A Career Limiting Move?


Just a musing thought... I've always been bothered by the final scene and outcome of this movie; where after all that has happened with the mutiny and such, the former Captain simply shows up and cheerfully offers young ensign Keith the opportunity to take the ship out of port. (And I believe in the book, some of the mutineers got promotions?) All forgotten? I don't think so; not in the real Navy. Especially not at that time. I firmly believe the principal players in the mutiny would have been ostracized by their fellow officers, and certainly no superior officer could ever trust anyone of them under his command. Are they to watch their backs each and every minute wondering if their officers are second guessing their orders? I think not. A commanding officer expects one thing for sure from his officers, and that is loyality. That is one of the main lessons of this film as summed up by the defense attorney in the champagne throwing scene. I think these mutineers would have been hounded; conveniently blackballed from operations; receiving less than stellar fitness reports; etc., until their only option would be to resign their commissions. Certainly they were 'technically' cleared by the court martial, but that would have meant nothing in the real world of the military. Their fellow officers 'would' have a clue and know the 'real' score; especially for denying their commander of their counsel and consent. These 'cleared' mutineers would be considered nothing but pariah on the officer core. I think a savvy guy like Maryk would have understood all this when he took command of the ship away from the Captain; that even though he was following 'the book', he was still risking prison time, but at the very least...his military career was over with at that moment in time. Yes, he possibly saved lives, but he most definitely had to sacrifice himself for that probability. Well, like I said, just a musing.

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You are right to an extent.

In the book, Keefer (who weasled out of being accused of anything) ends up commanding the Caine with Keith as his executive officer. The book also has a larger role for helmsman Stillwell, who is also accused of mutiny. He ends up teaching at a naval school.

Queeg ends up as the executive officer for a naval depot in Iowa.

Maryk gets command of a landing craft. Not a big LST by an LCI, the type of small craft that took infanty ashore. So he was really punished and his hopes of a naval career after the war get dashed.

Keith does get promoted and in the end commands the Caine on its voyage home after the war ended. However, on the same day, he gets a medal for saving the ship after a kamakazi attack AND word that the Navy has included a strong letter of repromand in his file. So had he stayed in the Navy, he would not have be promoted again.

As for oscraticism, he probably would have been ostracised by regular officers. However, by the end of the book, all of the officers in the DMS squadron seemed to be reservists who disliked regular officers like Queeg.

In the end, Keefer and Keith both sympathize with Queeg and seem to conclude that they were wrong (one of Keith's friends on another DMS noted that one officer one his ship was waiting to use Article 184 to relieve his captain).

As for the ending of the movie, I agree that it was a bit too cutsey.

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Both some excellent observations. I would say that anyone associated with the mutiny would be pushed into career killing jobs, if not separated from the service outright especially in that era that was as yet undefined by the UCMJ, which was implemented in 1954.

Although the book ends with much of the crew remaining aboard Caine except Queeg and Maryk, the likelihood of a mutinous crew staying together is virtally nil. Everyone aboard from the Captain to the bilge wipes would be transferred elsewhere and scattered through the fleet. The regular active duty Navy ran the show as much as they do today: near 100%. Even though communications weren't as fast, word of an event so unprecedented as mutiny would travel through the fleet pretty fast. Regular officers of every stripe would be appalled that not only were the accused found not guilty, but some of them were allowed to remain in uniform in a sea-going combatant command! At best with the acquittal anyone involved would be sent packing under a General Discharge: the Navy's way of saying 'we can't pin anything on you to send you to prison, but get out'.

In all likelihood (if you eliminate a miraculous defense by Greenwald) Maryk would have been found guilty and a whole landslide of court martials would follow. Although it was during a war where we needed to retain every trained man we could, the crew of a DMS (~150 men) is inconsequential compared to the good order and discipline of the entire Navy of 1944 (~ 3 million men). What Wouk fails to realize is that justice for a few would be absolutely crushed by the reality that the Navy can't let them get away with it in front of MILLIONS!

