MovieChat Forums > The Magnificent Ambersons (1942) Discussion > This is the worst movie I've seen in man...

This is the worst movie I've seen in many years.


I can't believe anyone likes this. All the characters hold a single facial expresssion thoughout, except Agnes Moorehead eventually manages three. There wasn't a single exchange of dialog that looked or sounded real. Each person just gives his lines while the others stand locked in position, counting lines until it's their turn, like a community theater rehearsal.

And the story is so vapid. Not a tragedy at all, since nobody in the family changes. Not enough story for a melodrama, and would have lost nothing being condensed into a half hour.

Even if the "lost ending" had been grand, which I doubt, it came after everyone in the audience had snuck out.

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How can you possibly say this is the worst movie you've seen in many years?!

It has so many things to like about it!

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Neither could I agree more! I don't know why I am out of luck! This is the third terrible film I've seen in the past 24 hours! They've been Nichols' "The Graduate", Bresson's "The Pickpocket" and Welle's "The Magnificent Ambersons." I really wasted my time.

Especially terrible was this film. The events were so nonsensical! Especially Isabella's sudden submission to her son's will. She was determined and had decided to marry Eugene, but when she was talking to her son in her room, she suddenly said "alright" and they went away. That was absurd!

I don't know what all was about in this terrible film!

Mohsen

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Maybe you think "Fight Club" is one of the best movies of all time or something?

Actually I don't even want to know what you think is a good film if you think this movie is bad...

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No, I'm not a Hollywood hypnotized!



M.Q

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Thanks to the people posting here who had the courage to go against the tide. I especially appreciate the post that talks about Ambersons as a wooden film class exercise, or similar words -- can't see the post now.

The folks insulting you and defending Ambersons ... well ... if the best thing you can say about a movie is that anyone who dislikes it should be watching another movie with robots and explosions ... that doesn't say much good about you, or about the film you are attempting to defend.

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About unhappy endings v happy endings ...

Most people's lives are sad enough. We need a movie to *earn* any sad ending it delivers.

A movie that earns a sad ending -- "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter." Very sad ending. But the film is deep enough and rewarding enough and thought provoking enough that the viewer feels graced by that sad ending, rather than cheated by it.

About sad endings not being commercial. Garbage. "Gone with the Wind" and "The Way We Were" both have very sad endings. The films shoveled in profits. "Jaes" -- best characters eaten by sharks. "Saving Private Ryan" -- best character dies.

The problem is not that Ambersons doesn't have a happy ending. The problem is that it doesn't cause the viewer to feel that it has earned the sad ending OW wanted for it.

Ambersons is must viewing for film students. For others? Why bother?

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No work of art needs to "earn" anything simply because it might not appeal to the least intelligent audience members. A happy ending is not a default. For some reason, I suspect that Shakespeare would not have "earned" your imprimatur either, especially since not one of the works that,according to you, have "earned" the right to end unhappily is anywhere close to being a masterpiece.

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I agree some events and transitions in the film where a bit of a stretch. Isabella's submission to her son's will was not one of them. Even with the butchered film and not having read the screen play, it's obvious her behavior was consistent. She had spoiled her son unmercifully his entire life. She had ruthlessly denied her love for Eugene and his love for her when he got drunk once in their youth. Why not continue spoiling her son and denying her love? The audience is suppose to see these as commendable and admirably traits. The truly ridiculous event was her son's remarkably transition from thoughtless and self centered to caring and responsibly immediately upon his mother's death. Though, this detraction maybe explained by the studio's editing. I enjoyed the film despite it's limitations. I agree with most of the reasons behind the raving reviews. I also enjoyed 'The Graduate', a classic. I don't believe denying your true love to continue spoiling your child helps lead to a caring and responsibly son and a happily ever after ending.

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The truly ridiculous event was her son's remarkably transition from thoughtless and self centered to caring and responsibly immediately upon his mother's death.
Law won't pay. Could you please organise a job for me as a powder monkey? Let me make a few calls.

Good grief!

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You are insane. The movie is a beautifully constructed, layered masterpiece, even in its lacerated form. I can only think a vapid person would find it to be vapid. The real ending/climax comes in George's comeuppance scene, which thankfully remains intact. It's clearly a tragedy as a once great societal family comes to terms with its financial/spiritual ruin in the wake of a radically changing industrialized world.

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^^agreed. I thought the film had interesting shots, sets, and clever dialogue.

