MovieChat Forums > The Asphalt Jungle (1950) Discussion > Subtlety in Messaging (SPOILERS)

Subtlety in Messaging (SPOILERS)


This is the kind of nuanced writing that we're missing in a lot of mainstream cinema today. Every character is drawn sympathetically, but with flaws. The precise, measured logic of the German mastermind is juxtaposed against his criminality and creepiness. The thug, Dix, is also just a nice guy trying to get home - and so on.

At the end of the film, we get the speech by the police commissioner and McIntire NAILS it. Absolutely sticks the landing, making an amazing point about respecting law and order. He shows how thankless and relentless and necessary the police force is. He also shows a respect for the law with his line about the jury, "Justice or compassion".

But then, at the end, he characterizes Dix as a hoodlum with no respect for human life. We cut to this wounded giant returning home and dying, surrounded by the kindly horses that he loved as a boy. We see the wages of sin, the tragedy of a life of possibilities cut short by bad choices, and we see a conflict between the violence of the man and his gentleness that was buried under bad decisions.

It doesn't exonerate Dix. It doesn't condemn him. It shows us the complex reality of a man.

These days, it feels like we'd get a speech about that. It seems to me like we'd get the police commissioner's monologue followed up with a counter-speech just explaining the virtues of people who wind up on the wrong side of the tracks and blah, blah, blah.

The Asphalt Jungle was smarter than that. We do still get cinema like this, from time to time, but it's usually indie stuff, buried under larger, louder releases.

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This is an excellent movie. John Huston directing with a great cast. We are not only NOT going to see anything like it again, we are never going to see anything that comes close to it. In fact, it looks like we are never going to see an intelligent movie ever, especially as long as Netflix is around.

There are movies that match this however. And they are French. Check out Jean-Pierre Melville’s Bob le Flambeur, Le Cercle Rouge (The Red Circle) and in particular Le Doulos (The Finger Man) and Classe Tous Risques (The Big Risk) and Le deuxieme soufflé (Second Wind). And later Le Samurai and Un Flic. Most of these are around that time period and all are heist films except for Le Samurai.

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I think we'll see other great movies, and I think we can find them around even these days, they just aren't the headliners on the marquee. Martin Scorsese's Silence, for instance, is a profound, impactful, and powerfully moving piece of magnificent art that doesn't offer easy answers - only the complexity of humanity. It's also strong, visual storytelling and treats the audience with respect and intelligence. Unfortunately, it got buried for some reason. It didn't even get a Best Picture *nomination*, despite there being an empty spot that year. Appalling, in my opinion.

I'll add your recommendations to my extensive "to watch" lists. Le Samourai is already there, and I think The Red Circle, but the others are new to me.

Interestingly enough, I did just watch Rififi and loved it from end-to-end. It and The Asphalt Jungle have a LOT in common. I think I preferred Rififi, actually, although I'm not 100% sure of that.

My favourite scene in The Asphalt Jungle is where they go to arrest the "box man" and kick in his door and... it's his funeral. That was so fast and so dark and such great storytelling.

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I think this is not a good time for good movies. But art will always prevail and film is art. I will watch Silence. I am a fan of Scorsese.

Rififi was great - Jules Dassin. I would try and watch the Melville films. Maybe you watched Army of Shadows already - one of the best WWII movies about the French resistance. Elevator to the Gallows was also good - more noir. I love those B/W movies that are kind of grainy - but the ones I listed are all heist movies. It always seems that the main guy gets out of prison and want to do a big heist. Something always goes wrong with either selecting the wrong guys, someone gets wounded, someone squeals, or someone violates some rule that they have. Asphalt Jungle and Heat have a lot in common at the end - don’t linger too long - get out and get going. But each guy can’t follow his own advice. The French ones are usually in the seedy parts of Paris or in Marseille and Nice - the casinos - so it’s fascinating. Bob le Flambeur - is Bob the gambler - and so there is a twist to this one as he is a thief as well. Nick Nolte remade this one but I can’t find it anywhere. It was filmed in Nice. I think it’s called The Good Thief. Criterion Chanel has some of these French movies. The French actors are phenomenal: Jean Gabin, Jean-Paul Belmondo, Lino Ventura, Alain Delon, Yves Montand.

My favorite scene in Asphalt Jungle was at the end when Doc stops off at the diner and gazes upon the girl knowing that he went through all that for that.

I think I was in another conversation with you about Woody Allen. I have to say that, and I don’t know if you will even see this post as it took me a couple of days to respond, but that a discussion with you is guaranteed to be enlightening and intelligent. That probably doesn’t say much on this website, but your input is very welcomed and valued, by me at least. I wanted to respond to the one on Allen as well, but I waited too long.

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I do agree to some extent. There are several pernicious threats to cinema. The biggest is Disney, I think, just because they own so many IPs and are pushing for this very homogenous cinema genre of the action/comedy blend that they used in the MCU and Star Wars. I still think that great movies are still made, though, and picking a "best decade" for cinema would be - if possible - very tough. As you say: art will always prevail.

I haven't watched Army of Shadows. Elevator to the Gallows has a powerful rep; I'll look out for that one, too.

Heat does have the Asphalt Jungle connection, yes. Heat's one of the best movies of all-time, I think, and it's criminally underrated. I don't know why it doesn't get mentioned alongside other best-ever crime movies like Goodfellas. I really don't.

I do have a tendency to gas about Woody Allen's oeuvre (and personal life) on these boards, so that is perfectly possible. I appreciate your saying that about discussions with me; I try to find value in these boards and have discussions like this one that are actually informative about films and the film industry, not just a bunch of insults on the political figures' pages. Actually, I had a fairly frustrating conversation on Woody recently. The person I was speaking to (fc31, I think - something like that) didn't just disagree with me (which is fine) but just assumed I was arguing in bad faith and was dishonest as a person. That made me peace out after only a few exchanges.

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I knocked one off the list! I just watched Le Doulos.

Le Doulos was really great. It starts off with that wonderful shot of Maurice just walking, and it takes some time allowing for atmosphere and suspense to build without anything really even happening. As the film goes on, there's a lot of great intrigue and twists in the motivations of whom is double-crossing or setting up who. The performances are solid, I love the look of the piece, and all the characters look so stylish. The storyline is truly great.

I did find it hard to follow a couple of times. It was all the chatter about characters we haven't met or barely know; it can be a bit of a chore to keep track of who everybody is and what they're doing (it doesn't help that there is so much duplicity in the film). Still, I found that feeling only popped up once or twice and basically went away half-way through (once I was familiar with everybody).

Ultimately, though, the best part of the movie - and the biggest surprise - is that it's all about friendship. It's a bunch of tough guys, hardboiled gangsters, weary cops, and femme fatales, but the number of times "friend" (well, "amis") comes up is staggering. By the time there's the scene towards the end with three guys sitting around in a diner and they're talking about their friendships, it's become striking how almost sentimental the film is about what it truly means to have someone's back. Seeing what one character does for another is really nice. It's almost like how a "tough guy" puts together a Hallmark card. I don't mean anything is cheesy, cheap, or melodramatic. It's just a quiet theme that slowly pushes its way up, like flowers through concrete.

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I also watched Silence and I loved it and thought it reminded me of The Mission. I was glad to see something done well that was recent. The scenery and the story take away your breath. I, too, think Heat is one of the greatest movies. I love the shootout scene in Downtown LA. I think they filmed it on Mother’s Day. I heard that they wanted Keanu for Val Kilmer’s role and I often think about that one. Waingro is realistically the most diabolical and how creative to make him a serial killer. The other scary guy to me was always Al Lettieri in The Getaway or as Sollozzo in Godfather.

In Melville movies, these Parisian hovels look derelict with urinals in the hallway. The head guy has a modest apt artfully decorated and a gf he stole from the guy who went jail. I get the impression that even if they pulled off a heist successfully, that most of these guys would just blow the money. And like you say, it’s more the act of doing with the brotherhood. But there is always a betrayal. Real or perceived. As in Payback and/or Point Blank (1968). And they are not afraid of killing. The Folies Bergère-like night clubs make me laugh. At the beginning of Le Doulos, it took me a while to figure out why he killed the guy with the jewels.

Lino Ventura plays the crook in Le deuxième soufflé and the cop in Elevator to the Gallows. I am a huge Belmondo fan. Both great French actors.

I think the one that is spellbinding of Melville’s is Le Samourai. It’s 1967 and in color. It’s not about brotherhood but about a loner. Kind of like Leon - Leon has a plant, Le Samourai has a parakeet. But it is phenomenal and Alain Delon is great. There’s a funny line about Ursula Andress. The piano singer is special too. I also liked Un Flic (a Cop) too - it’s 1972 with Delon and Deneuve and Richard Crenna. It’s not considered one of his best but there’s a lot to like. The opening scene is spectacular with this stormy northern coastal town in France when they rob this bank. The colors are a gray lavender. I like French crime a lot. This is when men wore hats and a trench coat.

How did you watch Rififi? I am trying to find these movies and I wonder how I ever saw them.

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I saw Silence in a theatre, and it's the only time a movie has ended and I have just sat there, just watching the credits, trying to process everything. It was so profound and moving, I just couldn't get up. It would have been almost irreverent to me, at that moment. You're right: there's a lot of The Mission in there. That's another great movie; lots to love there.

They show the shootout scene from Heat to marines and tell them that they should be watching Val Kilmer's technique and aim to reload like that. That's impressive. It's got some of Pacino and De Niro's finest work, too. A-list cast, great action, and amazing personal drama. Keanu wouldn't have been as good. He's gotten a lot better as an actor. Mid-90s, I don't think he'd have been an ideal Chris. There's a Le Doulos connection here, too, because there is a clear friendship connection between Neil and Vincent in Heat, but because they're robber and cop (respectively) they aren't friends.

I had some trouble with why he killed the jewel guy, too. It comes up much later. At the time, I just figured Maurice offed him for the jewels; it was just greed. Of course, that would have made Maurice go from relatable to detestable, so I'm glad they didn't.

I've got Elevator to the Gallows on my shelf; I'll get to it soon.

Le Samourai I'm looking forward to immensely. I've had it recommended before. It's harder to find than some others, however, I have a source for high-quality classics: the Criterion Channel and the Criterion Collection have a lot of older films, and/or foreign films of this nature.

I stream anything I can find on Netflix, Amazon, and (if public domain) Youtube or elsewhere. If I can't find it there, I'll sign up to Criterion Channel and watch it and a bunch of other films, then cancel and wait for the next time I need to do that.

If I really can't get it elsewhere, I can buy a DVD from Criterion, although they can be expensive, so that's a last-resort.

I do a lot of bargain bin hunting, too.