I don't agree with calling Maryk all that savvy. As a mariner, he was considerably skilled and experienced (and savvy). In matters of exercising good judgement he was a naive sap. The XO of the ship needs to be more the administrator/CO's enforcer and less the shiphandler. Maryk failed miserably in that role, and did not possess the abilities to be a good XO, which was his job. He would have made an excellent First Lieutenant (US Navy's usage of the job title, not the Royal Navy, where the First LT is the XO). I've seen ensigns with less of the 'deer in the headlights' look than him. I have beach front property for sale in Arizona for idiots like Maryk...

Needless to say, I have seen far better regular Navy men with more expertise and strength of character permanently beached for committing far less severe offenses or worse, having offenses committed on their watch as CO that they had no control over and nonetheless accepted blame for, than what happened on Caine: about the worst event imaginable at sea. The reality would more likely have been Maryk hanged or shot for his crime, soft Willie Keith breaking rocks at Fort Leavenworth for the next 20 years with Stilwell chained next to him, and the rest of that rabble roundly tossed out of the Navy.

As we all know both the book and the movie are fantasy pieces, as all works of fiction are to some degree, beginning with the act of mutiny aboard a US warship in WWII. Had a mutiny occurred, or God forbid, a mutiny occurs in the future, I highly doubt that ANYONE who had even the remotest involvement with it would be retained for service, and even those who were totally unaware of it would carry around the guilt by association for the rest of their time in the Navy. Those stupid enough to stay in would be sent to the least memorable spot imaginable to spend the rest of their time. Antarctica duty counting penguins comes to mind. Or assignment as the Naval Attache to Bolivia (landlocked nation).

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I have often wondered about the extreme anymosity Greenwald had for the Caine's officers from the moment he first met them to the "party" at the end.
I have read many posts with very astute observations and explanations for the disdain. However, despite all these explanations, I still believe that Maryk and the others had no choice but to relieve Queeg. He was obviously not in control and a danger to the ship and it's crew. Doesn't matter about the officers not trying to help Queeg when he asked for their help in the ward room meeting or that Keefer was a cowardly weasel. All that mattered during the storm was ensuring the ship was saved.
The only way this situation could have been handled to everyones satisfaction was to follow Queegs orders (and inaction at times) and let the ship go down,
sending about a hundred men to their deaths. That way nobody would be considered to be paranoid,incompetent, a weasel or mutineers. They could have had a beutiful memorial service declaring all to be brave heroes. But then that would mean we wouldn't have had much of story called the Caine Mutiny.

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The point Greenwald was making was that if the officers had done their job, and worked with the Captain, there likely would not have been a need to relieve him. Queeg reached out to them and they chose not to (pardon the pun) come on board.

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Exactly! Couldn't have said it better myself!

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The trouble is with Officers and Non-Commission Officers is that like every other American, they are taught in American culture, never to seek help because it would be a sign of weakness. Even if they had asks for help, no one would help because they would refuse to listen and change their behavior. Its the same way in Corporate America and the rest of America. If the boss keeps telling you to shut up and doesn't listen to your advice let alone carry out your advice; eventually, the workers and lower ranking managers will not speak up. The sad thing is that CEOs, military officers, and sergeants in this country always land a new job even though they have destroy their organizations while it is the rank and file who suffer and continue to suffer from their poor, incompetent leadership decisions.

In World War II, Admiral Halsey and his Task Carrier commander John McCain, Senior, twice got the Third Fleet caught a typhoon with some losses of ships and crews. The second time it happen, Admiral Joseph "Jocko" Clark, kept telling Admiral McCain that the ships need to maneuver independently or take a new course to save the ships. By the time, Admiral McCain gave the order it was too late to help the ships that were badly damage or were sunk by the raging seas. Admiral Clark gather evidence to prove that he was innocent if there was going to be a court of inquiry which there was. At the inquiry, Admiral Clark's lawyer play hardball with Admiral McCain to the point that he prove that Halsey and McCain were totally responsible for the tragic event. During a break in the inquiry, Admiral Clark told his lawyer that he could not talk that way to an Admiral. Clark's lawyer reply, that if he didn't play hardball, the Navy was going to cut Admiral Clark's throat from ear to ear. The lawyer told Clark that if the Admiral was not happy with the way his lawyer was conducting his defense, then the Admiral could get himself a new lawyer. In the end, Admiral Clark had to let his lawyer conduct his defense his way without interference from Clark. In the end, Admiral Clark did not have to face a court-martial let alone any kind of disciplinary action against him. Sadly, Halsey and McCain were still let off the hook for what they had done for their failure to take appropriate action in a timely manner and for not taking Admiral Clark's advice. Loyalty to a captain or an admiral can only go so far. One of the things that officers are taught is to look after their men and their unit, which is what the Caine officers did when they relieve Queeg. Sadly, military people even in those days play office politics although they are trained not to engage in that kind of nature since they were brought up on duty and honor. Captain Queeg did not have that kind of honor, since he probably lie to his superiors on the circumstances that led to the gun target towline being cut. I bet you that the enlisted men on the bridge were never allow to give testimony to the event, and even if they were, the board would have believe the captain instead of the enlisted men since sailors are nothing more than the sea version of land based peasants.

