I enjoyed most of this film. And took it out on DVD because of what others had said about it. I know it was released in 1949. But I was surprised to hear the word n•••••r used three times, in the end of the film, in a deliberately derogatory manner. That's the only thing that spoilt it for me.
shareOkay, I'm going to ask a deliberately provocative question, having read this all the way through:
Have we got any individuals of African ancestry reading this thread and being offended by the word and its use in question, or are we all just a bunch of semi-illuminated white folks being offended on their behalf?
I mean, it was a kids' rhyme, for pity's sake! I notice that you're a lot more offended by a word being used in a kids' rhyme than by the fact that the main character has slaughtered his relatives in a way that is supposedly darkly humourous. If you're going to try to be thought police, why not being trying to police the things that are *really* important?!
i LOVE these boards.
if you're ever really really bored you can come and spout all kinds of rubbish about subjects that will never be solved on an internet message board (race and nationality are good ones).
then when someone responds, opposing you, you can personalise the attack and have a real go at them. showing everyone how intelligent and superior you are.
so to personalise this one:
i am white, i hate black guys just as i hate white guys, as i do the french, the germans, anyone born after 1984, people who drive cars, people who cycle, pedestrians, and the entire Man Utd first 11.
i even hate you.
does that make me a racist? who cares.
this is a message board. on the internet.
something tells me kofi annan isn't checking it hourly.
Well at least you're honest! ;)
shareI was kind of taken aback a bit when watching this movie. It's weird to see old movies that freely use racist terminology. It's funny when people get upset over "racism" in modern movies. Just show them some old movies and they'll shut right up.
shareOf course you have to remember that when this film was made, and even more when it was set, the British were still ruling almost half of Africa, and other Europeans most of the rest. The justification used for this was that Africans were less civilised and needed 'us' to run their countries for them. This sort of casual racism was pretty pervasive in society, and I remember my own elderly relatives using the n-word as late as the 1960's.
It wasn't consciously perceived by the users as racist, so in a way it didn't carry the weight it does now, when it would mostly be used as an explicit insult. However it was evidence of the superiority most white Europeans assumed over black people, so it was certainly tacitly racist.
And in fact more educated/liberal people did regard the term as unacceptable back then.
UPDATE May 08 - just saw the film again. This alleged "racism" is the use of the 'n'-word in the "Eeny-meeny-miney-mo" rhyme:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eeny,_meeny,_miny,_moe
That's hardly on a par with Shakespere's characterisation of Shylock in "Merchant of Venice", but in any case the idea that we should dispense with (or censor) all classic works that are not 'politically correct' by today's standards seems to me mindbogglingly narrow-minded. Once you include sexism and homophobia, we would not be left with very much of a literary or cinematic tradition.
The case of "Huck Finn" is interesting. An explicitly anti-racist novel is being taken out of libraries because of the use of the n-word? Please.
I used to want to change the world. Now I just want to leave the room with a little dignity.
I was born in England in 1965. The rhyme "Eeny meeny miny mo, catch a n****r by the toe, if he squeals let him go" was in common use with us certainly until the mid-seventies when I grew out of using this sort of 'who's it not you' selection process.
The Agatha Christie novel, "Ten Little n****rs" was also still available under this title in my local public library when I was a teenager. The English renaming into "Ten Little Indians" took place in 1965. However, America was certainly ahead of Britain in finding the word n****r offensive as the first American edition in 1940 was entitled "And Then There Were None." As with "Eeny Meeny Miny Mo," "Ten Little n****rs" is apparently part of a children's rhyme (Agatha Christie had a particular fondness for these in her titles) and there is little to suggest any more racist connotation than "Ten green bottles."
On a different note, the 'ass'/'arse' debate. It looks as if Britain might be succumbing to the American spelling (and pronunciation), although there is still a pronounced laddish culture which emphasises the letter 'r'. The word ‘ass’, to mean a donkey-like animal or (more commonly) a stupid person ("Don't be an ass") is pronounced differently, although not so differently that it can't be put to good use in a pun. However, both arse and ass might lose out to the American ‘butt’ which was unknown here until perhaps twenty years ago.
