MovieChat Forums > The Caine Mutiny (1954) Discussion > Completely irrelevant romance angle....

Completely irrelevant romance angle....


The romance with Willie and May was so not needed and completely a time filler. Did anyone care about their relationship?

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I agree. I loved every scene with Bogart but the romance story bogged the film down.

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It's in the book, so it's legitimate to include it. But, since the book looks at all of the events from Keith's viewpoint, his personal life gives a context to the mutiny. The film probably could have done a better job of tying the "relevence" of the romance to what happened on the Caine, but it didn't bother me. Besides, I enjoyed seeing how uncrowded Yosemite was in 1954.

Also, remember, most American men had served in the armed forces during WWII and their experiences were still fresh in their minds in 1954. I can understand the appeal of showing Ens. Keith trying to get in a little work on his relationship in between deployments at sea.

"I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it." Woodrow Call.

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In the film it is irrelevant. In the book, however, it's a crucial part of Willie's maturing process. May is one of the two things (along with his service on the Caine) that causes Willie to grow up and mature. Early in the book, while he's at midshipman school, his father visits and Willie tells him about his relationship with May as well as what Navy life is like so far. His father notes that he thinks that both of them are having a positive affect on him.

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I agree, but I think it was effectively shown in the film that he went from a mama's boy to a responsible naval officer and May was part of the process of breaking away from his mother and growing up. I didn't have a problem with the romance, it wasn't just thrown in to 'add some romance'.

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The main point of interest in the romance was the idea of Willie having to overcoming whether or not his mother approved of it. When one of the other officers told him that he couldn't rely on authority figures simply because they were in authority, my mind immediately jumped to his mother. So in a way him breaking free of his reliance on his mother sets him up for supporting the mutiny.

But otherwise, yes, the romance was unnecessary.


"Introduce a little anarchy." ~The Joker
"We Fascists are the only true anarchists." ~The Duke

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Just read the book, and wanted to share this here:

Upon hearing about the mutiny and the court martial, May said to Keith, "Willie dear, you couldn't mutiny--not even against your mother, let alone a ship's captain--"


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As you could see, in the book, May is a much more fleshed out character -at least, in comparison to the film portrayal- and Willie's relationship with her is a focal point of his development.

One line I loved from that scene is how when Willie points out the Board of Inquiry recommended a charge of mutiny, May says "Oh, hell. Who do you think you are, Fletcher Christian? Did you chain Queeg up and set him adrift in a boat? Did you pull knives or guns on him?"

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The points made here begs the question of the selection f Francis/Willie. I don't know the answer as I was only just born when this film was made. If the book was a character study of Willie and he was/is the central character, why was Francis, a fledgling actor, chosen for the role ? It seems to me the focus was re directed to 4 other characters - veteran actors Humphrey Bogart, José Ferrer, Van Johnson and Fred MacMurray characters. The choice of actors seems to indicate one of two things:
They A. expected Francis to make his bones with this film and hold his own if not out shine the others (doubtful) or B. they selected him knowing he would be little more than wall paper so that the above vets. would get the viewers attention - effectively altering the focus from the book version.

*Typing while watching 'Gaslight' - maybe should have waited 'til later...hope this made sense !

EDIT - Just answered my own question. In the book, Willie at this point in the story, was still wet behind the ears so the selection of a young, innocent, not very dynamic actor was called for.
Should I now delete my question/post(s) ?? Or leave it in case the same question occurs to someone else ? We'll see...

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Glad you left it, Ironman, because I think you've glommed onto some relevant questions and points.

For the shorthand answer to the issues of both character and casting, I go with your "B" option. Willie serves a different purpose in the film than he does in the novel. In the latter, he's the central character, and it's about him, with all other characters in support of his story.

From the standpoint of the film's narrative, he serves primarily as our eyes and ears, so that rather than being about him, he largely functions only as our witness to events, which we see through him.

From the standpoint of film making - particularly "Hollywood" film making - I'm sure it was seen that Francis would be non-competition for all that veteran star power, which - along with the prestige of the source material - would have been the film's selling point. Not to say that the producers weren't expecting that he might earn some chops - apparently there were some high hopes for him - but you've got to be pretty dynamic and stellar to outshine the likes of Bogie, Johnson, MacMurray and Ferrer - not to mention already-reliable players like Tully, Marvin and Akins. It does seem, however, that the script was deliberately constructed to shift the character emphasis.