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There’s a website called Kino Now.com. I purchased Un Flic and Touchez pas au Grisbi on this one. They’re not free but they do have a selection. There also is movie detective.net. They put subtitles to foreign movies. I bought a Jean Gabin movie with Brigitte Bardot from that one. I have Criterion and they’re easy to communicate with. They recommended Playtime by Jacques Tati. And I fell in love with it. I had seen his others but this one was a masterpiece.

You hit on something that I have been saying recently. Is that you really have to see some movies in a theater. I wished I had seen Silence in a theater. I always stay for the credits anyway because I look for songs and locations and they come at the end. But the movie experience is completely different. There not much you can do with these old movies tho but watch on TV unless they’re showing at a revival theater or a film festival which is what I did recently when I saw the Russian version of War and Peace. I had no idea it would take 8 hours but the theater was packed. I loved some of the battle scenes.

There’s a mode you’re in when watching certain things on TV that you condition yourself to and it’s usually binge-y stuff. Not something where you breathe in the movie. Pausing really ruins the movie.

The only thing I didn’t like about Val Kilmer in Heat was the horrible wig. It just ruined it for me. Keanu is much better now but he was good in The Gift which was around that time I think and he had the right look. I think Point Break was much earlier. But if they made him wear a wig too, I would have the same opinion. You know, Ashley Judd was good in this too. The motel room with her and DeNiro is one of my favorites. Also when Pacino meets up with the two guys Tone Loc and Ricky Harris. I used to go a lot to the restaurant DeNiro and Pacino met in. It was in Beverly Hills. It’s no longer there. The book store was in Santa Monica. No longer there either.

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Thanks for the extra resources for finding films. Detective.net seems to be down, though.

Tati's Playtime is on my "must watch" list as well. I'll get to it...

The theatre experience is really something else. It's easy to forget in our world of high-def, wide-screen TVs with robust, state-of-the-art sound systems. Home theatres get pretty close to the "real thing," but there is something special about going to the movies and seeing a show. It's the same for live theatre; it's hard to describe why it's different (I think the social aspect plays a role) but it is a different beast. I've taken advantage of arthouse/revival theatres a lot more than bigger chains lately. Movie houses play Marvel films (which is fine if that's your bag) but getting to experience films like Casablanca on the big screen is so special. When I saw Casablanca, I went with somebody who had never seen it before, and I was quite envious that her first time watching Rick give up Ilsa was just like it was meant to be seen.

I don't mind a short pause if I really need the washroom (wetting my pants would ruin the movie more, I think) but, yeah, I hate it when I'm forced to stop in the middle for an extended period of time.

Keanu had a better chance of being fine in Heat than he had in other films from that time (Dracula...).

I can't think of a weak cast member in the film. The ex-con trying like heck to go straight is one of my favourite plot lines in Heat. His story arc is so tragic. Pacino's on fire in every scene, and I love the scene with Tone Loc. Tone Loc hits this perfect level of swagger combined with a total lack of self-awareness (in the character) that makes him so believable, so naturally funny, and it's just such a great performance.

The film is so quotable, too - especially Pacino. How many people watch Heat and, at some point afterwards, yell, "She's got a GREAT ASS! And you got your head ALL THE WAY UP IT!"? I bet it's a lot.

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So, no space. It’s
Moviedetective.net and kinonow.com sorry.

The ass quote of Pacino’s was off the cuff. Not in the script. And scared the bejesus out of Azaria. Loved it. The Dennis Haybert character. The driver. Was so heartbreaking and yet I can completely see why he said yes. For that one moment, he could whip off that apron and say I’m outta here to the dick that was his boss. His woman I know thought it would have been nice if he could hang in there. But it brings me back to Woody in Match Point. Better to be lucky than good.

Keanu in Liaisons and Dracula weren’t that memorable. But My Own Private Idaho was fantastic. The Gift he was fantastic. And I love Point Break. That’s another kind of a heist movie. I think Keanu turned down Heat for the Shakespeare one. Looking at how successful his career has been. The level of which very few can achieve, I still can’t help but think what a huge mistake not being in one of the greatest movies ever.

Growing up we see Casablanca and you’re amazed each time. I know it by heart. But seeing it so much wo really seeing it as a first time brings me to a similar experience I had. I had seen Algiers (a remake of Pepe le Moko) with Hedy Lamar (who was considered for Ingrid Bergman role in Casablanca) and Boyer but it didn’t register that much with me. But I went to a French film festival and their classic movie was Pepe le Moko. A first for me. And when it had ended, there was applause and the guy next to me said - they don’t make them like that anymore. But the femme was this mesmerizing French actress Mirielle Balin. Not a happy life after WWII but before her life hit rock bottom, she was in other films with Jean Gabin. Gabin is another one with great movies. Especially, La Bete Humaine with Simone Simon of Cat People fame. His movies are great and hard to find. They’re on moviedetective.net tho.

Woody’s movies are kind of like primers of what to see. And I have to admit I have not seen much Bergman or the Italian classics, let alone the Japanese ones he mentioned in his last movie. I’d like to see these as a first time experience in a theater.

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Oh, I see. I figured out kinonow, I just didn't figure the other one for some reason. I guess I'm not such a hot detective myself, huh?

I forgot that that was Pacino's line! Great work from him, then. But, as I said, I think he's just on fire the whole picture. Not a line is delivered in less than an A+ fashion; he really cooks.

Absolutely, I know why the driver said yes. He's trying to do the right thing - really trying - and he just gets none of the breaks, pushed too far, and snaps given the moment when Neil walks up and asks if he's in. I blame the rotten boss as much as anybody else for his death.

Match Point - also an amazing picture. There's a lot of competition, so it varies, but I usually think of Match Point as the finest work Allen has done.

My Own Private Idaho, also great. Weird movie, blending Shakespearean language with the more modern stuff, but they pull it off. River Phoenix was in MOPI, so it doesn't surprise me that Reeves would go for filming a movie with one of his best friends, even if it meant turning down Michael Mann, Pacino, and De Niro. He's had a great career, yeah; in fact, one of the best. He could've been a flash-in-the-pan with Bill and Ted films, he could've washed out as a '90s action star/heartthrob, but no, he kept it going with A-list status thanks to The Matrix. Then, he cools off for a bit only to come back with John Wick. Not to mention his rep as one of the nicest guys on the planet.

Well, I mostly agree with the guy you saw Pepe with, although I might say something more like, "They almost never make them like that anymore." The state of the mainstream is not great these days. But, still, if you dig a little, you can find good stuff. It's just off the highway, so to speak.

I've seen a couple of Bergman's, and a couple of the Italian guys. I'm more familiar with Japanese filmmakers - particularly Kurosawa - and a few French works. There's so much stuff to see in the Hollywood world, let alone the world at large.

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I don’t think My Own Private Idaho was at the same time as Heat. That was 1991. And Heat was 1995. Keanu turned down Heat to go to Winnipeg, Canada to play Hamlet for a season at the Manitoba Theater Centre. I still think I would have liked to have seen him in Heat. He also turned down Charlie Sheen role in Platoon and Oliver Stone confirmed it. K said it was too violent. I see Sheen as the guy tho.

Pepe was the equivalent of Casablanca for me. I love Casablanca but it was something I saw before I knew what great films were. So Pepe was a discovery. I know there are great movies out there. That’s why I started watching foreign movies. I think I saw Breathless first time 40 yrs after it was made and on a small TV and I went crazy. It literally changed my life. I went to France. Took French. Discussed the movie with an Irish professor when there was IMDB, which was so much better than this website. So there’s always great art. But discovering the classics from any country is the way I’m going to go. I just run into problems trying to see stuff. I looked at BBC’s Sight and Sound. You can become a BFI member. I wonder if there is a way to see movies there. I’m am watching Renoir’s The Rules of the Game. But you should see Playtime. It’s free on Criterion Channel. And it is a real find. It is sooo special.

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Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying about Reeves picking one over the other. Hamlet was probably a pretty irresistible role, too. He'd have been cool in Platoon, I think. I'd like to have seen that one, actually.

I'll make sure Pepe is on my list. It's great that foreign film opened up a second language (or third? more?) and connected you to somebody like the professor. IMDb message boards were better, yeah. Livelier. We could have counted on a half a dozen people hopping into this conversation, or finding hundreds more on classic films. Moviechat has some of that, but mostly it seems to be people arguing over politics - and not even in an insightful, respectful, revealing way. I get a little bummed out that the trending pages are always people like Donald Trump and films like What is a Woman. Even when it's other films, it's overrun by political wonks (The Little Mermaid, e.g.)

For my current film diet, I'm enjoying a lot of film noir; that's my kick right now. I'll probably stick with that for a while. Then, maybe some French cinema. Either that or I might track down some great animated gems.

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Film Noir. Out of The Past. You’ve probably seen it. My top favorite. The Killers. Laura. I’ve seen every Film Noir movie as I like this genre the best. I know Woody Allen’s favorite must be Double Indemnity. And that’s probably why you saw Asphalt Jungle. Clash by Night is another one with early Monroe.

This website attracts political stuff and not many people watch the movie or any movie or even walk out of the house. I stopped writing Spoilers bc it didn’t make any difference. Actually, that’s why they shut down IMDB. I do remember with IMDB somebody over there downloaded for me all 3 seasons of Forbrydelsen. The Danish one of The Killing. It took 9 yrs to get to the US but I got to see it and it was great.

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Indeed, I have seen it, and it's a particularly good noir. Out of the Past has that crushing feeling of inevitability, yet at the same time, you are really hoping - the whole time - that he'll manage to outrun the past catching up to him. It's the stuff great tragedy always accomplishes. Plus, the ending where the deaf-mute kid realises what Jeff would want, and throws him under the bus so Ann can move on - a very tragic moment, but bittersweet, because at least Ann is finding some closure and happiness. Plus, the acting by the kid (Dickie Moore) is really something else.

It's hard to pick a favourite film noir for myself. The Maltese Falcon and The Big Sleep jockey for the top slot. Bogey is one of my favourite actors. My dilemma in picking one is that TMF has a tighter story (it's far more legible, for one thing) but TBS has Lauren Bacall. I am also a big fan of Double Indemnity. But, after watching so many lately, I might have to reevaluate my top-tier noirs.

I'm happy as long as this website doesn't go under, too. I get conversations like this one, which is great. I need a place to chat with movie enthusiasts, and I don't know a lot of them in real life.

Yeah, I blame Ghostbusters 2016 for wiping out IMDb. That message board was a dumpster fire, and indicative of the angry tribalism that ran amok over there (and here, kinda). I still do spoilers, just in case. Just for courtesy's sake.

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For me, it was Nocturnal Animals in 2016 - that’s when everything crashed. I couldn’t believe the vitriolic comments.