I think it is about time that "huckleberry Finn was removed from libraries and schools. I remember way back in 1979 when I was studying this book for my gce's. It was the habit of teachers then, just like it is today, to read out the book loud to the whole class and i know people in the classroom who were grossly offended every time racist expletives were used. Time has nothing to with it. It was just as offensive back then as it is today.
sharePerhaps you'd like to go out back & burn it - along with all other literature & art that offends your delicate sensibilities. You know who else did that, Dimmy..?
Ain't censorship great, folks?
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Yeah this board made my day, why do people have *beep* fights about racism, abortion etc etc on this board about a simple movie? It's not relevant.
The online sites of this world are just lunatic asylums, arguing over things that are not relevant.
Have we got any individuals of African ancestry reading this thread and being offended by the word and its use in question, or are we all just a bunch of semi-illuminated white folks being offended on their behalf?
Yes, the children's rhyme is racist by today's standards, but it was still commonly used at the time. It was used in the film because it relates to the counting off of people one by one, not because the film attempted to make any derogatory statements about black people. Had the derogatory word already been replaced by "tiger" when the film was made, no doubt that would have been used instead, because it would not have made any difference to the function of the rhyme in the film. Should it be censored retro-actively? No.I whole-heartedly agree...the use of the "n-word" is unfortunate based on today's standards.
Also conincidently, 'Natural Born Killers' also uses the rhyme with n**ger in it in a scene with a psychopath counting off victims lol.
shareI'm half black and I'm always offended by the "N" word. I don't like it when white people say it, when black people say it, when Asians say it, whenever anyone says it. However, when watching an old movie or reading an old book, you should make allowances for that sort of thing, because that's just the way it was done back then. It was far more acceptable in those days than it is now.
I remember when I was younger, my mom (who is white) lent me a P.G. Wodehouse book to read (we love Wodehouse), I believe it was "Thank You, Jeeves," with the warning that the "N" word was used several times, and we had a talk about how it was acceptable in those days, etc etc. And I thoroughly enjoyed the book, it was hilarious. And, as previous posters have pointed out, that was the rhyme in its original version. It was changed to "tiger" so as not to sound racist.
"I mean, it was a kids' rhyme, for pity's sake! I notice that you're a lot more offended by a word being used in a kids' rhyme than by the fact that the main character has slaughtered his relatives in a way that is supposedly darkly humourous. If you're going to try to be thought police, why not being trying to police the things that are *really* important?!"
Yes, I'm much more offended when a fictional character uses racist language than when one kills people. And yes, I know that sounds bad, but you know what? I LIKE watching killing in movies. Does that make me some sort of sick, twisted person? No, I'm against killing in real life. But this isn't real life, and frankly, murder in fiction can be very entertaining. I know I'm not the only one who thinks so, because there are at least two genres (Horror and War) that are entirely based on the fact that people like to watch fictional people kill each other! One of the reasons they're so popular is because people know that it's wrong to kill another person in real life (well, most people know), so actors are just acting out the movie-goers darkest fantasies ("fantasy" being the key word). On the other hand, there are many people in real life who don't know or care that it's wrong to be racist, sexist, homophobic, what have you, in real life, so when they see people acting like that in movies, it just reinforces their ignorance. See what I mean? I hope that made sense.
However, I don't think the usage of the "N" word in this film is hugely offensive because it was just part of the rhyme back then (although that in itself is rather sad).
Also, I'd like to add that I am 100% against censorship. Trying to make out as if racism and "political incorrectness" never happened is just as wrong as the actual act.
"You see how this puts a crimp in my plans for world domination? Not to say I won't keep trying."
At the time, the word had a more benign inflection but that was before concern about the never-ending offense that blacks take to virtually everything became paramount.
shareIn the thirties and forties dress catalogues offered a choice of winter clothing in " navy,bottle green or *beep* Nobody batted an eyelid or even noticed. I don't think many people in the UK were aware that it was an offensive term. I heard it used recently by a ninety-year od lady in a positively admiring context. We do know now.
June Morley
On and on and on and on.
A few silly thoughts to lighten it up:
W.C. Fields got around it by saying, "There's an Ethiopian in the fuel supply".
The Major in Fawlty Towers, in recalling an old conversation says approximately,"she said '.........these n*****s' (about some Arabs). I said 'I won't have that. (righteously) These people aren't n*****s. These people are W*gs!!'"
