MovieChat Forums > High Noon (1952) Discussion > Why did Kramer have Amy shoot Miller's h...

Why did Kramer have Amy shoot Miller's henchman in the back?


Its basic knowledge in the Western film that to shoot a man in the back is a sign of cowardice, the cardinal sin in the Western shoot out. So, why have Amy, the supposedly more virtuous Quaker who champions a pacifist stance, kill the guy from behind? Kane goes so far as to call out Miller's name to make him face him before he shoots; even with Miller, he faces Kane and we don't know if he wasn't going to release Amy before proceeding to fight with Kane or not, we're presuming that even Miller has a sense of honor. What statement was Kramer trying to make, do you think?

reply

Amy changed her mind and got off the train to be with her husband. She did what was necessary to protect him and it was very difficult for her. Not an act of cowardice. She concluded that if she didn't act her husband would be killed.

reply

Still, there are other ways Kramer could have had her kill him.... its an interesting choice to have her utilize the one method that is known to be taboo, as basic knowledge for any Western movie fan.

reply

My experience with western movies is that once the shooting starts and it's a desperate fight to the last man standing, anything goes. The taboo does not apply in this case. This is not like the men that killed Wild Bill Hickok or Jesse James (both were back shooters).

reply

But, then why did Kramer have Kane call out Frank Miller's name from behind if this was no-holds bar?

reply

Kane had scruples and and was an honorable man. This was the nature of his character. I do not think that Miller or any of his gang would have done the same.

reply

Have you ever seen a girlfight? Those are crazy-wild, there is no honor among women, they are self-destructive with hair pulling, scratching, it's absolutely insane! Perhaps the director was mindful of this : women do not participate in the rights of manhood that men are taught in the schoolyard every year of elementary school, and thus, women do not fight honorably.

reply

Miller's men did not fight fair: four against one isn't fair. It wasn't a duel. So why should Amy stick to the rules of dueling?

reply

Also, don't forget that Mrs. Ramirez said that if it were her man she would stay and get a gun and help defend him. This plants the idea in Amy's mind. Because she is a woman and a Quaker, shooting him in the back seems less cowardly. She is simply defending the man she loves.

reply

What did you expect her to do? Challenge the man to a duel? She wasn't a gunfighter. She could barely shoot the gun. That's the only way it could be believable that she could kill that man.

Open the door for Mr. Muckle!!

reply

Men fight a lot and have evolved rules of chivalry. Women only fight to protect themselves or their loved ones from harm. Chivalry is an irrelevant luxury they can't afford.

reply

I guess the OP thinks Amy should have told him to turn around first so he could have a fair chance of shooting her.

I hope I am never in a gunfight myself, but if I am, I hope I have someone watching my back with a better sense of tactics than the OP

reply

Women are given some leeway when it comes to fighting a man. For example, if an untrained female fighter is attacked by a man, no one would fault her for kicking him in the groin. Another man, however, might be castigated for using such a move.

Amy wasn't a trained gunfighter, she hadn't even touched a gun until that moment. As others here have said, Kane is her new husband. She would (and SHOULD) do all that she could to save his life.

The Wild Bill killing reminds me of a remark about it (or maybe it was another man who was shot from behind): since Hickok was supposed to have been shot from behind, people said of the shooter if he shot Hickok from a distance in the front, it was good shooting. If he DID shoot him from the back, it was good judgement.


"There will be blood. Oh, yes, there WILL be blood."-Jigsaw; "Saw II"

reply

Good post Tresix. To add to what you said, this is how I view the situation.


Amy wasn't a trained gunfighter, she hadn't even touched a gun until that moment. As others here have said, Kane is her new husband. She would (and SHOULD) do all that she could to save his life.


Helen Ramirez very forcefully told Amy as the gunfight breaks out that if it were her man she would stay and fight for him. I think this is when she changes her mind about leaving and decides to stay and fight for Kane. After all, she knows that Helen was once Kane's woman and this is the kind of woman that he needs.

Thus Amy gets the gun and helps in any way she can. I find no fault in how she shot the bad guy. She showed courage under fire and stood by her man in the end.

reply

Also reminded me of an episode of "Gunsmoke": in "Milligan", Harry Morgan played a meek man who goes on a posse to catch an infamous bank robber. Morgan's Milligan gets separated from the rest of the posse and finds the bank robber hiding in a cabin. The robber's gun is hanging on the wall when he spots Milligan. The robber runs for his gun and Milligan shoots him in the back, killing him. All of the men back in Dodge gives Milligan a hard time for shooting the robber in the back. However, maybe I'm wrong, but I looked at it like the robber was drawing his gun when Milligan shot him.



"There will be blood. Oh, yes, there WILL be blood."-Jigsaw; "Saw II"

reply

Yep, I would say that when your life is on the line it is either kill or be killed. Why would you give a man a chance to get the gun before you shoot?