Did you see In A Lonely Place? With Bogart. Nicolas Ray film - that one is really serious. My favorite femme fatale was Kathie Moffat in Out of the Past and if you see Le Deuxiseme Soufflé there is a similar ending about not telling someone the true words at the end. Other femmes fatales are Kitty - Ava Gardner as Kitty Collins in The Killers - probably the best bc she was the worst. Rose in Niagara played by MM. Gilda is a great movie. Some of these movie scripts and original novels were written by Raymond Chandler, William Faulkner and Hemingway, where one wrote the novel and another wrote the script. I love Mitchum during this time. Also there was nothing like Gene Tierney and Dana Andrews in Laura - I liked those two better than Bogart and Bacall. Of course, Leave Her to Heaven is the ultimate one, but I am not sure that it is film noir. And can a film in color be noir because Niagara is definitely in color.

It’s funny, right now I am in San Francisco. And this is Hammett territory. A photo of Dash is in the bar of John’s Grill. And currently I am a block off Stockton. Near Burritt where Miles was killed.

I think if this website was to go under, it would have a long ago. There are some things on here that I can’t believe.

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I didn't notice the Nocturnal Animals board, but it's around the same time. I wonder what precipitated that rapid-fire descent into madness...

In a Lonely Place is a beautiful movie. I think of it more as a "drama" than a film noir. It's one of Bogey's best performances - witty, charming, and totally scary. It's rare that movies pull off a real-seeming human who is relatable and reprehensible, but he manages it. You "get" his leading lady's conflict, too. Brilliant movie.

Moffat's Out of the Past femme fatale is completely alluring and evil - great choice. I'll always have a soft spot for Brigid from Maltese Falcon, though. What I like about that character is how she's so dishonest that she legitimately seems weary just thinking about her lies. She's trapping herself in the spider web as much (maybe moreso) than Sam Spade.

I think a noir can be in colour. I'll check out Niagara.

It's neat that you're checking out SF. It's only right that they've got Hammett's picture in the grill.

I'm not worried about this site going under due to vitriol (it obviously can't) more worried that whoever owns the domain will eventually consider it to be not worth the time and expense of upkeep.

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Replying on main discussion.

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I moved this discussion out of the narrow columns.

For me, Bogey’s best is Caine Mutiny. I’m amazed every time I see it. Is your soft spot for Brigid in the book or with Mary Aster’s Brigid. Aster was a redhead so even in B/W they kept it true. I love Bogart’s line. “You’re good. You’re real good.”

There’s a whole history to Nicolas Ray. Gloria Grahame was married to him but had an affair with his son.

I saw a really good movie at Sacramento French Film Festival last night. Revoir Paris. And the theater was packed. It was good to see because SF is not back like it was and might never be. Except for Sam’s Grill. But it was nice to see people in a theater. And the closing movie was really good.

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Good call.

Caine Mutiny is another one I think of when I think of his best performances. I still think I was more impressed by his work in In a Lonely Place, but they're both amazing. Let's not discount his stuff in Casablanca and The Big Sleep, either, just because he's playing a character closer to his "type".

I'm usually thinking of Astor. I've read the book a couple of times, but I saw the film first, and somewhere around a dozen times, so that's pretty cemented for me. The Maltese Falcon is full of great lines. "You're good. You're real good," is certainly one of the best. I've always gotten a chuckle out of, "When you're slapped you'll take it and like it!" Or Spade setting up his intelligence and insight with, "You've got brains. Yes, you have..." I think he's already mulling over the possibilities of Miss "Wonderly".

I'll keep an eye out for Revoir Paris.

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And my favorite line of all time is “Baby, I don’t care.” Mitchum to Moffat in Out of the Past where she says before that, Don’t you believe me, Jeff? After shooting Kirk Douglas 4 times and making off with $40K. I also loved Bogart in The Barefoot Contessa - it is just such a great movie to see South of France and Italy casinos and yachts - and the storytelling. And African Queen - was great too. Such a range and variety. I think with Sabrina, though, he was cantankerous and argumentative probably because he realized he was getting older and not the guy. Beat the Devil was good too.

I looked up other Film Noir titles and there is one that is modern but it was sooooo good and it is called Brick. When I went to see this movie at the theater, they handed me a sheet that listed slang terms and their meanings. This is in a high school in Southern California - I think Encinitas or San Clemente (I’m getting the location of Veronica Mars mixed up with this one) - and it’s all there. I think brick was code for heroin. There was one really scary - to me - scene where there was a home invasion where they were in the basement and you could hear the killing going on upstairs. One False Move had that feeling too. They listed Elevator to the Gallows as film noir too - that is one of my favorite movies. And Laura. I wonder if Mississippi Mermaid would be in film noir - or maybe more Hitchcock.

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I'll have to see The Barefoot Contessa. I haven't watched that one yet. Beat the Devil and Sabrina are both great, though. I liked him in Sabrina. I laughed like a maniac when you see him in the background jumping up and down on the windshield to prove it's unbreakable. He rarely does roles like that, and I enjoyed it thoroughly. Of course, you're right: he was very, very much out of character on that one.

Brick was great. I'm due for a rewatch on that one. Brick is one of the reasons I never turned on Rian Johnson, no matter how crummy I found The Last Jedi. It's a solid neo-noir film and the high school context keeps it feeling fun and fresh without sacrificing the integrity of the noir vibe.

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I didn’t mean Bogart’s character was cantankerous and argumentative. I meant that he was those things to everyone on the set of Sabrina. His character was initially offered to Cary Grant who turned it down. He called Holden, Smiling Jim. And made fun of Hepburn. She said when he tried to kiss her….

I wasn’t a big follower of Star Wars down the line. I liked the early ones. Seeing Luke and Carrie (especially Carrie) at this point in time made me retch. I don’t think I had an opinion about this movie which is unlike me. I did like Blade Runner 2049. A lot. I saw it twice back to back. Rian got a lot of flack for Knives Out which I enjoyed. I like the first better. I think he’s talented. I’m glad he around.

I don’t know how they decide what TV series gets more seasons or more movies get sequels. Well, I do. It’s money and an audience. But the ones I like never get a part two or another season. Like Master and Commander. The Nice Guys. HBO’s Rome. I really like Zen filmed in Rome. And them some great ones go off the rails like Dexter. Homeland (rescued in last season). Peaky Blinders. But others go on endlessly. I guess I will watch new Indiana Jones. But really?

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Oh, I see. Reading back your original message, yeah, that makes sense. It's too bad that Bogey could be such a monster. Apparently his Jekyll-and-Hyde type character in In a Lonely Place is the closest he ever played to himself. Still, he had people who dearly loved him, so he couldn't have been all bad.

It does seem like more of a Cary Grant role. Maybe I'm just thinking of him with Hepburn in Charade. Regardless of how cynical Bogart was feeling about it, I'd stand by his performance; he does a really great job with it.

I'm with you: I like the first three Star Wars films - the original three - and that's about it. I've heard the Clone Wars TV series is good, but I haven't checked it out. I liked a couple of EU novels, but I only read a few of them. SW took a big hit as a Saga with the Prequels. With every film after the first three, Star Wars just got a little less special - less of an "event". The Sequels are a mess.

Carrie Fisher did seem a lot older than her fellow cast members, even though Harrison Ford was definitely older in the literal sense. She just had a rough life, aged hard. It's not surprising that she died early. Tragic, certainly, but not surprising.

I really liked Mark Hamill's performance in TLJ, even if I wasn't a fan of the material. Dude is a better actor than he gets credit for.

I'm with you on Rian, too; he's a good director. I've enjoyed Brick, Looper, Knives Out, and The Brothers Bloom. I haven't seen Glass Onion yet, but I've heard good things.

Blade Runner 2049 was a solid sequel. It got the tone right, advanced the story in a logical way, didn't try to reinvent the wheel nor rely mostly on nostalgia... Great film.

Yeah, money's the only logic, but even then you have to ask what they're thinking half the time. Who green-lit a Willow TV series? Did they really think that was going to get people hooked on Disney+? I haven't seen Master and Commander yet, but I will. The Nice Guys was an amazing film - super underrated. I assume you've seen Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang? It's very much like The Nice Guys in many respects.

Of course, I'd rather have two or three great seasons of TV than eight mediocre ones. Some shows don't know when to get out. Two shows that stayed consistently amazing (in my opinion) throughout their runs were Breaking Bad and Mad Men. Neither show had 20+ episode seasons, both lasted around six seasons (I think?) and I always got the impression that the showrunners and creatives on those shows were only telling stories they wanted to tell. Glorious stuff.

I really only like Raiders of the Lost Ark. Last Crusade is okay, but I really dislike Temple of Doom. I found Short-Round and Willie annoying. I never bothered with Crystal Skull, and I will definitely avoid Dial of Destiny.

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I agree with you.

Bogart was a great person and actor. He didn’t live that long. I have not seen The Treasure of the Sierra Madre. And I didn’t see Kiss Kiss Bang Bang.

Luke - Mark Hamill - was great in Jedi movie. I just don’t know why we have to see things after the story was told. 20-30 years later. Blade Runner 2049 is the exception.

AMC did Breaking Bad and Mad Men. They gave Mad Men’s Matthew Weiner a lot of trouble. It works better for a series if one person is in charge from start to finish. Weiner knew the ending of his show at the very start. BB and MM are two great series. So were The Sopranos with the great David Chase and The Wire. Justified. Boardwalk Empire. More recently, Fincher’s Mindhunter.

But the greatest are the two French ones. Spiral aka Engrenages. And Le Bureau des Légendes. One is about Parisian cops with a female lead and the other is the greatest spy story of one spy, Malotru.

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From what I've read, Bogart was like everybody else: he had his faults, but was mostly a good guy. I think I might've heard about Humphrey and Lena Horne, but I had forgotten about it. Good to know some of the Hollywood types aren't all bad.

I'd recommend both Treasure of the Sierra Madre and Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang. They're both excellent films. If you like The Nice Guys, KKBB will definitely appeal. I'd be interested to hear what you think of them both. As for Treasure of the Sierra Madre, it's a classic for a reason. Whole other league, that one.

AMC did good work with BB and MM. Both among my favourite TV series of all time.

It doesn't surprise me that Weiner knew where he was going. The ending for MM is perfect. The beginning sets up Don's journey perfectly. I love every minute of that show.

I agree completely that a focused showrunner at the top of the food chain brings creative enterprises together. I wish Hollywood respected writers more. Directors get a tonne of credit, but the person who first conceived of the story is often sidelined.

I haven't seen The Sopranos or The Wire (I know, I should). Rome was great, as was Justified. I have neither seen nor read Outlander. Vikings is good, but for my "ancient sword bros" TV, I actually prefer The Last Kingdom on Netflix.

I think of the Brit TV you mention I've only seen The Hour, but I enjoyed it immensely.

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I think The Hour was supposed to similar to Mad Men. The great thing about Mad Men is the quality of Draper’s pitches as head of creative. The finale in California and the Coca Cola ad. They had to get permission from Coca Cola and it took 2 years. If not, the ending would be completely different.