And for my closer, so I can be a bit righteous too, let us remember the British abolished slavery some time before we did.
It does come as a bit of a shock. As others have noted, the word was freely used in Britain till fairly recently. The Brits have never been backwards in their use of racist language and tended to laugh at Americans for being over-sensitive. Their ant-semitism can be fairly breath-taking, too. (I am British but live in the States) For instance, a favorite color was n** brown. Christie's dreadful thriller was entitled Ten Little N** because that's what the nursery rhyme was originally. And the same is true in Kind hearts. When it was made it wouldn't have occurred to anyone to change it. Times have changed and it now seems jarring.
share"I was surprised to hear the word n•••••r used three times, in the end of the film, in a deliberately derogatory manner. That's the only thing that spoilt it for me."
Wow, 3 whole times!?
Although I agree that its a very disrespectful term... that's too bad, if you can't deal with it, don't watch the movie.
If I had some indication that this term was used in the film in the manner in which was intended. I would not have watched the film in the first place.
shareAh I get it. Stargate is a troll. Nice work.
I used to want to change the world. Now I just want to leave the room with a little dignity.
[deleted]
I wouldn't say I was a troll.
share"If I had some indication that this term was used in the film in the manner in which was intended. I would not have watched the film in the first place."
And what manner was that? In another post I read that the N word was used in a derogatory manner. Derogatory to whom? No Africans were in the scene. None were referred to. The persons actually being referred to were members of the British nobility and the nursery rhyme was a sort of code. There is nothing inherently offensive about the N word; it is only a regional pronunciation of the Spanish word for black. The problem comes because of the way the word has been used by whites. Today, nobody uses the word except bigots, but it was not always thus. Joseph Conrad's first major novel was the *beep* of the Narcissus. There's the giveaway right in the title; so I assume you won't read it. But, if you think you can wish away or ignore history, you're going to be disappointed. If you plan to try to ignore everything that could possibly be offensive to you, you are going to have huge gaps in your store of knowledge. Before you decide to be offended by something, try to understand it in its context and not impose 21st century values on it.
(I am editing this reply because, as soon as I posted it, somebody or something else edited it. I did not write the *beep* of the Narcissus. That's ridiculous. The book with its original title is for sale on Amazon, which apparently felt no need to alter it.)
"There is nothing inherently offensive about the N word"
I think if it is said with a certain amount of disdain or negatively, like in this film, then it is offensive.
Oh for Pete's Sake! There is no Constitutional Amendment to not be offended. Grow a thicker skin. As others pointed out, not only was the film made in the Politically Incorrect days of 1949, it also reflected the mindset prevalent at the turn of the century. To think the film makers are going to intentionally "diss" someone, even a minority, is a bit of a stretch.
shareIt's ugly, but it's a sign of the era in which the movie was made. Editing it to fit today's attitudes would be a real transgression.
________________________
'It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?'
'If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.'
I am black and the use of the N word does not offend me unless it is purposely used to offend. As other posters have said it was 1949 and they were very different times. In the Dambusters movie (and real life of course) one of the airmen had a black labrador called N***** and there were colour charts that used N***** Brown as a colour. Get over it and try to stop changing history and the language. I have been prevented from using the word on this post by a filter -hence the asterix.
shareWhen a young girl, my grandma had a cat called 'N***R'. She was always embarrassed about that fact in her later years. We've come a long way, baby!
shareOh God... Nobody cared for racism back in 1949. N-word here N-word there...
shareoh dont tell me it was sooooo shocking when 99% of todays rap songs use the word *beep*
shareDamn, I can't recall who used the word 'tidbit' on this thread, but of course it is still spelled in its original form,'titbit', in the UK. I love language, and the differences between British English and American English is fascinating.
But the assumed racism in 'Kind Hearts and Coronets' really should be passed over as it was a sign of the times. Mind you, as a kid growing up in Scotland, we were still using that rhyme well into the late 70s without any hint (or understanding) of racism. It was just a way of choosing a kid for a game, normally.
Also, what a great movie!
Exactly I don't get why the poster had to make a post on this.
'Is this testing whether I'm a replicant or a lesbian Mr. Deckard?'
There was a lesbian Rick Deckard?!?
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