedure. The film takes place in NYC, it's hardly the most homogeneous of locations. There was one foreign guy, though. The scene where the one racist guy starts ranting and everyone turns away struck me as probably rather flattering of attitudes of the time, instructive to the audience rather than representative of them.

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This isn't a personal reply to you, but to the topic in general.

If I recall correctly, ther was a ladies' room in the jury room. So women were probably serving in juries then, just not this one.

These are movies, they don't have to be homogenic, well-balanced examples of the society. Let's say there were 500 courts of law. 200 of them had women in them, and 250 had minorities, blacks, whatever. This happens to be one that has neither. What's the problem?

I think including one or two black guys or some women just to "shut people up" would be more offensive than not including them. Which is the case in modern American films. Token Indian characters, token Chinese characters, token gay characters... which usually aren't part of the story at all, they just stand there.

Never be complete.

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The reason the movie consists of 12 men and no women is because the story isn't really about the jury process per se. This movie is more about how types of men interact with each other. They just used the jury room to control the environment for the sake of the story. You have these types of men

1. The foreman- nice enough guy but a weak leader.
2. A meek guy
3. Lee Cobb who was awesome as the old bastard
4. The analytical broker type

5. The guy who grew up in the slum
6. The small business tough guy who is pretty conservative but fair,
7. The guy who was indifferent to all this stuff
8. The thoughtful dissenter

9. The old man
10. The racist
11. The foreigner
12. The wishy washy guy

If you add women to the mix you aren't seeing the interaction because men act differently around women. Make a similar movie with a woman or two in it and I will watch that too. But this wasn't that.

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I'd watch it.

"Everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects". Will Rogers (1879-1935)

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The scene where the one racist guy starts ranting and everyone turns away struck me as probably rather flattering of attitudes of the time,

You might be giving people a disservice. The civil rights fights of the 1960s weren't a sudden light above peoples heads that made them see their previous ideas were racist. There would have been decades of people talking about issues.

I grew up in the 1950s as a child and racism and government policies were actively discussed with as much fervour as today.

Think of the Patriot Act, which will be seen in 50 years as a sickening aberration in a dark period of repression as bad in its way as the 1950s was towards minorities.



You know, I've seen a lot of people walking around
With tombstones in their eyes

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True. I grew up in the 1950s, too, and there was a lot of awareness of and discussion of racism and sexism--those issues didn't just suddenly pop out of nowhere in the mid-1960s. I think a lot of younger people today imagine we were all sitting in our suburban tract houses with white picket fences, sneering at the negro shoeshine "boys", and going out on warm summer evenings for the weekly lynching. A bizarre caricature of the '50s exists in American popular culture today that's not likely ever going to be corrected by education, mainly because people enjoy thinking about that time in that way. It makes them feel so evolved.

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Guess you didn't notice the women's restroom (for female jurors), either.

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So?

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I WANT THE TRUTH! http://www.imdb.com/list/ze4EduNaQ-s/

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So you ignore the other replies...why?

Could you be any more ignorant of the time period? Take my word for it, racial attitudes then, were quite similar to what they are now.

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So you ignore the other replies...why?

Reply, singular. I didn't ignore it, I read it and had nothing to add.
Could you be any more ignorant of the time period? Take my word for it, racial attitudes then, were quite similar to what they are now.

I'm going, among other things, by the laws and conventions of the period, and by the extant attitudes of people of that generation whom I've known.

So I won't be taking your word for it.

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So, there must be woman jury.

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People only want to hear what they want to hear

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At the time of the movie - woman had the right to serve on a jury - but they were not obligated to as men were. Thus if a woman did not want to serve she didn't have to. Now, just like in this day and age, serving on a jury for most is a chore not a privilege (a shame), so many, if not most women, would choose not to. Back in the 50’s many, if not most, women were homemakers and taking care of children so serving on a jury - even if they wanted to - would be a hardship on the family. Put this together - and you have a situation where having an all-male jury was not uncommon. So women could serve (thus the bathroom) - but it was not frequent.

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A voice of reason and thoughtfulness to answer a simple question. Nice.

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The last post (cabal24) says it best. The film is called 12 Angry Men, and that's exactly what it is about; the interactions of 12 men.