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Actually, Maryk wouldn't have faced the death penalty if convicted -at least according to the novel.

In the novel, Maryk isn't even tried for mutiny. The official charge is "Conduct to the Prejudice of Good Order and Discipline". It's described as a catch-all charge for grey areas.

This is how the book describes it:

"This shopper's list of crimes, however, did not provide a charge or specification for the peculiar offence of Lieutenant Steven Maryk. Captain Breakstone had quickly perceived that, though the affair was more like a mutiny than anything else, Maryk's invoking of Article 184 and his subsequent legalistic conduct made a conviction for mutiny unlikely. It was the queerest sort of twilight situation. In the end he fixed on the catch-all charge provided for rare or complicated offenses, 'Conduct to the Prejudice of Good Order and Discipline'."

In the end, even though he's acquitted, Maryk's hopes of a naval career are destroyed. If he'd been convicted, the maximum penalty would have been fifteen years incarceration and dismissal. After his acquittal, he's sent to command an LSI which is described as a humiliation, especially given his skills as a seaman.

Afterwards, the cases of Willie and Stillwell are dropped as the convening authority realized that convictions would be most unlikely given that the main figure in the case, Maryk, was acquitted. Stillwell, however, had undergone a nervous breakdown of his own just prior to the court-martial. Queeg had been persecuting him for pretty much the entire time he'd been in command of the Caine -another point in the book the film overlooks. The impending court-martial had apparently been the last straw. At the end of the book, Willie mentions that he heard Stillwell pretty much recovered after some shock therapy and was put on limited duty ashore. (Willie relates this in a letter to May. He says that Stillwell was driven to his breakdown by Queeg...and Willie now feels equally sorry for the both of them. In Willie's opinion they were both victims of the war).

In the novel, it's described that the vast majority of the officers and crew of the Caine are reassigned afterwards. Only three officers remain aboard from the Queeg days: Keefer, who becomes executive officer and then captain; Willie, who becomes executive officer when Keefer assumes command; and Farrington, who was only joined the ship two month before the typhoon and had nothing to do with the case. Of the crew, it's described that fully three quarters are reassigned with only a handful remaining.

In all likelihood, Willie wasn't punished any further because of the circumstances of the case. It was obvious to all that Queeg's tenure as captain of the Caine, even without the relief during the typhoon, had been a disaster. Supposedly, a regular officer -a trouble shooter- takes over after the typhoon and spends five months restoring order to the ship. After the court martial, Queeg himself is sent to be executive officer of a naval depot in Iowa -which is pretty much a career dead-end. He's later passed over for promotion. Even though the relief should never have taken place (a point which even Willie and Keefer acknowledge later on), it was clear that he was utterly incompetent as a commanding officer.

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Maryk and Keith should never have been charged for mutiny or bad conduct. The fact is that Queeg was a disaster as commanding officer. A commanding officer has got to instill a high degree of confidence in his officers, confidence that they are capable and trusted to carry out their duties unsupervised at all times. Having a captain who constantly criticises, watches every move, checks up on everyone over every minute detail, picks up on trivialities etc and believes that he is the captain and has to make everyone aware of it will very soon have a detrimental effect on the running of the ship and will ultimately totally destroy the confidence of the officers. A good captain is confident of his own ability and of his crew and will let everyone get on with their jobs. Believe me, when someone continually questions your every move and picks up on trivialities it makes you afraid to make a decision and to double and triple check everything so that nothing gets effectively done.