You don’t have to see Outlander. It’s not that good. Some women really love it. I think it’s laughable and stupid. The scenes of Scotland are however beautiful. Scotland got a lot of foot traffic because of this series and Braveheart. Good for tourism but many old artifacts have been trampled on.

A good noir film is Clash by Night. Just thought I mentioned that one. Stanwyck is in it and an early Monroe. It looks like 8-1/2 is playing at the old revival theater near me, as well as Laura. I hope I get there. At least for 8-1/2. I think The Sopranos is probably the best thing ever to be on TV. The Wire is very difficult to watch. It is so real and these actors are phenomenal and great finds., just as you mentioned the swagger of Tone Loc in Heat. Some are Brits playing Americans better than Americans, i.e., Dominic West and Idris. But Michael K. Williams as Omar is probably the best character ever only surpassed by the same actor as Chalky White in Boardwalk.

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The Hour did share some similarities with Mad Men, but whatever the intent, they certainly wound up having completely different tones. I'm glad MM got the permission - that was a perfect ending. To me, Mad Men is all about the pursuit of happiness and the "American Dream". It's Don flailing around looking for joy in all the wrong places; he thinks it's money or sex or power. It's not. His identity crisis hits a head and when he starts breaking up, it's tragic, but it's a necessary phase in his evolution as a person searching for truth and meaning in life.

I'll make sure Clash by Night graces my list.

8 1/2 is incredible. I saw it for the first time in a hotel room while I was on the road ages ago. Hotel TV was always fun to me - when it was channels unrecognized and you had to find something else that was on other than whatever you'd usually watch. That was fun. Anyway, in one of those mists of unfamiliar television, I found 8 1/2 and it is one of those unique gems that filmmakers leave every now and then.

I'd like to check out The Sopranos and The Wire sometime. Boardwalk Empire does look neat, too.

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Moving to left again. Literally.

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This thread is moving like a typewriter. WAPWAPWAPWAP-CA-CHING-CLICK. The carriage moves over, hit the margin, push the lever...

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The Sopranos and Mad Men are two different series and probably the best we’ll ever get.

What is your favorite episode of MM? Mine was The Suitcase. The Kodak pitch was great. Draper’s journey was also a timeline that goes from “50s-60s” into the “60s-70s” - the biggest changes in culture. It reminded me of the movie The Wanderers with Ken Wahl and Karen Allen in the Bronx in early 60s when guys wore pompadours (a bit like West Side story here) listening to Dion all of a sudden - toward the end, you hear Dylan in a bar singing “The Times They are a-Changing.”

Of all the women Draper was involved with, who were the ones? I really loved Maggie Siff in this and I liked that they brought her back for one episode. But I don’t know if there was one person who he really liked. I thought maybe it was the schoolteacher, Suzanne. I loved how he was with one and marries someone else on a whim. I also loved the hobo episode and the hobo code. I like when his life spiraled downward in his first marriage and with alcohol and women, and he’s in that dump, and he just started writing his pitch to get the company on track. I think Jon Hamm was perfect for this role as I don’t think he is really a very good actor. They initially wanted Thomas Jane - who would have been great as well and I think the real Don Draper.

I will make sure I get to this screening of 8-1/2. With Boardwalk, it was well written and Scorsese was involved. They originally wanted James Gandolfini (I bet he turned it down - from one mob boss to another - I don’t see it happening) who most resembles Nucky Thompson, but Scorsese’s advice was to go with the person that’s easy to get along with him. I believe Steve Buscesmi, although an excellent actor, was horribly miscast. I think this is Scorcese’s greatest flaw and it’s his casting. I think for him when he makes a film, of course he needs backing, but I think he likes being with certain people over and over again who actually don’t fit. Anyway, the great one In Boardwalk at the beginning was Michael Pitt - and then they fired him. I think he was difficult. At this point, I stopped watching and picked up on it a year later and thought the writing was great. The women were the best. Gretchen Moll was the full circle on this one with the great ending. And Kelly Macdonald.

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I like to keep an open mind, but yeah, for drama series, Mad Men is as top-tier as they come. Hard to compare it to some other genres, though. Is it a better show than Monty Python's Flying Circus? I don't know. What rubric could allow for both shows' idiosyncracies?

The Suitcase is probably the best one, yeah. Although, for single "moments" in the show, the Carousel slide projector and Don breaking down in the Hershey meeting are really great. But, then again... I'm now flooding with great memories of the show, like Peggy calling Stan's bluff and playing a game of nudity chicken. I don't need to say anything more than "Lawn mower" to bring back one scene...

I haven't seen The Wanderers, but yeah, the passage of time as the values of the ages change was a great backdrop for MM. Side-note: I love Dylan's The Times, They Are A-Changin'.

Draper's best girls...? Rachel (Schiff) would have to be top-three. I liked her a lot; great character. I was sorry that they didn't use her more than they did, but yeah, it was great that they had her back for a minute. For which one he loved, if any, I think the closest he came was Faye - the consultant woman - but I'm not sure he loved any of them. For me, Don's love life is a wreck because he's wrestlers himself and doesn't know who he is. He "gets" Betty, who is necessary for his suburban '50s checklist, but her beauty and wealth were just superficial "wants" he thought he needed. Faye challenges Don, which I think bothers him because he's confronting aspects of himself he doesn't want to deal with, so he leaves her. I think she was, for that reason, maybe the closest to forming a real connection with Draper - before he pushed her away.

Oh, unless we're counting Anna Draper. Their love was platonic (well, for Don; I always got the vibe that Anna wished she could get out of the friend zone...) but that's the person Don loved most in the show. No surprise, Anna's also (in my opinion) the best human being on Mad Men.

CONT.

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Jon Hamm was perfect for Don. I thought he could have taken over the role of Batman. Assuming he could do the accent, he's also the only American I can think of who I'd buy as James Bond. Hamm is underused, although it's always a delight to see him in something funny. He's in Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, and one of his scenes has me - to this day - occasionally shouting "KARATE! KARATE-KARATE!" because of how funny it was.

Interesting... I've never thought of Scorsese as having flawed casting, but now that you mention it... Yeah, I can see where the actors he picks don't always fit perfectly into their roles. Although, I'll go on record here saying that I'm about the only person on the planet who actually liked Cameron Diaz in Gangs of New York. With that said, I can also see where other actors might have pushed that role further than Diaz did.

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My first ever viewing of 8-1/2 was exhilarating. And there was a show of hands for it being a first for others at this theater. The guy who introduced it had the same experience as you did. He said it blew his mind when he was 16 or maybe when he saw it 16 years ago. I wasn’t that much in awe of it. I really hate to say that but I would be false if I didn’t. And yet I recently saw Playtime (1967) and absolutely fell in love with it. Apparently, 8-1/2 has also slipped on the best movies with critics and the S&S list too. This movie rates higher with directors It’s no longer in the top 10. I am still planning to see more Fellini movies. Can I say that it reminded me of All That Jazz, because I thought that Guido was going to have a heart attack and die in the movie. This Friday, at a revival theater I will see The Leopard for the first time.

I thought it was interesting that Fellini kept talking about truth and then would have Marcello play him and Anouk play his wife. The physical contrasts are amazing. Fellini lived large. He resembles Laird Cregar. But I loved the images of his childhood the best. And the vulgar (to some) prostitute dancing on the empty beach who I thought in her own way was beautiful. And I loved Claudia Cardinale. “You don’t know how to love.” Repeatedly. And she walked like a whisper - just like Brigitte Bardot. They’re nothing about this movie that I disliked. I liked everything and it plays in my head - but I didn’t experience that magic.

I don’t see Jon Hamm as James Bond - I see him in a commercial looking like James Bond holding with a glass of Scotch.

I think casting with Scorsese is problematic when he tries to put DeNiro and DiCaprio into all of his movies. I know some French directors would choose locations of their films based on the food of the region. In this way, he chooses the people he’d most like to be with and they just happened to be big stars and great actors. But more often than not, they are not really right for the role. I loved The Irishman. But the only one who was cast correctly was Joe Pesci. DeNiro just isn’t Irish enough and Pacino isn’t Hoffa.

I am a huge fan of Scorsese. He is a true lover of film. He’s promoted a lot of other films. I recall Purple Noon. He also liked Black Narcissus - this is a film I love. He is going to make a bio of Jerry Garcia and thank god it isn’t DiCaprio, but Jonah Hill. Showing in July in the theater where I saw 8-1/2 will be his own personal copy of Apocalypse Now in 70 mm. I wonder if it’s the redux version. I am going to join the American Cinematheque so I can see this. Apocalypse Now Redux is one of my absolute favorites - and when you talk about magic in a theater - I was transported with this one. Same with Mulholland Drive, and A Prophet. In the theater magic.

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I'm glad you enjoyed 8 1/2, and the experience, even if it didn't monopolize your mind as it did mine. To each their own. I really enjoy "meta" story presentation that blurs lines, so Fellini doing such an autobiographical work interested me. There was just something stylishly spellbinding about it for me. The prostitute scene has to be one of the most memorable in the film. It's a moment of real life truth. Okay, maybe not universal for every boy to sneak off and have a whore dance around for him, but certainly universal to start feeling the call of sexuality within oneself and to start to find it in the obscure places - places that are taboo, embarrassing to be seen at, and yet freeing because they let one explore a part of oneself that is just awakening. It's a new world of growing up, and in a way, it must be experienced on the fringe, as it were.

I'm also grateful to have seen 8 1/2 because it made me love Stardust Memories more once I saw that film. While it's not a beat-for-beat or parody of 8 1/2, Stardust Memories is definitely Woody Allen riffing on Fellini's classic. Of course, it also helped me find Nine - the musical version - to be mostly contemptuous. It's a flailing mess that seems to miss the point. Very disappointing, especially with Daniel Day Lewis in the lead - not to mention a pretty stacked supporting cast as well.

Most people don't see Hamm as Bond, either, but for me, I'd let him take a stab at it. He might be a bit old these days. The fun of James Bond, of course, is that he's reinvented every several years, so I can always just relax and enjoy each incarnation for what it is on its own terms.

My favourite Scorsese film is Silence - an unusual choice. I see what you mean about casting, although with The Irishman, I felt like the performances were so strong that I could set aside some of the fudging done to fit guys like De Niro into the lead role. I thought De Niro did a great work with that movie.

Silence was cinema magic for me.

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I saw Nine and thought it was about 9 women. I knew it was an adaptation of Fellini’s 8-1/2. And all through 8-1/2, I was counting the top 8. Who was 1/2? I feel incredibly stupid. I am thinking of this movie all the time now. I was told by my neighbor that I should see Armacord before I see others. I love Woody, and I haven’t seen Stardust Memories. He told me there are other movies of Allen’s which were adaptations. I haven’t seen these as well. Sweet and Low Down. Deconstructing Harry. Love and Death. I’m a big fan of Woody Allen.

Bond actor should be around 31. With five films every 3 years. Americans are horrible with accents. Except for Streep.