So I imagine they felt that whether Francis sank or swam, he'd serve his purpose. If he didn't make an impression, no harm, no foul. If he managed to steal the picture, a new star is born and so much the better. Of course, we can now never know what kind of development he may have shown or what future he had.

Thanks for an interesting post, and I think you did pretty well with "Gaslight" as a distraction. I don't know how anyone could do anything while that film is running, except watch it.


Poe! You are...avenged!

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The two previous posts are both insightful. The book's theme is different from the film's. The book is about the maturation of a young officer, with the war story as a backdrop. In the film, the war story is the main point, with the story of Willie Keith's maturation given secondary importance, at best. In fact, the story of Willie Keith is underwritten (and underacted) just enough to be pointless, yet emphasized just enough to be annoying and intrusive. The filmmakers would have been better advised to drop the Keith story entirely rather than bungle it the way they did.

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Considering the degree to which the screenplay reduces the significance of the character, and his personal growth as both a man and an officer, the producers might very well have chosen to present the events on board the Caine as a passive narrative.

My guess is that they didn't feel safe in jettisoning Willie completely because of the popularity and reputation of the novel - rather like filming "Moby Dick" without Ishmael - and chose instead to use the time-honored device of presenting the story through the eyes of one primarily passive character (who is in virtually every scene) as a compromise.

I find it interesting that the three incarnations of this story - novel, play and film - each focus on different aspects thereof and employ different dramatic structures (the novel: from Willie's entrance into midshipman school all the way through to the Caine's decommissioning; the film: the events on board the Caine leading to and climaxing with the court-martial; the play: only the court-martial itself). Since reading the novel, I've felt it cries out for a fully-realized film treatment of the entire story. It would have to be either a very long and big-budgeted feature, or - my preference - something like an HBO mini-series, in as many parts as necessary to do it justice.


Poe! You are...avenged!

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That was one of the problems of the film, and was likely a reason Wouk disliked it.

Willie -the main protagonist of the book- is relegated to a background character with no personal or professional development.

In the book, after three months on the ship, Willie promoted to Communications Officer. Over the next year, he becomes amazingly proficient at his job. He also grows into a highly competent watch officer on the bridge. Maryk comes to trust him completely as an officer.

In the film, Willie never seems to outgrow being the "wet-behind-the-ears" Ensign.

In the book, Willie eventually becomes the Captain of the Caine his story ends as the ship is decommissioned after the war.

As for the romance angle, it's presented as a tacked-on addition in the film. In the book, it serves as Willie's personal growth catalyst, the same way the Caine is as his professional growth.

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glommed?

suzycreamcheese RIP Heath Ledger 1979-2008

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Sure. I think it was born as slang, but it's since gained the imprimatur of Merriam-Webster:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/glom


Poe! You are...avenged!

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Couldn't have put it better myself, johnmichael-2. I get where they were trying to go with standing up to the mother/captain authority figure, but it fell flat, and the romance scenes came out seeming both unnecessary and (what's more damning) uninteresting.

That said, the main reason I replied to your post rather than the OP's was because I wanted express my awe at your signature. Never thought I'd see The Dark Knight paired with Salò, or the 120 Days of Sodom. *raises hat*

Peter, is your social worker in that horse?

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True . . . but there may be other reasons she's in the film . . . one must continue to analyze . . .

I can't remember who said but there's a quote I fully agree with: a lot of female roles, especially in war and buddy movies, are there simply because they don't want anyone to think that the male characters are gay and in love with each other. Not saying the drippy Willie is gay, but it's amazing how often female characters feel like they're in a movie for that reason.

War pictures don't need love/sex angles. They just don't.

A good example is the not-very-good Midway from 1976. There's the whole subplot with Edward Albert's character Ens. Garth (Charlton Heston is his screen dad) trying to prove whether or not his Japanese girlfriend is a spy. It's just pointless and they cut away from the plotting of the battle > battle scenes way too much. I wish I liked that movie better, it's got some of my favorite actors in it (Robert Mitchum, Glenn Ford, Henry Fonda, Toshiro Mifune) and they just sleepwalk through it.