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Greenwals's animosity is very well spelled out in the book. Many of the nuances talked about here are better addressed in the book than in the movie. I'm sure Wouk was very familiar with the differences in the real navy and to what he portrayed, but that's literary lisence at work.

WHat doesn't come up in the movie, but is almost Greenwald's central point is his being Jewish (though purposely NOT from NY), and that it's the Queegs of the regular navy who serve and are prepared to defend the country, while the Greenwalds, Keefers and Keiths are going to school and pursuing careers. In Greenwald's words it's the Queegs who kept Herman Goring from washing his big fat ass with soap made from Greenwald's mother, and for that he deserved their loyalty.

FOr what it's worth, Queeg wasn't insane or even mentally ill, but he really wasn't suitable for a combat command.

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In the book, Queeg isn't described as veteran of much Atlantic combat. Supposedly he had taken part in Operation Torch (the invasion of North Africa), as he was once telling anecdotes to a seaman.

In the book, Queeg was described has having served on destroyers -albeit ones more modern than the Caine and ones hadn't been converted to minesweepers. He'd only briefly served as an executive officer on his most recent one, then had been sent to an aircraft carrier (the U.S.S. Brandywine Creek) for a short tour prior to his getting orders to relieve Captain DeVriess.

The book suggested that Queeg had seen some combat, but not the extensive battles with submarines that he alluded to in the film. He had, however, been serving pretty much constantly at sea for over four years by the time of typhoon (i.e. constantly assigned to ships and at sea, without any stints of shore duty in between to give him a chance to wind up).

The crucial point that the book suggests is that none of Queeg's prior duty had been as a captain. He was more or less fine as a subordinate officer where the final responsibility for the ship's welfare didn't depend on him. It was the isolating responsibility as captain, with the knowledge that he could conceivably kill over a hundred men with a single wrong decision, that pretty much broke him down.

When he testifies at the court martial, Willie describes how after Maryk relieves him, Queeg actually looks a lot calmer and more relaxed. Willie believes it's because Queeg realized that he was no longer responsible for the ship's safety.

Queeg wasn't insane. However, he was definitely an incompetent and ill-suited officer for command of a ship. His tenure as captain of the Caine was marked by harshness and extreme bad judgement. Willie, when he's able to step back from the situation and look at thing objectively, is able to see Queeg as (instead of the omnipresent monster he's become to everyone on board) as simply a well-meaning man struggling with a job that was far beyond his capabilities.

Greenwald's point -and Willie later concurred with it, when he wrote a letter to May months later at Okinawa, after he himself had become the Caine's executive officer- was that the officer's should have stepped up and helped Queeg. They should have covered his mistakes as best they could and make it look like he was best captain in the navy. Certainly, it would not make Queeg into a good captain. But, at least it would let him know that he had the loyalty of his wardroom and thus wouldn't feel so totally isolated. That's essentially the course of action Willie undertakes when he's executive officer and Keefer is the captain. Keefer is a nervous captain and a poor ship handler. Like Queeg, he's haunted by the potentially fatal responsibility of his office. Willie, however, steps up and covers any mistakes. Even when Keefer performs poorly when the ship is hit by a kamikaze, Willie doesn't criticize his actions and backs him up to the hilt when they give a report to the squadron commander. (To his credit though, Keefer -unlike Queeg- realizes his own shortcomings and openly discusses with Willie how he finds command to be an utter nightmare. He even says that he feels more sympathy for Queeg than Willie ever could, because he -Keefer- now knows exactly how tough a time Queeg had).

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That's quite correct.

The night after the Caine has been damaged by a kamikaze at Okinawa, Willie writes a long letter to May where he apologizes for his previous immaturity and begs her to marry him. In catching up on what happened after the trial he says that he realizes now that Maryk invoking Article 184 wasn't necessary. He's come to believe that Queeg would have decided to come north and head into the wind on his own, or he could have been persuaded to do so by Maryk. (Willie thinks Queeg would have groused and griped, but would have the sense to realize Maryk knew what he was talking about when it came to seamanship).