It may have been popular in the dime novels about the old west to give your opponent a heads up and wait till he faces you, but in reality it probably hardly ever happened that way.

reply

On DEATH VALLEY DAYS, which was supposed to base its shows on actual incidents from frontier history, there was an episode about Sam Houston's son, gun-toting lawyer Temple Houston. (Played later by Jeffey Hunter in a short-lived tv series.) Houston was defending a man accused of murder. The defendant was a farmer or something, not a professional gunslinger; a man with only modest skills (if that) with a six-shooter. The deceased was a bullying, aggressive shootist who told the defendant to be out on the street at high noon, or something like that, for a showdown. The defendant shot him in the back. Houston dramatically demonstrated for the jury how fast and accurate a skilled gunfighter could be by whipping out his own six-guns and shooting out the lights in the courtroom. His point was that standing up to someone that skilled with a six-shooter was tantamount to suicide, so the defendant was perfectly justified in shooting the gunman when he had the chance. The jury acquitted him.

reply

The example that you cite Bilwick from Death Valley Days is exactly what this was all about: An inexperienced (with guns), law abiding woman against a known gunslinger and killer. This was not about honor, it was about surviving revenge and murder by the Miller gang.

reply

Why do you say "Kramer" when he didn't direct the film?




Mice work in mysterious ways.
No, dear. That's God.

reply

I remember seeing Johnny Guitar where Mercedes McCambridge and Joan Crawford are both wearing gunbelts. Mercedes in a long black mourning dress and Joan in pants. Mercedes shoots the man she loves right through the forehead when he gets in the way and then fights Joan in a gunfight. The outlaws and the possee look on horrified. Especially as the loser falls down the stairs dead.

Women aren't supposed to behave this way. Mercedes had lead the possee telling the sheriff and his men they were cowards.

I don't know everything. Neither does anyone else

reply

To her, it was wrong to kill. she stepped over her moral boundary so there was no morality involved in shooting the man. It was wrong to shoot him face to face, it was no more wrong to shoot him in the back. It was that or the man she loved would die.

You're lucky if a woman loves you that much.

I understand. Thank you for telling me. -The masked bandit

reply

it's been a while since I watched the movie. But wasn't Miller's hencman going to kill Will Kane? If so, Amy was just protecting her husband, who was fighting against long odds. When your life is at stake and you are along against several bad guys, you have to use any tool at your disposal. Including a beautiful young blode wife who shoots bad guys in the back.

reply

I guess the statement Kramer (or the director) wanted to make was this:

Yes, Amy saved her husband by shooting the bad guy, but she did it in a cowardly way, because she's a woman, and women are per se not brave.
That is probably the underlying reason.
Additionaly, if they had made her action too heroic, it would've taken shine and drama off of Kane in that and the subsequent scene.

Men thinking that women are naturally cowardly, unfair, without honor and so on was not only prevalent in the 50's, but also today, as demonstrated in the previous comments.
Therefore, this opinion is also reflected in movies..
which in turn influence or confirms their opinion on women.

reply

I really don‘t think, that’s what Stanley Kramer wanted to express.
Amy is a Quaker, as stated early on and throughout the story line she shows her pacifistic attitude and rejects any form of violence – I mean any violence, even if it‘s done for noble reasons, as we see from Kane. When she finally gives in to her believe and picks the gun and kills, it‘s the ultimate sacrifice she gives, to save her husbands live.
As for the original post – Why shooting the man in the back (instead of facing him) – this has been explained by others before. Any other attempt, to shoot the gunslinger would have been like committing suicide. Even so, as she does, she barely manages to hold that gun and pull the trigger.

reply

Amy is a Quaker, as stated early on and throughout the story line she shows her pacifistic attitude and rejects any form of violence – I mean any violence, even if it‘s done for noble reasons...


I agree with your views Rascar-Capac. One of the lines from the theme song plays to that idea: "Oh, to be torn 'twixt love and duty"
It wasn't just Kane that was torn between love and duty. Amy was also torn between her love for Kane and her duty to her Quaker religion. Love won out in the end when she picked up the gun.


reply

I hadn‘t realized this line from the song also being reminiscent to Amys own moral conflict so far, thanks. Once again: this films script perfectly works on so many levels, it‘s just amazing.

reply

Yeah, the script and directing was so tightly done that I absolutely lose track of all real time and get completely pulled into that High Noon time zone. I feel the time melt away. I'm watching the ticking clock, and sitting on the edge of my seat. Whoooo, Here comes the train!

From the ballad High Noon (Do Not Forsake Me): "Look at that big hand movin' round Nearin' high noon" Best movie and theme song ever!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTZ8MEi2yCo Sung by Tex Ritter (original sound track)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4a_1UhwgFU Sung by Frankie Laine. Great stills from the whole movie.

reply

I was watching one of my all time favorites [Hombre] last night and this subject came up in the movie.

Newman said to the kid something like "I'm going down there to get the woman. I want you to shoot the Mexican when he steps out behind me."

The kid is aghast."In the back?"

"I doubt if he's gonna turn around for you."

The lesson here is that idealism goes out the window when you are dealing with people who are trying to kill you.

As Matt Helm said one of Donald Hamilton's novels, "I shot him in the back because he just happened to be facing that way."


reply