MovieChat Forums > Double Indemnity (1944) Discussion > Walter falling for Phyllis

Walter falling for Phyllis


Maybe it's just me, but how does a guy say "I'm crazy about you, baby." when he's only seen this dame for the third time, and only over a two day period? And for a total of 10 minutes?

And to the point where he plots murder of a guy he's never met, strictly on the testimony of said dame?

This tells me there is way more subtext to Walter Neff than meets the eye. Put another way, Keyes is enamored of him and has known him for 11 years and would "vouch" for him, and never suspects him of the murder, yet Neff works out the details and strangles the poor fellow without blinking an eye, belying the stellar character view that Keyes has of him.

Maybe it's because Barbara Stanwyck doesn't do it for me. I just can't see what he purportedly sees. The step daughter had way more appeal and beauty, and I still wouldn't buy a person with integrity moving so quickly to demolish another man's life.

I know it's the whole "film noir" thing that asks us to suspend disbelief and go along with the storyline, but I find this a major distraction from an otherwise brilliantly constructed film.



Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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it's all about the ankle bracelet :)

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LOL! Right, I should have remembered that.


Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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But on a serious note, I think it has more to do with what 'type' of woman Walter surmised she was when he first sees her, not necessarily because of her beauty (which I don't think she had). He started in on the sexual innuendo to see her reaction. His instincts were correct that she was no angel.

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The instant connection between Kathleen Turner and William Hurt in Body Heat (great homage to Double Indemnity) is much more believable.

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I agree with the OP's point, and do point the finger a bit at Stanwyck, who I have found much better elsewhere. This beign one of her films that gets rave reviews, this was surprising to me. Maybe the OP is alluding to it being as much about the story as written as her. But ftr I also thought Fred was not all that convincing, either.

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It is as much about the way the story is written as well as Stanwyck not being the alluring femme fatale that I would say, Kim Novak, Julie Adams, Debra Paget, Ruth Roman, Rita Hayworth would have been. Maybe they were considered but weren't slutty enough for the part.

I put Stanwyck in the same category as Bette Davis and Joan Crawford. I just can't see them getting an otherwise ethical character to do murder for them.


Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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rj,

Well it is a bit troubling to me, but not too much!, that Stanwyck strikes me as problematic in this role when so many love the film.

btw in 1944 I don't think Kim Novak was working.

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Yes. Novak was a star in the mid to late 50's. For some reason I was thinking this was a 50's film.

Re: Stanwyck...I admit it is a relatively minor complaint. As I stated elsewhere, this is a brilliantly constructed film.


Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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What a horrible thing, regarding Stanwyck as slutty. As well as the two others. The ones you have on a pedestal have not played angels, themselves.

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Agree.

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What makes the movie endlessly fascinating for me is that Walter Neff doesn't have the integrity you claim for him. He isn't enamored of Phyllis, nor is she of him. They are playing parts. As Roger Ebert says in his review (it's on imdb): "I see them engaged not in romance or theft, but in behavior. They're intoxicated by their personal styles."

The plain fact is--they are both bored silly with their lives. It's a mistake to look at the film as another "guy lusting after a dame so much he's willing to kill for her." It's not that at all.

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The plain fact is--they are both bored silly with their lives. It's a mistake to look at the film as another "guy lusting after a dame so much he's willing to kill for her."
I can see that.

Phyllis is ruthless and wants the money.

Walter is ego driven to prove he's smarter than Keys.

Neither really cares about anyone but themself.

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And I can see both your points, and they are compelling.

It's just tough to rationalize something as irrevocable as murder based on a man's attraction for a dame, or his ego inflated to the point where he needs to prove he's smarter than his mentor.

It's one thing to rob a bank or embezzle from a trust fund, or pull a Thomas Crown caper because you already have all the money you need - you just need some excitement to bring back the edge of life living.

Maybe you are right - Neff doesn't have the moral fiber Keyes thinks he does. But murder of an innocent human being is about as horrific a nightmare you could put yourself in if you have any conscience at all.

And so, my original point remains and I think it is unassailable - from that perspective.



Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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Neff doesn't have the moral fiber Keyes thinks he does.
Take for example where Walters says, "I used to peddle vacuum cleaners, not much money but you learn a lot about life." Obviously referring to a sexual past with lonely housewives.

I don't think he's ever shown to be a moral man.