One of the subplots the film totally omitted is Queeg's persecution of Stillwell, the helmsman who happened to be at the wheel during the typhoon. In the book, Stillwell is at the wheel when they cut over the towline off Pearl Harbor. Queeg feels that it's Stillwell's fault for not warning him they were coming around in a circle (this is while he's berating Willie and Urban over the latter's shirttail). Queeg rides and persecutes him for the ensuing fourteen months he's in command of the ship. After the mutiny, Queeg wants Stillwell charged along with Maryk and Willie. This is the final straw and Stillwell has a nervous breakdown when the Caine arrives back in San Francisco for the court martial.

Willie mentions this to May in his letter. He says that Stillwell pretty much recovered after some shock therapy (and presumably not having to contend with Queeg anymore) and was assigned light duties ashore. He adds that now he feels equally sorry for Queeg and Stillwell. He says that they were both victims of the war -no more and no less.

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Then maybe Greenwald should have been a ship's captain (or some other active role as a combatant) rather than a lawyer, even though his efforts saved the nominal heroes.

Who cares about his fricken' guilt.

As for Queeg as presented in the movie, he was clearly mentally ill.

That he wasn't given help and loyalty when he clearly asked for it is a tragedy, but he wasn't fit for his command.

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Actually, Greenwald was an active combatant. He had been serving as a fighter pilot on an aircraft carrier. In the book, it's explained that he was injured in a crash while landing. He'd just gotten out of the hospital and was on temporary duty there until the doctors pronounced him healthy enough to fly again. So, Greenwald did understand combat and the performance required. Although, his experience was likely confined to a squadron of fighter aircraft rather than an entire ship.

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You are correct. Queeg wasn’t looking for empathy when he supposedly “reached out” to his officers seeking help. He didn’t want them to dispute his accounts of incidents which reflected poorly on his command. He wanted to enlist their aid in cover-ups.

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You do realize you are responding to an 18 year old OP. The last entry was 9 years ago. Some of these folks may not be able to reply to you. I only checked this thread due to the topic of it being an OLD movie.

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Heh. Yes, I do. Thanks. Sometimes it’s possible to revive a discussion thread even when the OP is long gone and, in this case, possibly deceased.

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You give the impression that Maryk captained a Higgins Boat, a 36' craft that carried about 36 troops, and was typically run by an enlisted man in charge of 2 or 3 other men. What Maryk actually commanded was an LCI, about 158' in length, carrying over 200 troops plus the 24-man crew - much less a humiliation than running a Higgins Boat.

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Issues raised on this thread remind me of a real-life incident that happened in the Navy in the 1960s during the Vietnam War and is described in journalist Neal Sheehan's "The Arnheiter Affair." Marcus Aurelius Arnheiter, the captain of the USS Vance, a destroyer-escort-radar, was relieved of his command by his superiors just 99 days after assuming command and reassigned to a career-ending desk job. His superiors were reacting to reports from the Vance's junior officers, as well as a chaplain who visited the Vance, that Captain Arnheiter's eccentricities had destroyed his crew's morale and that he had violated orders to patrol the Vietnamese coast, preferridng to provoke enemy fire against the Vance instead. Sheehan reported that several of the officers who had complained about Arnheiter decided to leave the Navy for fear of retaliation against them by Arnheiter's friends even though offcial investigations proved their complaints to be both serious and true. Arnheiter's executive officer was denied a previously-promised captaincy of another ship.

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Your viewpoint may be realistic. They wouldn't be punished but left on the vine to drop off after they wither and die. The captain of a WWII vessel was KING and they wanted to make sure no one forgot that.

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In the book, Keefer becomes Captain of the Caine and Willie becomes Keefer's executive officer. Most of the other officers are replaced, and Wouk says that the new officers looked on both Keefer and Willie with suspicion. Keefer disgraces himself by jumping overboard during a kamikazi attack, but Willie redeems himself by taking command of the Caine and supervising the extinguishing of an onboard fire started by the crash of the kamikazi plane. He further redeems himself when, shortly after he takes over as "The Last Captain of the Caine," he successfully maneuvers the ship to avoid damage done by another typhoon.
Neither Keefer nor Willie wants to remain in the Navy following the end of the war, but both Queeg and Maryk do. The Navy signals its intent to end both their careers--Queeg's for being incompetent and Maryk's for being insubordinate--by assigning them dead-end jobs: Queeg is assigned to a naval supply depot in Iowa, and Maryk to to command of a small landing craft.

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