I did love The Irishman very much. Some news station gave it a bad time. Everything is political and if one station says not to see it, people follow. I have friends who said as such. They are glued to Hallmark and YouTube. And Pets do funny things. DeNiro was great in this movie. I love Pacino but he was over the top for me. My Pacino favorites are Dog Day Afternoon and Glengarry Glen Ross. He remade Insomnia but I like Stellan’s better. I guess there was an original Italian movie, The Scent of a Woman but that’s not available anywhere. I could be wrong. Somewhere along the way he is just doing the same guy as in Heat. And he is a great actor and presence. And I loved seeing both. I didn’t care about the age. But I still thought Pesci stole the show.

What is your definition on film noir? When I saw Laura last weekend before 8-1/2. They’re doing a whole series on it. Mostly the film noir femme fatales and their fashion. I wasn’t there for the first one but I’ve seen it. Shanghai Gesture. And everyone loves this one, Laura. Next is The Killers. Just wondering. These movies are chosen for their time period. Post WW II.

I started watching The Last Kingdom. And I love it. The first episode was so jam packed. Losing major characters right off the bat. Fantastic. 5 seasons. I then noticed there is a director’s cut for The Last Kingdom. I wonder?

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That's very funny. "Who's the 1/2 woman!?"

I'm putting Armacord on my list now.

Stardust Memories I would highly recommend. Insightful, interesting, personal, and still finds time to be funny.

I'm a huge Woody Allen fan, too. I have yet to see a film of his that I don't enjoy. Even stuff like Curse of the Jade Scorpion. It's still funny and entertaining. Also, with COTJS, watch it in black-and-white. It's shot like an old, 1930s film, and black-and-white makes it pop.

I agree: early 30s for a Bond actor. Generally, yeah, Americans aren't great, but some are decent with accents. Alan Tudyk seems to good. I haven't heard Jon Hamm do accents, so I don't know if he could or not.

I think some people were put off by the de-aging CGI in the Irishman. The performances are so darn good that I didn't care.

Well, Youtube can be used very well. I tune in to a few philosophy channels, science channels, and music instruction channels - very educational stuff. I like to expand my grey matter.

Fair enough, but I did love Pacino. When he was larger-than-life, it was when his character was playing a persona, too. There was a "real guy" version of Hoffa that he only revealed in private (in the film, anyway; don't know about real life).

Dog Day Afternoon is incredible. So is Glengarry Glen Ross. My favourite Pacino performances are probably Heat - in which he is BIG, but I would say always appropriately - and Godfather. I will give a bit of a nod to Dick Tracy, too; he's just having so much fun with that. It's a perfect performance for a comic book film.

Pesci's great. He was much more subtle than he normally is - quieter. It worked.

Noir is hard to pin down... It's a collection of elements, but they don't all need to be present. It's should have that cynical tone, world-weary, and tinged with German Expressionism. Femme Fatale is almost required. I'd say it should be a thriller, or close to it. If not, a mystery. Detective work is often involved. The gritty, tough hero. Morality should be grim. Nighttime setting helps. A lot of noir also has a bunch of quirky, interesting side characters (like the book store girl in The Big Sleep). A lot have voice-overs, but I think most don't. Detectives feature, usually. If not, cops, gangsters, or newspaper reporters. I'm not sure what makes a film fit perfectly. It's almost a "know it when you see it." Genre.

Last Kingdom is great! I'm glad you're digging it! It's a wonderful show, great production values, hits hard, and yeah, fast-paced. Wonderful cast of characters, too. I'm a sucker for those medieval sword-and-guts shows.

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I just saw yesterday The Leopard 1963. The longer version. Dubbed in Italian or maybe Sicilian. Saw Scorcese’s name in beginning. So this movie was out of this world for me. I wish I could go see it again. A masterpiece. A masterpiece. I did not read up on it. Every time it was on TV I didn’t watch it because of the English dubbing. I just feel to give these older ones a chance, at the theater is a must. Afterwards I read Pauline Kael and Ebert’s reviews just to fill in. I wasn’t aware of the history of the unification of Italy. Or the Bourbons of Sicily. At one point, the ball scene at the end. The most magnificent of anything I’ve ever seen kind of reminded me of Scorcese’s Age of Innocence. Another great one by the Master. And I was thinking, in a lot of French movies. And I love French cinema but the French do a tremendous amount of voiceovers. Almost becomes an audiobook. In this last scene in The Leopard, you as a viewer pick up on all the gestures. The body movements. the dialogue or rather the lack of dialogue - just key words, like Elsa. The dancing. Room to room. Facial expressions. You read scenes to pick up on HIS (Lancaster) fantastic story which was the one, the historical saga, a person’s true nature (the leopard, the lion, the jackal or the sheep), and of course, the politics. But Visconti manages to do all without a voiceover. Lancaster was excellent. His character was considered old at 45 for this time period. And so he reflects. All by watching him.

You probably like Nic Cage then in his over the top roles. And Tom Hardy. All great like Pacino. But their personality trumps the movie’s character. And people love it. I don’t. But I did love the movie Pig. A lot.

I’m still confused on film noir. Is Asphalt Jungle. Is Mildred Pierce. Clash by Night. I have to see This Gun for Hire. Is Roger Avary’s Killing Zoe with Tarantino as producer. When describing. Some say crime noir. American noir. Neo noir. I think a lot has to do with noir. What exactly is noir. A mood? If it is not in b/w.

I don’t know why - in reference to The Last Kingdom - I am partial to the Danes. So far. Oh, and then going along with that, there is Nordic Noir.

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Really liked The Leopard, huh? It sounds great.

I do enjoy Nic Cage. What I love about Cage is that he is totally fearless as an actor. Actors make choices with their characters and Nicolas Cage always makes bold, brassy choices. He can do subtle, he can do crazy, but he can't do a role where you want to ignore him. That's respectable, in my opinion. I value all different kinds of acting. Not saying Cage hasn't been in some CLUNKER movies, just that he always seems to know the assignment. Pig is on my list. I enjoyed Color Out of Space a lot, for recent Cage movies. Although, as a Lovecraft adaptation, it is... upsetting.

No worries; I think Noir is kinda inherently confusing. It was a term made up by Nino Frank to describe certain American films, but it wasn't adopted or noticed by American filmmakers for a couple decades after Frank came up with it. Consequently, the whole era of noir (late '30s to '50s) basically slipped by without knowing it existed. All of the classic noir films were made by people who didn't know it was going to be a genre. Nobody set out to make a noir. They made thrillers or melodramas.

To me, for a film to fit the bill, it must have certain elements:

1. A dark tone - cynical, if not outright pessimistic.
2. An ambiance that is stylized and grim - chiaroscuro lighting, expressionist influences, etc.
3. A hardboiled hero - usually a detective (or filling that role), but not necessarily. A tough guy for tough times. He usually has a moral code, even if he struggles to maintain it. His morality is coloured with grey. World-weary.
4. A femme fatale - could be good or bad, but should have that tinge of danger and sex. Often betrays or double-crosses, doesn't have to.
5. Subject matter should be charged - thriller or melodrama territory. Death is around the corner in a noir. You can't have a low-stakes noir.
6. Mostly deals with morally grey or bad people - a couple good apples mixed in. Criminal underworlds or scuzzy jazz clubs are settings.

Additional elements that noir often has are voiceovers; a heavy amount of rain/night scenes; pessimistic, tragic, or at least mixed-bag endings; and quippy patter for dialogue (great one-liners).

The trick with noir is, because it was never defined until after it was all over, not every noir has all elements or even all "main" elements. However, regardless of the parts used, they will always add up to the whole: that film noir uses stylised characters and dialogue, and expressionistic (or melodramatic) sets and lighting to show a generally pessimistic world.

That is what film noir is, as best I can say (hopefully clearly; if not, I'll try to clarify).

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This is a really good list of film noir qualifications. The chiaroscuro lighting is more difficult with color. I didn’t know of Nino Frank. He mentions some of the movies I mentioned to you earlier with Jean Gabin - even Pepe le Moko and La bete humaine. They are just dark.

The chiaroscuro lighting seems to apply to black and white - but in color - how does it work? Se7en and Mulholland Drive have those sepia tones - but I am not sure that would qualify these movies as film noir. And, yet I think Niagara would be one. It was 1952 but it has a lot of color because of the Falls.

A lot of the old ones are dark - with death around the corner - but they end up kind of happy. Like Laura.

So of the newer ones - do you think these qualify - using your definitions. Some might not, but…

The Long Goodbye. LA Confidential. Chinatown. After Dark, My Sweet. The Grifters. Devil in a Blue Dress, Blood Simple, Red Rock West. Last Seduction. Point Blank or Payback. Body Heat. Bound. U-turn. Brick.

Actually, Mississippi Mermaid would be one. Actually, that’s more Hitchcock. Truffaut’s Confidentially Yours.

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Thanks. I wrote a paper on film noir back in my university days. I don't remember the grade I got, but I don't think it was too bad. It's a weird genre or type of film to pin down (which seems appropriate to me, for some reason).

In colour, I think you just get a lot of shadows and contrast. I haven't seen Niagara yet, but I have heard that it's a rare film in that it is classic noir but in colour. The other films you mention - Se7en and Mulholland Drive - are usually put on lists of "neo-noir". There isn't really a solid definition for what makes it "neo" either, but as a general rule-of-thumb, most neo-noir come after 1960. 1930s, 40s, and 50s are the "classics". Although, again, these aren't hard-and-fast rules.

I think that the mix of factors that allowed for noir rose up and died off a few times, but generally-speaking, the filmmakers of the original noir genre didn't realise they were making it and once they became conscious of it, they could only replicate it in homage - and those are the neo-noirs.

Some do end happily. I don't ask that every noir have every element. I think many or even most of them end on a bittersweet note. The Maltese Falcon, for instance, has parts that are good and bad for Sam.

All the ones you've listed (that I've seen) would qualify as neo-noir. Chinatown might be the best of them, although I really like The Long Goodbye, as well.

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I knew this was a paper. It’s excellent.

I think Film Noir works better for those films in 40s and early 50s BW. Anything after that, is either set in that time period or has some of the same noir elements but it just isn’t the same or it is a different kind of detective crime movie. The French must have gone crazy with American films in 1946.

I do think that Payback comes the closest - because it has that weird monochromatic lighting; it’s very dark and has that clipped wise-cracking speech and despair and paranoia and menace is everywhere and it’s a great story. The Long Goodbye is an excellent book - one of Chandler’s later novels, and I think Robert Altman is fantastic (I loved Short Cuts) - The Long Goodbye was a very good movie also. Easy Rawlins is a great LA detective series and very much like Chandler. After Dark, My Sweet and The Grifters were written in the 50s by Jim Thompson - so that’s their connection. Did you ever see Bound by the Wachowski Bros.? Or is it Sisters now - it was before they did Matrix - and it is one of the best and lesser known movies. But generally after the mid-50s, it would be neo noir - I agree with you. I just saw Asteroid City. Speaking of the 50s.