It is about how they all might seem similar on the surface, but each is his own man with his own reason for believing what he does. The fact they all look similar (similar enough) in appearance only highlights the contrast more. If some of the characters were tokens (black, asian, gay, woman, jew, englishman, whatever), the contrast is lessened because there would already be a pre-existing, 'built-in' difference (on the surface, at least).

The fact the men are mostly of similar age and race only makes their disagreement more potent, rather than lessening it.

Such is my view, anyway.




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There was an (European) Immigrant, and a Hispanic man on the jury.

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rj_inthehouse

There was an (European) Immigrant, and a Hispanic man on the jury.


The European Immigrant was still a white male (with European Immigrants making up a large percentage of NYC), but more importantly, who was the Hispanic man on the jury.

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There wasn't a Hispanic on the jury unless we are calling the immigrant Hispanic. The rest were anglo-saxons.

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I wasn't calling anyone Hispanic - I was asking the previous poster who was he thought was Hispanic.

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I know. I was agreeing with you, Hero.

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gotcha - thanks for clarifying - my bad

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I think the other poster was referring to juror #6, the house painter.

I actually thought he was Hispanic too.


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why did you think he was Hispanic?

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Because he looked Hispanic to me

Is that a crime?


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Why so defensive - just asked why - didn't know if he said something, had an accent, etc. The actor isn't Hispanic and I didn't hear an accent. I was just curious.

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I don't really have an ear for accents, so I can't judge that. However, many supposedly Hispanic people look perfectly Central European to me. Say, Ricardo Montalban, Diego Boneta, Andy Garcia, Alexis Ayala, Rodrigo Santoro, Rodrigo de la Serna... any of them could be Polish, Austrian, Slovakian or German and I honestly couldn't tell. I see people like them in the streets every day, and yet I'm pretty sure there's no Hispanic community over here.

Now, say, Eduardo Verásategui, Jacob Vargas, Alex Meraz or Joaquín Furriel, these definitely are what I imagine a Hispanic guy could look like. But still I can't spot the difference. Is it their skin tone? The shape of their eyes? How do you identify a Hispanic person anyway?

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I was asking the previous poster the question - why he thought #6 was Hispanic. I didn't know if there was something specific about him that made him think that. HE felt he was Hispanic and I didn't know why

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it was the juror foreman.

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Juror #6, said he lived in the same neighborhood as the defendant. He also didn't speak like the other men; his accent sounded similar to the characters in West Side Story, who were supposedly Peurto Rican, but could just be white actors working with a voice coach to "sound Peurto Rican".

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#6 – Edward Binns – didn’t have a Puerto Rican accent IMO. In fact – I don’t even think it is close. Also I don’t think he is portrayed as living in the same neighborhood as the defendant. I believe that was #5 – Jack Klugman that lived in that neighborhood (or same type) – but even he didn’t have a Puerto Rican accent (or Hispanic). I just pulled up a couple of their scenes and could not detect any Hispanic accent. Neither actor is Hispanic, and to me they just didn’t have that accent.

Does anyone else think Binns had a Hispanic accent in the movie? Curious

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None of them had hispanic accents.

That being said, it is possible that Juror number #5 was meant to be Hispanic.

He had a darker complexion than the other jurors and lived in the slums. He was attacked several times over it and was the first to get upset over Juror #10 racist attacks against the Defendant.

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Were there no women allowed in jury's in the '50s? And no blacks or other minorities?

The law did not allow race-based exclusion of blacks from juries, but it often happened. The legal history is as follows:

In 1868, the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution was ratified. This included a provision that "No State shall [...] deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Although there's been debate and controversy since then about the scope of the Equal Protection Clause, it's commonly understood (and indeed obvious) that its core purpose was to safeguard the rights of the newly freed slaves.

In 1880, the Supreme Court held that the Equal Protection Clause guaranteed the right of blacks to serve on juries, and that thus a West Virginia law barring blacks from jury service was unconstitutional. (Strauder v. West Virginia, 100 U.S. 303) The Court explicitly stated that its ruling did not address the question of whether a black defendant has any right to have blacks on his or her jury.