And Phyllis tried killing the first wife, so no question about her morals.

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I don't think any competition between Neff and Keys happened as a justification in his mind or was even implied, so I wouldnt even address that, I just think thats wrong. As far as doing anything for a hot girl youre in an steamy affair with? Totally 100% believable. Sex and allure drive men at their core in every way. Its evolutionary. So much so that I find your original question kind of strange because I never wondered why he did it at all. Maybe the pace was a bit fast for you, but I might have done the same thing for Phyllis in the same situation. Especially because she knew thats what she wanted and was working towards it. A man will do anything for a hot woman. Whether or not you think she was hot, he thought she was. From the moment he saw her in the bathrobe

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I don't think any competition between Neff and Keys happened as a justification in his mind or was even implied

A man will do anything for a hot woman. Whether or not you think she was hot, he thought she was. From the moment he saw her in the bathrobe
Walter only wants to sleep with Phyllis, he wasn't in love with her. This is shown with the pink champagne and vacuum salesman dialogue. Walter is a manipulator, same as Phyllis.

At first, he is clearly shocked and offended by the idea of murder, but comes to realize part of him has been waiting for just this opportunity, as explained in the "roulette" speech.

He needs to prove he can beat the system, by outwitting Keys. The money is the trophy, with Phyllis as a bonus.

Walter's motive is ego, not lust.

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My purpose won't be to assail your point, but to examine - in the context of the era in which DI was made - aspects of film convention that led to it.

As the catchphrase in the film's ads said, "from the moment they met, it was murder!" Almost by necessity, an amount of dramatic telescoping, or shorthand if you will, has been employed in filmed fictional narrative, and to which audiences became accustomed: at only their second meeting, Rhett tells Scarlett, "Someday, I want you to say to me the words I heard you say to Ashley Wilkes: 'I love you;'" Fred knows when he first sees Ginger she's the girl for him; even in a franker era decades later, Bonnie resolves herself to a life of crime with Clyde after nothing more than a walk, a soft drink and a burger with him. I'm not sure additional exposition building relationships on the basis of these instant attractions would have benefited the films in which they're represented.

When building such a relationship is the point of the narrative, as in It Happened One Night, for example, that's what gets the focus. But the point of DI was probably best expressed 30 years later in Chinatown: "Most people never have to face the fact that at the right time and the right place, they're capable of anything."

This is something Keyes understands. "Those papers are not just forms and statistics and claims for compensation. They're alive. They're packed with drama...with twisted hopes and crooked dreams," he tells Walter. He wants to believe in his friend's best instincts, but has no illusions about the corruptibility of human nature, which even his offhand assumption about Walter's supposed girlfriend "Margie" reflects: "I bet she drinks from the bottle. Why don't you settle down and get married?" And the implication is not to someone like "Margie," but a "good girl" who won't lead him astray...and into trouble.

I've mentioned elsewhere on this board that Wilder and Chandler refashioned the basic premise of James M. Cain's novella into a traditional good-vs-evil struggle for the soul of a man: Keyes and Phyllis are the flesh and blood embodiment of, respectively, the cartoon "angel" and "devil" perched on opposite shoulders, each whispering to the protagonist to ignore the other and follow him.

Another feature of the Wilder/Chandler construction is the high gear in which its flashback structure kicks off the narrative: "I killed him for money...and for a woman." 'Nuff said. This terse explanation of why we're here and why it began leaves only the "how" of getting from point A to B: how a story of corruption, impulsive lust and greed became one of weakness, betrayal and downfall.

As with the examples cited earlier, my guess is that Wilder and Chandler were cognizant of maintaining the focus: although viewers aren't expected to have done the kind of deeds Walter and Phyllis have, lust and greed are urges everyone can understand and accept at face value, and no time is wasted compromising that focus by laying expository groundwork for submitting to those urges. They skip the appetizers and go straight to the main course.



Poe! You are...avenged!

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I think you may have given the definitive answer not only to my post, but constructive underpinnings of the whole movie itself.

Well done.


Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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It was kind of you to slog through all that, and kinder still to say nice things about it. Cheers.


Poe! You are...avenged!

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It was a pleasure to read. Also a bit of a rarity for one to answer in such a thoughtful and rational way, absent the unfortunate and usual banalities/insults I'm often confronted with.



Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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Well, thanks again.