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Thanks!

Yeah, I do think noir looks better in B&W, I think it's more suited to that look. I really like films in black-and-white, too, just in-general. Like Woody Allen's Manhattan, for instance. I do think it extends to the '50s; plenty of B&W films still in the '50s, and a lot of good noir. Touch of Evil, for instance, was made in the late '50s, is a great noir, and is (of course) in black-and-white.

Payback is a really great film. I always felt it was far more true to the Max Payne spirit than the actual movie was. Max Payne was a video game that was heavily influenced by noir. It had a terrific tongue-in-cheek approach where it was about 80% serious and 20% subversion of noir or lightly having fun with the genre - always from a place of love. Payback strikes me as the same; it's a movie that's both a pretty good noir and also a bit of a jokey version of the genre. It's not quite a parody, but it's somewhere in that region.

The Long Goodbye got away with a lot by making Marlowe a '40s man in a '70s world. It let Altman have fun with the genre, embrace it, and also comment on it a little bit. It was actually a neat way to highlight how comparatively moral the PIs in the old noirs really were. They seem morally dubious sometimes, but when we see Marlowe's "old fashioned" moral code juxtaposed with a then-modern setting, we can see how good morality is never outdated, and these guys always were the good guys (if a little rough around the edges). It's almost like Don Quixote. He's ridiculous with the knight thing, but also, he has a point: chivalry and nobility and honour are still useful, and maybe it's a good idea to not get too cynical and forget that. Ironically, this love letter to optimism was contained within a very cynical genre... Altman's got a superb mind.

I haven't seen Bound, but it's on my list and I intend to check it out someday. It was the film that WB gave to the Wachowskis (then Brothers, now Sisters) to prove they could handle the drivers' seats. Warner Bros. wasn't just going to handle the other WB (Wachowski Brothers) $100 million dollars to do The Matrix without any sort of test. They passed with flying colours with Bound, which outperformed similar erotic thriller/heist movies released at the same time - and with a fraction of the budget!

I'm looking forward to seeing Asteroid City. I like Wes Anderson's stuff a lot.

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Never heard of Max Payne. So when you say , “I always felt it was far more true to the Max Payne spirit than the actual movie was.” What do you mean by actual movie - Point Blank?

I forgot Touch of Evil was 1958. And then there’s Anatomy of a Murder - one of the best movies ever - 1959. B/W. And film noir as well.

Did you think that Matrix ripped off Dark City to some extent?

Asteroid City - the sets - the designs - how does he do it???? You talk about Stars Wars fantasy world, there should be a Wes Anderson world. What does he do with his sets after the movie? I think Asteroid City is an homage to the American 50s. I got spurs that jingle jangle jingle. My favorite Wes Anderson movie is everybody’s least favorite, The French Dispatch. I saw it twice when it came out. This little cafe off of Melrose in West Hollywood did a list of 4 coffee beverages celebrating that movie. I almost called French Dispatch, French Press - and then there’s The Grand Budapest Hotel. Fantastic. If you can believe it, I have not seen The Royal Tenenbaums or Rushmore.

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A quick rundown: Max Payne was a video game as I described - noirish, playful but very dark, and influenced by then-current action films like The Matrix with bullet time game mechanics, as well as comic books. I enjoyed it very much. I actually hadn't seen Payback yet, and I wouldn't see it for a few years. When I did, I felt it was similar to Max Payne. After that, they made a movie of Max Payne starring Mark Wahlberg. It was stuck in development hell for years and, when it finally arrived, this painful process showed. It lost all of the snarky fun of the game and replaced it with try-hard "cool" and "edginess". It didn't feel good. They also cast Mila Kunis as the femme fatale, and between That '70s Show and Family Guy, I just couldn't take her seriously as the sultry siren/action girl she needed to be.

The writing was mediocre, the whole thing was a pretty run-of-the-mill action movie, and it was very disappointing.

From my recent plunge into my noir lists I've accumulated over the years, as well as my old love of the genre, I can't recall it extending into the '60s. It sorta died off in the '50s - in terms of popularity - I guess as colour went in. Of course, as the American world became more optimistic throughout that decade, the desire for the catharsis of noir dwindled, too.

I guess Beatlemania and noir don't mix. I think the neo-noir surfaced as the Summer of Love died at Altamont and Vietnam plodded on and on.

I don't think The Matrix ripped off Dark City. They get that a lot because of similar subject matter (dark dream world, strange overlords, mind-over-matter powers) but the screenplays that dictated thematic similarities would have been in-place by the time the Wachowskis would have been able to see DC. Of course, they might have read the screenplay or spoken to Alex Proyas about it. That's always possible.

I think they get that a lot because they shared sets. But, no, ultimately, I think they were both (or all three, as it were) influenced by the same sources. They both took inspiration from the same predecessors in sci-fi and comic books, and we wound up with similar films. If anything, I’d expect that the Wachowskis would have been influenced by Proyas’ The Crow – or even the original comic book by James O’Barr – as much or moreso than Dark City.

Anderson is a terrific, inventive filmmaker with such a wonderful, unique style. I haven’t seen a film of his I haven’t liked, although I will say that I thought The Grand Budapest Hotel was pushing it as far as “peak Anderson.” Any more indulgent in his personal style and it might get a little tiresome. I’m not saying TGBH was bad – I loved it – just that it was steeped so heavily in Anderson’s quirks that to push further might sacrifice actual story quality.

I can certainly believe you haven’t seen all his films. There are plenty of missing films in my viewing history, and anybody’s, I should think. There are simply too many movies to expect any one person to have seen them all. Goodness, you’d have to have watched a movie a week since 1950 to keep up. More these days, with all the streaming stuff coming out.

I saw Rushmore on an aeroplane. Anderson’s visual sense was still lovely on the small screen. It’s a nice movie, although it’s definitely an early work; it’s not fully immersed in his style. A favourite is hard to pick, but I’m awfully fond of The Darjeeling Limited. I haven’t seen The French Dispatch. I’ll look it up. I also really like Isle of Dogs. I liked that one more than his other animated film, The Fantastic Mr. Fox, which is also great. Oh, and I think The Life Aquatic might be his funniest film, although perhaps not his best. They’re all great, though.

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Going left.

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Since Film Noir couldn’t last forever, that it morphs into something else slowly and then there’s a new style - I think it was mainly due to color. Technically, noir existed as early as the 20s. Hammett. Chandler. Cain. All wrote short stories for The Black Mask. It’s fun to read these btw. But it may be Beatlemania. Or Vietnam. But also the sign of the times as reflected in Mad Men too. In US, I think McQueen changed everything. Especially with Bullitt. SF was also highlighted, and you can see that in The Conversation and Point Blank. Point Blank was the first movie of Walker who became Porter 30 years later in Payback. As far as swinging London in the 60s, Antonioni’s Blow-up is masterful.

We both probably missed the old noir and when we something saw that was similar, we rejoiced. You with Max Payne. I never knew about this or the film. Wahlberg can go either way with me. Mostly the other. But I was drawn to a TV series that was the closest to noir more than I’ve ever seen. And it was Veronica Mars. So brilliantly done.

I think they might have pulled a lot more than you think from Dark City. Matrix 2 was not ok but not really a disaster, and 3 was awful. No one seems to know when to end on a good note for any good movie for the sake of art. in the case of Matrix, maybe there was no DC 2 to help them along.

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Yeah, noir changed as it went along - blissfully unaware it was its own genre. You're right, of course, noir existed in pulp magazines and paperback thrillers before it hit the screen. Those detective stories are proto-noir, though. Or, at the very least, lit noir instead of film noir. I've read a few myself. Chandler and Hammett are writers I point to - along with Dickens and Shakespeare - for how to take the task of being a hack writer and do it so well that it becomes high art again. These guys wrote to pay bills, but they never let that affect their prose. They brought the A-game every time, respected their audiences, and did some really special work. Although, on the page I prefer The Thin Man to The Big Sleep...

I don't think it was any one thing, but I think that the '50s saw optimism increasing in the middle-class American mind, and that slowly dragged noir out of interest. You don't seek as much catharsis for problems you're not seeing. Of course, there's a whole other speculation on how the war and post-war period affected noir. A lot of noir deals with veterans' issues and ex-military guys. Is that because they wrote for the times? Or did the times build noir?

Bullitt and McQueen were so cool. I also love The Conversation. That's a true study in paranoia.

Another consideration: in the '60s and '70s, cinema verite was in-vogue, which replaced highly stylized looks like the redone expressionism of noir.

I haven't seen Point Blank, or if I have, I can't remember it.

Wahlberg is hit-or-miss with me, too. He's no good in MP, but Max Payne isn't good material, so it'd be hard to elevate, even for a better actor. I loved him in The Departed, though. "Oh, who are you?" "I'm the guy who did his job. You must be the other guy!"

I've heard Veronica Mars is superb. Kristen Bell is excellent. I loved her in The Good Place (not noir at all). Brick is another good high school noir...

Maybe they did pull more from Dark City. I could believe it. I think that their problem with The Matrix: Reloaded was that they looked at the first film and what people loved about it. Everybody wouldn't shut up about the technology (the bullet time stuff) and the philosophical musings. They dialed it up to 11, having people kung fu fight in a "burly brawl" of 100 Smiths and they'd bookend the fights with philosophical discussions.

The first movie epitomized "show, don't tell." They didn't talk about brain-in-a-vat theories or Plato's allegory of the cave, they just made a story that illustrated it. The fights moved the story forward. In the second film, they feel like breaks from the story to get in an obligatory fight.

Frankly, I think they came up with a great story and didn't know where to take it. Instead of the logical next-step, they tried to just do the first movie at high-octane levels. They tried to please fans too much... Maybe a lack of source material hurt them, too, but I don't think they ripped off Dark City. Or, at least, they used it along with other sci-fi like Alien and books like Alice in Wonderland. They used it all up in the first one and couldn't expand it for the second.

There was a woman who claimed they ripped her off and stole the story, and that that was why the 2nd and 3rd Matrix pictures suffered - the Wachowskis never knew what to do about it. Sophia something. I don't remember. I looked into it and basically felt like she was lying. She also claimed James Cameron stole Terminator from her, and I think there were others that she suddenly realised were "her" ideas all along... All of her lawsuits lapsed when she failed to submit basic forms on time or something like that. Very flimsy claims.

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Love The Thin Man. William Powell and Myrna Loy. That Christmas party at the NYC apt hotel.

Veronica Mars was different than Brick. A little Twin Peak-y. All that sunshine and beach turns to a lot of darkness. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar even wrote an episode. He’s an extremely good writer. Kristen Bell was also good in House of Lies with Don Cheadle.

I liked Wahlberg in Fear. Wm Peterson and Reese were too. I also liked Wahlberg in The Departed - he was able to retain his Boston accent.