In a criminal trial, each side can strike an unlimited number of jurors for cause, with the judge's approval. For example, if the potential juror happens to be the defendant's brother, the prosecution can ask the judge to excuse that juror on the grounds that the juror could not be expected to impartially consider the case and should not be asked to do so. Challenges for cause require some "hard" and objective reasons which the judge recognizes as legitimate. However, each side can also strike a limited number of jurors without cause with "peremptory challenges," which do not require the judge's approval -- for example, maybe the defense attorney notices that the potential juror gave the defendant a particularly disdainful look but does not have a hard reason to ask the judge to exclude that juror.

Peremptory challenges are a necessary part of our judicial system. Sometimes bias is recognizable even if the reasons can't be clearly articulated, and attorneys need to be able to act on this to protect their clients' interests. However, prosecuting attorneys often used peremptory challenges to exclude jurors who happened to be of the same race as the defendant. Unconstitutional? Sure. But what could be done? In such cases, the prosecution did not have to give reasons for the challenges.

This issue came before the Supreme Court in 1965, in Swain v. Alabama (380 U.S. 202). Both Swain and another case I'll get to in a moment (Batson) are rather complicated, and I'll oversimplify and paraphrase them here. Essentially the Court held in Swain that members of a particular ethnic group might end up being excluded from a jury for any number of reasons other than race-based discrimination -- e.g., simple random variance in the composition of the particular jury panel drawn from the community; peremptory challenges for reasons other than race; et cetera -- and that therefore a claim of racial discrimination in peremptory challenges could not be supported with evidence only from any single case. A defendant making such a claim would at least have to show that discrimination had happened in other cases in that district and/or with the same prosecutor(s) -- in other words, "it didn't just happen to me, it goes on around here all the time."

In 1986, the issue came before the Supreme Court again in Batson v. Kentucky (476 U.S. 79). The Court held that the burden of proof set in Swain, although it appeared reasonable "on paper" when the Court came up with it, had proven in practice to be impossible to meet no matter what the strength of the defense's claim (for example, because of limitations in records kept of jurors and jury selection). The new bar that the defendant had to meet went like this. First, it was not necessary for the defendant to call in events from other trials. The defendant did have to show that (a) he or she was a member of a cognizable racial group; (b) the disputed juror(s) were members of the same racial group; and (c) these and whatever other facts (if any) the defense presents raised at least an inference that race-based discrimination had occurred. Once the defense met that burden of proof, the prosecutor had to state an acceptable race-neutral reason for the peremptory challenge, or the challenge would not stand. Because legitimate peremptory challenges by their nature are based on reasons which would not justify a challenge for cause and are often subjective, the burden of proof the prosecution must meet here is considerably lower than that for a challenge for cause.

That's the current standard, at least by the book. In practice, what happens is this. Prosecutors still use peremptory challenges to exclude blacks from cases involving black defendants, Asians from cases involving Asian defendants, etc. These exclusions automatically raise "Batson challenges" from the defense. The defense points out that the defendant is a member of race X and that the disputed juror is a member of race X. The judge rules that the defense's burden of proof has been met (even though the defense has not shown (c) above) and calls upon the prosecution to give some reason for the challenge. And the prosecution, already knowing that a Batson challenge is inevitable in such circumstances, already has some reason ready.

Note that none of this diminishes the right of the prosecution to exclude jurors of the same race as the defendant, provided that the exclusion is for legitimate reasons which have nothing to do with race. It simply means that excluding jurors who are of the same race as the defendant because they are the same race as the defendant is forbidden.

Also, none of this means that a defendant has any right to have members of his or her race on the jury -- indeed, in Batson the Court explicitly stated that a defendant does not have that right. Jury panels are drawn from and are intended to be representative of local communities, and if a black defendant is put on trial in a county that happens to be 98% white, that defendant will almost certainly get an all-white jury. On the other hand, if the community is 50% black and the jury panel reflects this, the prosecution cannot strike black jurors if the reason is that the defendant is also black.

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You really need to get a life.

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And you really need to learn some manners.

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Commenter BullSchmidt very obviously already has a full life of intelligence, thoughtfulness, and erudition. The excellent scholarly presentation explains key elements of jury selection. BullSchmidt studied history and jurisprudence for self-education and wrote here to educate us. (Thank you!) By comparison, hamiam3 surely received many facial punctures while learning to eat with a fork, not realizing that having an open mouth is helpful during certain phases of eating, and keeping a closed mouth is helpful when considering to prattle a worthless catchphrase.

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