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The novel handled the girlfriend angle much better . . . the movie mishandled the whole thing . . . you get to a point where you wonder why she's even in this film . . . yes, Midway was disappointing . . . that too could've been handled better . . .

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In the trivia section it states "An October 1952 New York Times item revealed that there were two scripts prepared for Stanley Kramer, one that included "Willie" and "May's" romance and another, shorter version that only included action on the Caine and the court-martial." My immediate suspicion is that the studio wanted the romance angle in it so as to attract more female movie-goers who might otherwise have been put off by a strictly action-oriented film.

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The trouble was they put the romance story in, but didn't do it anything close to justice.

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Yes, in the novel, the romance gave important insights into Willie's character and personality. The movie version was typical Hollywood fluff. "Hey, we need a love story subplot."



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Typical of the times. Nearly all war movies had a romance in them. I don't think it had anything to do with developing his character. It was simply the way war films were made in the mid-50's. But I'm a kinda shallow guy and don't get overly philosophical about fictional events. So I could be way off the mark.


Remember Rabbit Ears with tin foil?

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You're right. The romance contributed nothing to the movie and could have been excised without harm to the film. In the book the romance was important to show the maturation of Keith--a major theme in the book, after all. But the romance weakened the film for two reasons: First, the writers failed to integrate it into the overall story, and, second, the characters were underdeveloped bores, not real people as in the book.

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I completely agree. Unnecessary romance angle (pretty boring scenes with May and the mother), plus way too little Bogart - he got only about 2 great scenes where his "paranoia" shows itself.

And for the other interpretation, the one viewed from the perspective of the lawyer at the end of the movie - that it was all made up by the wannabe writer Keefer, the commanding officer of Caine -, that (rather interesting) possibility was kind of poorly executed. There were just too few scenes with Keefer and his suggestions (only a couple, and those were rather moments of agitation, not real arguments).

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The only part of this Romance I liked was the Lighting of the Waterfall in Yosemite. I agree 100% though it was pointless in one of my all time favorite movies.


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. . . and May Wynn did look good in that sequence, otherwise I agree with you . . .

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I think less romance, more on the courtroom drama would have been better. I wish they'd just filmed Wouk's own stage adaptation "The Caine Mutiny Court-Martial" - which has more of a suspense angle since in the film we SAW Queeg's paralysis in the storm. And plays can be cinematic: 12 Angry Men is a good example.
(EDIT - 12 Angry Men started as a TV play before being adapted for the stage. Still made a good movie).

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Robert Francis was considered a very promising up-and-comer. My mother says he got a big push in the fan magazines and gossip columns. The Keith role was considered a plum for a young, fairly unknown performer. Unfortunately, Francis was killed in a plane crash after making only four films, but unlike James Dean, he is pretty much forgotten. He died only two months before Dean.

"We're fighting for this woman's honor, which is more than she ever did."

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I guess it goes to show it's WHICH few films you make: dean got to work with Ray, Stevens and Kazan in lead roles and got the lucky breaks. It's not that I had anything against Robert Francis: I just don't think the character warranted the time it got in TCM. And I don't know how Tom Tully (as the previous commander) got an Oscar nomination: he is barely in the movie!

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[deleted]

Agreed...it just slowed down the movie.

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The romance with Willie and May was so not needed and completely a time filler. Did anyone care about their relationship?

No, I really didn't care, but that was probably due to Francis's tree impersonation than anything else. I found myself constantly asking "what the hell does she see in this dork?"

I agree with the general assessment expressed by others -- the romance was an integral part of the novel and Willie's character development, and should have been given a fuller treatment or left out entirely. Certainly the novel is complex enough to allow many different approaches to telling the story, so leaving her out would have been entirely possible -- for example, in the play "The Caine Mutiny Court-Martial," Willie is only a very minor character and IIRC May isn't mentioned at all.

@TorontoJediMaster

[I]n the book, May is a much more fleshed out character -at least, in comparison to the film portrayal

I thought she was nicely "fleshed out" in the movie, actually. ;) Here's a photo of the actress before she changed her name:

http://pristine.webspaceforme.net/adult/60smags/oversizemagsP/12.jpg

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The romance was significant in the novel but was a side show in the movie as the op states. The book was really about a young man, Willie, going from being an adolescent mama's boy to finding his manhood. The film retained elements of this but it was subordinated by making it mainly about Queeg so the romance seems redundant.

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