I see we both became imdb members at exactly the same time (nearly 17 years ago...oy!). In that time, I've simply come to resign myself that, among those of us who come here to have edifying discussions about the films that interest us, there are others who apparently treat the 'net as an outlet for aggression or other discontent. And I remind myself: better that than taking them out on loved ones or pets at home.

It's always a pleasure to share with those among the first group.


Poe! You are...avenged!

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And I remind myself: better that than taking them out on loved ones or pets at home.


Yes, if you have to have an venue that let's you act out aggression in print rather than a physical manner, amen.

It's always a pleasure to share with those among the first group.

Same here. I like to think we enjoy a special measure of maturity that others may benefit from and some may actually appreciate. 🙋

Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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I 100% agree. I watched this movie for the first time, yesterday, and I have to asmit that I really didn't care for it. My biggest issue was how fast they fell for each other, and then his cheesy, 'I'm crazy about you, baby'. I just cringed every time he called her 'baby'. I adore old movies and really wanted to like this movie, but my initial reaction is, not so much. However, in light of your explanation, I get it now. I will watch the movie again, with your comments in the back of my mind, and see if I can appreciate this movie any better. Thank you for taking the time to write this and for explaining it so well.

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barton keyes should have got some lovin' too. 



"Hipness is not a state of mind, it's a fact of life!" - Cannonball Adderley

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This concept is good too. Though we all know about Phyllis.

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Good Concept

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--they are both bored silly with their lives.


She was definitely not the "knitting" type as she claimed to be.

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Let me quote you my favorite line from another movie (Rear Window) to address your point.
"Once it was ‘See somebody, get excited, get married’. Now it’s ‘Read a lot of books, fence with a lot of four syllable words and psychoanalyze each other until you can’t tell the difference between a petting party and a civil service exam.”
Point being, see somebody hot and move quickly IS how it used to be for a whole lotta people. This didnt strike me as odd in any way. Infact my modern relationships tend to follow this same pattern. You see a hot girl, you end up sleeping together, and before you know its 3 days later and youve been together all 3 days, and thats it, youre happy. The only difference is these days you might not say I love you so soon, not because you dont feel it but because culture tells you its too early.

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Exactly

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My wife and I met, we had sex the first night, and would have married after a couple of weeks if she hadn't been worried about what her father would think. We did marry after five months together, and are still married, happily, more than four decades later. I'm glad to be able to say she has never attempted to manipulate me into murdering anyone.

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I agree. It's an entirely plot driven movie.

Walter's actions are done for the sake of advancing the plot. That was the most problematic area for me... Outside of Fred MacMurray's horribly stilted performance. He was totally unconvincing in this role, but his character is given no depth or reasoning for why he behaves in the manner in which he does; not that it would have made Fred's acting any better, but what are his motivations? He walks into a living room one day and randomly plans a murder? Why? What makes this case any different from other insurance cases? Why is Phyllis worth the risk? The movie never spends one single second even attempting to give Walter some substance or depth to his character in explaining his actions. This left me not caring for anybody. And seeing how the movie was going to end at the very beginning and then going back in time and having intermittent voice over throughout; I was not in suspense for the last third of the movie, which was clearly Wilder's intended purpose.

If you're gonna have a movie showing someone about to get caught for their crimes at the very beginning, then you have to a have movie with characters you feel for, otherwise, you just don't care. Liking the characters and understanding their motivations gives you a rooting interest in the movie, which adds to the dramatic effect and suspense, which can be created through the unraveling plot. I didn't care for anyone, so I was pretty detached from the story.

Phyllis and Walter are written as selfish pricks, but neither actor brings any depth to their roles in order to make me believe they're money hungry, bored, in love, etc. They basically tell each other they're crappy people and then the plot is supposed to make us go, "Oh yeah, these two are couple of real aceholes, I can believe this." With that said, I was not Wilder's intended audience - 70 years later - so expectations are higher than they used to be, but looking at this movie through today's lens makes for a rather unimpressive film. I can, however, see why it would have been very entertaining in the mid 1940s. Just too bland and convential by today's standards.



Poetry don't work on whores.

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Yea. Murder is way too bland and conventional nowadays.

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It does happen fast in the film but, there are people similar to this in real life.

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I totally fell for my wife after one evening. It's possible. But she wasn't a psychopathic murderer.

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