I looked up Sophia Stewart for the first time. She didn’t come through on the court stuff. She lost because she was a no-show. Or they won because she didn’t show up. I think she sued her attorney in the end but as disorganized as she was there are parts that are credible. The stories of Terminator and Matrix are saviors who are the “one” and they are coming to save mankind. One is a prequel to the other. A Jesus Christ story - in the form of John Connor (JC) and Neo. I think some of the names of the characters were hers first. ??

The Hunter, 1963, is the novel Point Blank is based on - with Lee Marvin and Angie Dickinson. It’s like Payback obviously; it’s about a guy whose wife betrays him with his best friend and they leave him for dead during a heist at Alcatraz taking his share of the money. He now just wants his money. It sounds like Max Payne is avenging the death of his family. Is this ever a theme in film noir - avenging the death of a wife or family? Usually it’s a double-cross. Point Blank was filmed in Santa Monica and San Francisco and LAX when they had the green and blue mosaic tiles in the some of long hallways. All green and blue - air and water. John Boorman did this movie and it is fantastic. I loved Deliverance too.

Both Dark City and Point Blank are considered cult classics. Point Blank was added to the National Film Registry (actually so was Matrix). Pauline Kael said of PB “intermittently dazzling.” Bosley Crowther of NY Times said Boorman had “done an amazing job of getting the look and smell of Los Angeles but holy smokes, what a candid and calculatedly sadistic film.”

I saw The Curse of the Jade Scorpion for the first time and I liked it. I love Allen’s sets in this movie and the sets of Bullets Over Broadway. The acting was great and this might be his homage to Double Indemnity - in a way - the insurance investigator. Dan Ackroyd is a lot like Fred MacMurray. Helen as Stanwyk. That’s where the similarities end though. And it becomes a love story.

I just saw 2001: A Space Odyssey in 70mm. What a movie. What a masterpiece. I was blown away. The next 70mm is The Wild Bunch. This theater plays to a full house. They just did a Victor Nunez tribute.

They also have an annual Noir City Festival and proceeds help restore old films. This August, some of the films are: KEY LARGO, SORRY, WRONG NUMBER, HOLLOW TRIUMPH, A DOUBLE LIFE, THE VELVET TOUCH, THE HUNTED, CALL NORTHSIDE 777, LARCENY, I WALK ALONE, T-MEN, CRY OF THE CITY, THE NAKED CITY, BLOOD ON THE MOON, PURSUED, TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, WHIPLASH, RAW DEAL, HE WALKED BY NIGHT, THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI, MOONRISE, BODYGUARD, NIGHT HAS A THOUSAND EYES and THE BIG CLOCK. A lot of Gail Russell. Cornell Woolrich. Have you seen these?

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I never saw Veronica Mars, but I have heard very good things.

This is speculation, but I feel like Sophia Stewart was a no-show because there wasn't any substance to her claims. I don't find her claims credible at all. Similarities between her works and The Matrix (or Terminator) seem to come from other sources. She's using sources like The Bible and Alice in Wonderland and other materials that the Wachowski's used. My problems are many...

First, she doesn't seem to be able to prove that the Wachowski's actually read her manuscript.
Second, her story seems cribbed from other sources; the "theft" isn't from her, it's from the zeitgeist.
Third, elements of stories like a "chosen one" hardly seem like theft.
Fourth, she claims that she "just realised" James Cameron ripped her off? She never heard about The Terminator?

I've read excerpts from her work, "The Third Eye," and it's rambling. Frankly, it looks like the kind of thing one might cobble together after the fact to claim that The Matrix ripped one off. Nothing about it adds up, in my opinion, and any way I look at it, it just doesn't seem credible.

Noir does have some connection to killed families, although it's not really common. I feel like that was an element of Max Payne that came from more general action movies - which we definitely do see. Taken, for example, although Neeson's family isn't "dead," his daughter is his motivation. I want to avoid "naming names" for spoilers' sake. I can think of at least one noir with a "dead family" motive, though (off the top of my head, anyway).

I've actually never seen Deliverance.

I'll check out Point Blank.

I love what you sad about the Jade Scorpion. Woody Allen never disappoints, in my opinion. I can see where critics feel differently, because they're always looking for the next profound, comic masterpiece like Annie Hall, but if you go in with an open mind, just hoping for a decent movie, Allen always has your back.

Hah. It's funny how many of those aren't on my "must see noir" list I've been cruising through. I've seen Key Largo, The Naked City, Raw Deal, The Lady from Shanghai, Moonrise, and The Big Clock. I liked or loved them all. I was really impressed by The Big Clock which managed to run a thriller/noir story with almost a farce at the same time. I laughed aloud at several scenes, and I was always having such a fun, enjoyable time during that film.

Most of the others aren't even on my list. Funny how many of these things there are. Also interesting how many wouldn't make a list of noir because - as we've discussed - noir is a mercurial genre. Some people probably wouldn't include a film like The Big Clock because of its funny elements.

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I don’t know enough about the Stewart thing, and only did I first hear about it is from you. I probably shouldn’t have even commented. I did watch Dark City again, and this is first time since I saw it in the theater when it came out. (I just noticed there is a Director’s Cut.) I completely forgot the entire movie and it is was great seeing it again through new eyes. What great set decorations. Some, particularly the rooftop ones, were also used in the opening scene in The Matrix. In watching Dark City - it’s more apparent the individuality against the hive existence. I still see the connection between Terminator and Matrix - the coming of “the one.” This is not in Dark City - but maybe when I see the Director’s Cut - more will be revealed. I’m beginning to really dislike TV.

Deliverance was a disturbing movie - I think Irreversible and Audition were more so. Deliverance was just one of the best movies. And terrifying.

I have never heard of some of the noir movies - but I joined this cinemateque thing, and I will go and see them. Good thing about these movies is that they are not very long at all. The Killers is playing this month. They are actually having a discussion before showing this movie. Did you like that one? I loved it. I always thought Kitty was the best of all the femme fatales as she as the very worst.

Taken was great because it was in Paris. As far as hit “men” fighting back, I think I loved The Long Kiss Goodnight.

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To be fair, it's been a while since I've looked into Sophia Stewart's case myself. A couple of my more activism-minded friends dug it up during BLM's heyday as proof of white supremacy. These days it might be perceived as transphobia.

I'm going off of my remembrances of the case. I always felt there was a lack of proof by Ms. Stewart, at least. I read from her manuscripts, although they might have been fakes.

As far as I'm concerned, comment away.

I rewatched Dark City earlier this year. Always worth an additional viewing.

The atmosphere is perfect in that film. It feels like a "serious" version of Brazil - Terry Gilliam's film. You're right: the sets and decor are laudible.

There is definitely a connection between Dark City and The Matrix in terms of the system/individual thing. That hive mind and a "wake up" vibe. I still think it would have been too much of a magic trick for the Wachowskis to see the film and boost those elements. The Matrix was already in production, so taking all of that from Dark City would have involved major changes at the script level. Other elements, like a dark atmosphere and trench coats and faceless "corporate" villains are all just cyberpunk staples.

Like Sophia Stewart, I see similarities, but they aren't unique similarities. Like with your "the One" example; the coming of "The One" is older than The Matrix or Terminator or Sophia Stewart. You're right: Dark City doesn't have that, although Rufus Sewell's character is sort of a "special" person. But he isn't a prophesied hero.

I loved The Killers. It's an excellent film noir. The opening is mesmerizing. Kitty's a top-grade femme fatale, but I don't think she was worse than Kathy from Out of the Past. My personal favourite is probably either Brigid (Maltese Falcon) whose web of lies is so thick I don't even know if she can get through it, or else Vivian (The Big Sleep) because of Bacall's magnetism.

The Long Kiss Goodnight is a quality movie. I had a really nice chat over that film here: https://moviechat.org/tt0116908/The-Long-Kiss-Goodnight/63abd9350bd6716588d83028/Great-Mixup-Movie-SPOILERS

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Out of the Past is not only my favorite noir, but one of my favorite movies. Just as The Searchers is my favorite western, and one my favorite movies. Except the other night, I saw a screening of a 70mm version of The Wild Bunch and have to say it is a superior western, if not the best. I kept thinking while I was watching - was anybody hurt on this one - and later googled it and found that all horses and people survived. But jeez, what a movie. (Whereas in The Godfather - much later - I found out Coppola did put a real horse’s head in the bed - his reasoning was it was slated for slaughter.) But back to Out of the Past - I loved Kathie Moffat and I loved scenes where Mitchum follows her to Mexico - and the “Baby, I don’t care” line after she says she ripped Kirk off of $40K and shot him 4 times - but still, in her own way, she loved Mitchum. But then again, she did kill him. Kitty didn’t love anyone and is trying to get a verbal reprieve from a dying man. I loved the Brigid character in Maltese Falcon but Mary Astor was too mumsy for me. Bacall was sleek and that dress she wore in To Have and Have Not when she was “singing” was fantastic. She was also imitating the style of Slim Hawks from dress to mannerisms. (I think Bogart nicknamed Bacall “Slim” and Depp did the same with Heard as he thought they were Bogart and Bacall all over again.) But Ava Gardner is hard to beat - head on. I will have to see it again on the 29th I guess. If I recall, her part wasn’t that big and it was one of her first roles. I do have to say Kathleen Turner comes close in Body Heat but that would be neo noir. The hair has a lot to do with it - as in Rita Hayworth’s Gilda and Veronica Lake. Most say Stanwyck is the best femme fatale and she looks like she’s wearing a wig.

Speaking of Shane Black, the movie last weekend was Last Action Hero in 70mm. I didn’t go but I had no idea Shane Black wrote The Long Kiss Goodnight. I liked your posting a lot. Whether you know it or not, there are probably a lot of readers on this site that you introduced this movie to for the first time. Bravo. Also, I mentioned I loved The Nice Guys.

When I was watching Dark City - I flipped over to The Curse of the Jade Scorpion - and the look of that film has some interiors similar to DC in their tone. It’s just the time period that films like Blade Runner and Dark City have similar aesthetics - derived from actual period pieces like Road to Perdition and Boardwalk Empire because of the residences built then - lots of really dark all wood rooms and a lot of dark green tile and dark mossy green walls.

About Gloria - I just don’t know enough about this thing to really comment. Except she might have had a case and wasn’t effectively represented by counsel. There are technicalities too. If you miss a filing date your case could be over. If her attorney said she didn’t have to be present... The judge asked her what she would like to get out of the case and I think he meant compensation and she said she wanted them in jail. She might have been her own worst enemy. I can see the BLM pov. How many black musicians, sports figures, who were completely robbed. And, it would be in this case, a black woman who masterminded the premise for two of the greatest franchises of all time- if it did happen. If Gloria did contribute to the story of The Matrix even a little bit or Terminator, then it is really sad that she didn’t get credit for her input.

People borrow concepts all the time. The Matrix and Dark City each can stand alone on their individual merits. In my recent viewing of Dark City, I spotted the telephone booth - I thought well here the Wachoswskis saw this and used it as a transport in time. I just think they might have relied a bit more from Dark City to make the Matrix work for them. I didn’t like the Matrix sequels at all. I remember I saw Dark City at the time it came out and then Matrix later. I told everybody about The Matrix at my work and another guy saw it and he loved it too. My boss just said - Dark City is the superior film. I was speechless and shut down. Not until then did I realize the connection. But I think Bound is fantastic and no one has seen it.

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Out of the Past is an exemplar of noir. You raise good points about the relative goodness of the femmes fatale. I'd agree Kathie did actually love him in a twisted way, while Kitty didn't have the love for anybody. I can see where you'd feel that way about Mary Astor's performance, but it's the character for me. She's so spun up in her deceits that I both pity and scorn her. I can see why Sam is a bit torn up, even though she's a bad dame; for me, that counts for something. This is a side-note, but if you're a Firefly fan, I'm pretty sure that there's a femme fatale character in that series who owes a lot to Brigid's nefarious ways.

Bacall was a force of nature. She's transcendent on screen.

Oof. Could Depp have been more mistaken?

Rita Hayworth in Gilda is also a great performance and character, but she's not quite as dangerous as some of the others. She leaves the danger to the guys in that one (moreso than most other femmes fatale, anyway)

I'm not as much of a western person, and when I am, I prefer the spaghetti variety. For me, when it comes to gunfights and mesas, it doesn't get much better than The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Although, as you say, The Wild Bunch is a pretty epic film. Peckinpah was something else.

The horse-head doesn't bother me too much - knowing it's real. As you pointed out, it was scheduled for slaughter anyway.

I like Last Action Hero a lot. It's not a perfect movie, but it has a LOT of fun with a really fun premise. It's underrated. The Nice Guys is also great.

I never would have thought (until now) to compare Jade Scoprion with Dark City, but you're right. They both draw on similar influences (like Matrix and DC). Love that look.

Sure, Stewart might have a case, I just don't think she does. It's possible it was a technicality hang-up, but from what I've seen, I don't buy it. Of course, if she was stolen from, she deserves millions of dollars and credits added. My take? I think she wrote a rambling sci-fi manuscript that doesn't make a lot of sense and looks like it was kinda tailored to fit The Matrix and The Terminator. She could be telling the truth, but if I was placing bets, I'd bet on "grifter."

You are right about black musicians in-particular being given the short end of the stick. I've always thought it was cool of the Rolling Stones to insist on having Howlin' Wolf on a show with them as their musical legacy guest; they always gave credit to the blues guys that they were inspired by, and that was unusual for the time.

I'm not sure if I prefer DC to Matrix. They're both really good, but they shoot for very different things (even with the similarities). Both have great depth.

Someday I'll watch Bound.

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So, with the Wachowskis as brothers to sisters journey - I wonder how much Bound influenced them. For males to transition to females and then have female lovers seems really baffling - to me. But I can see how Bound might have influenced them.

I don’t like the idea of using a horse or any animal part in a movie or anywhere. There has to be some huge part missing in a person to think that this is ok. When I drive down the street, I often see a family with their dog in the car and the dog is happy with the window open. It looks like it’s smiling. I then go a few blocks to a crappy neighborhood, and the dog is tied up with a 7 ft rope with no water or food and the face of the dog is one that is in misery and pain. I definitely think how lucky that one dog is and the other? And that’s the way it is with kids too. Those who don’t have parents or parents who are not good people, are bait for those that think it is ok to do whatever they want because who wants them as those “slated for slaughter.” Through no fault of their own - just having someone watch over you. First of all, who slaughters horses anyway. And then taking the head of one just so you can pull a prank on an actor to elicit a response. That guy’s an actor. It makes me sick. I think the Godfather is one of the greatest films but this part for me is like watching a snuff film.

I am seeing The Killers this Saturday. And, then I guess for most of August, those noir films I never heard of. It starts off with Sorry, Wrong Number and Key Largo - I have seen these but the next ones, I haven’t - Hollow Triumph, A Double Life and The Velvet Touch.

The Stones (and a lot of British Blues bands) and the world appreciate American black artists way more than Americans do. Black American artists have been and are a gift to the world.

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I would have guessed that, if anything, Bound's script would have been influenced by the writers' tastes. I've never heard of a writer creating a work that then influenced the writer... Although, perhaps by exploring certain themes, the writer might come to realize certain things about themself through the writing process. Interesting thought, that.

As to the trans/non-binary psyche, I cannot pretend to understanding that in the slightest. Live and let live, say I, but I just don't "get" it. I'm trying to learn, but I must confess, the more I hear of it, the less sense it seems to make.

I suppose I feel like, as somebody who eats meat and wears leather - not exclusively, of course - and generally just utilizes the tools, clothing, and sustinance which comes from animals, I don't see why I should draw a moral distinction between eating cow and using part of that cow in a film. I wouldn't want an animal to be unduly harmed for the film, nor would I want it killed specifically for the film (the horse shouldn't be slaughtered for its head) but if it was scheduled for slaughter anyway, the use of its body parts should be as complete as possible, in my opinion. That's harkening to the idea of not being wasteful, using the full animal, so that if their death must be done, may it be as useful as possible to prevent needless slaughter.

Why does a horse need to be killed? I cannot say. Some eat the meat. Maybe the horse was stricken in some way and had to be put down. I don't know and I cannot comment. Depending on the how and why, I might agree with ethical objections.

I am also against ambushing actors with things like that. Trust the performance to be great: no need to mess with them.

I'll join you completely for the rope/freedom dichotomy: animal or person, they ought to be treated well. Luck enters into it - some get a better shake than others - but I'll happily champion a better life for all.

Let me know how you like the unknown noirs.

The recording industry has always treated artists badly, but particularly the black artists. I really hate the way artists get treated by companies. Film, television, recording - whatever - they all seem to offer artists really lousy deals even though the art is the thing we're interested in buying. It just ain't fair.

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So, with that in mind, I’m going to Verona this fall to eat horse. I will let you know. For the rest of the cities in Italy, it’s fruit de mer. Obviously pasta. (I’m just kidding. About Verona. Venice tho definitely baccalà mantecato.)

I just saw in 70 mm - Do you recall this one? The Year of the Dragon. With Mickey Rourke. Written by Cimino and Oliver Stone. It’s sexist and racist by today’s standards (actually back then too), but it was fun. I’ve never laughed so much in the sex scenes as I did with this one. The audience was howling as well. Rourke really had a presence. I’ve loved Barfly. Same time period. But the Chinatown and Thailand scenes were fantastic. And then there’s this NYC penthouse that is out of this world. They’re showing a new copy of The Fugitive in a couple of weeks. And also a Tati film. Mon Oncle. They showed Contempt (I have seen this one many times and didn’t go for that reason) last week and had a discussion. I wished I had gone because seeing these films at this theater is an unbelievable experience. It’s full and it’s loud. People cheer and clap and they look like they’re students from film depts. of USC And UCLA. The vibe is old school. I thought I’d never see it again. They’re showing Cinema Paradiso in a few days and it’s sold out. I guess I have to wait in their line. I’ve never seen this movie.

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I've actually eaten horse. I recall it tasting sort of beef-like, but it's been a long time and I only had a small piece, so I don't remember it terribly well. It probably depends on how it's prepared.

I have not seen The Year of the Dragon, but if I get a chance, I'll look to it.

I can't say I have had the pleasure of seeing Jacques Tati, but I have assembled a list of highly recommended films of his work and intend to see them at some point. Maybe I'll do it now that I've wrapped up my noir viewing. Well, mostly. I have one final film on my list: Ossessione, which I have not yet found in good quality with English subtitles (at a price I can afford...)

Not that I've exhausted all noirs - or even dipped into my list of neo-noirs! - but just that I've completed the 60-70 films on my cobbled-together list.

I haven't seen Cinema Paradiso, either. I almost forgot it existed entirely; it seems every time I turn around there's another must-see film.

Yes, I prefer seeing films at the theatre. I have a couple friends with projectors and decent home theatres, but even they do not compare to the live experience. There's something special about the lights dimming and the bright screen flickering to life and sitting there with your snacks in the dark with some friends and many strangers all enjoying a moment of art together. This is what makes cinemas so fun, and doubly and triply so for live entertainment like theatre and music.

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I was just kidding. There’s no way I am eating horse even if it is great. The idea is just reprehensible to me. But I understand the tradition in Verona. Everything in Italy is about art, taste, beauty raised to the highest level. My last movie at this theater was La Dolce Vita and I absolutely loved it. I had never seen it and I wanted to see at a theater. This couldn’t have been more special. I liked it so much better than 8-1/2 and both were actually very similar.

I don’t think you have to see Year of the Dragon or even Cinema Paradiso. Tati films are a must though. I am fortunate that I live in Los Angeles where the film industry reigns. There is an energy being a participant in the audience that you can’t get elsewhere unless you are able to attend Cannes, Sundance, Venice and other film festivals. I get a chance to be in a selected group and it makes watching the film very special. Also the projectionist is hailed at every film showing. The in-house discussions are fantastic. I would venture to say that most of the viewers in attendance are part of the film industry or are USC or UCLA students so it differs from the average person watching a Netflix action film. These are really two worlds.

I did see Obsessione on Amazon Prime Video - you can rent or buy. Are you talking about Visconti? But I am not sure you are in the US, and I noticed that when I went to Europe that I couldn’t get any stuff on my Prime Video while I was there.

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I can understand a mental block with horse and not wanting to go there. I still don't really think of it as "food". Apparently, guinea pig is one of the most common food animals in the world, though, and I don't think of them as food, either. I'd probably try that, too. My personal philosophy is that, if I'm okay with eating meat, I'm okay with eating any species of animal. I don't want to eat a pet or anything. But, again, that's just me, and I understand the alternate view.

I'll see La Dolce Vita one of these days.

Film Festivals and other special events really do make the viewing experience unique.

I like to be pretty vague about my whereabouts in real life while on message boards. I'm not trying to be super-secretive or anything, but I generally avoid hints. It's not just about who I'm talking to (in this case, yourself) but rather other people who might happen upon the info. Maybe that's a little paranoid, but it's an affectation that I don't feel like jettisoning any time soon.

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Exactly. Studios make writers use a sledgehammer today to pound in messages.

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And a soapbox to swing them from...

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I suspect that they put the part about respecting the police because of censorship. Without it, the message would have been in the lines of "the cops are not much better".

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That sounds very likely. Whatever the reason, though, they pulled it off. They managed to give us nuance in the messaging through great writing and performances. In lesser hands, the speech would have been pure propaganda, but because it's cut with the reality of the character who we sympathise with, we know that while the cops aren't bad guys, the bad guys aren't pure evil, either.

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