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Your taste is all in your mouth. The Magnificent Ambersons is ... magnificent. It's a tragedy that what we have is a butchered version of a truly great film. In one sense you're right. It is deeply flawed, because of what the studio did to it. Still, what remains is enthralling. It's like looking at the Elgin Marbles, longing after all that lost grandeur


You know the ancient Marbles are a perfect metaphor for this work of art. What we have at botom is a beautiful 'ruin' of a film. I don't think it can ever be put together again as it was originally shot just like the Parthenon. But to negate the film because all its parts aren't there as in the original? I think it's better to dispense with the masochism and enjoy the brilliance of the film and acting. Exuberance oozes through the film but there's alss that palpable semblance of melancholy, desires unfulfilled and a lack of awareness which just seeps through the characters. And all that heavy "wood" in the Amberson house, what a burden on George's shoulders. And you could see that guy couldn't handle what life had to offer him. He sure wasn't going to be a 20th century man like Morgan.

And as for those Freudian associations, it looked as if Morgan/Isabel and Lucy/George were probably the likely pairings but the pull was drawn inexorably more towards father/daughter and mother/son. Not sure what Tarkington was trying to say there in the context of family dissolution. I'll leave it to the psychoanalysts...;-)...

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Great comment, and i agree with you wholeheartedly!

In fact perhaps Orson himself would have appreciated your analysis :)

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It's not the lost ending it's the lost ballroom scene. If you are going to attack something at least get your facts straight.

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Shoulda had some big explosions and stuff, or some vampires!

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I have to agree. I expected so much more from this film, but I kept getting disappointed as the minutes slowly moved by. I can barely even understand what was going on. I understood the main plot line, but the dialogue confused me to death. Not to mention the fact that the love story was overly sad!

Like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel...

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Goodbye.

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Glad to see this post remaining in what seems to be a slowly diminishing interest in this old film as the years go by, and it looks like any hopes of an original copy turning up are literally fading away. Sometimes opposite points of view are the most interesting and generate the greatest response, and this is a perfect exmaple. I remember one critical negative view of Hitchcock's "Vertigo", from an obviouxly young person, who made some very valid points, that generated umpteen responses just like this one. Unfortunately, IMDB slowly deletes them as time goes on. Thanks to the original poster and all the people who responded with very interesting comments (my own single one is somewhere in the middle of all this).

RSGRE

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I thoroughly enjoy this movie; both the story and the way it was made. I've never been a fan of Citizen Kane so I was a little worried about seeing Welles' next movie. I saw similarities but much to my surprise I did not have the same reaction I had when I suffered through CK.

I did find the ending a bit questionable. Something seemed off but even that wasn't enough to ruin the movie for me. I learned later that the movie was cut up and re-edited changing Welles' original vision. I finally understood why the end seemed so different. Whatever other changes there were I was not able to detect.

Who knows how I would have felt about Welles' version. I wish I had the option to see it and make that determination but I don't so I have to go with the movie I did see. I can understand why Welles' would have a problem with it but I loved it. It was sad, gloomy, and hard to take but those factors helped make it what it is and play an important role in delivering the message of the movie.

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I don't think the entire footage would have helped this film for several reasons:

1. Joseph cotton , after watching the recut version said that the original would not have been better.

2. The audiences laughed at some of the scenes they later edited out, because they were laughable and also they didn't like George being made out to be such a jerk, some of those scenes that showed him acting that way were cut out also, another thing that was cut out was showing Major Ambersons' grave, right after Isabel died. the audiences didn't like having two main characters die in succession. I don't think what was cut out the film would prevent it from being a bunch of choppy half bakes sequences, I just think the difference would be there would be more of them.



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1. Joseph Cotten later remarked that he believed the original was, indeed, better but was concerned about trying to make the film as successful as possible from a box office perspective at the time.

2. Not all the cutting was related to material the preview audiences reportedly laughed at; what hurt the most was the removal of nearly all references to how the Ambersons' fortune was lost which is crucial to understanding the story along with the significant tonal changes in the final third.

3. The remake is horrible and does not follow Welles' original screenplay - the drama was padded out to fill a four-hour television window and is vastly different from Welles' initial long version.

4. If you feel the recutting was similar to what was done to BRAZIL then you must believe AMBERSONS was radically changed. To my mind, the studio-edited version of BRAZIL (the one that played once on TV and is included as the "Love Conquers All" version on the Criterion release) is a complete bastardization and far worse than how the re-edit of Welles' film turned out!

Not even Welles thought everything in the original 131 min. cut was golden and was willing to work at shortening and improving it. That most of his suggestions were ignored and so much original material jettisoned is why "film nerds" long to see the original cut. I'm glad you like the film as is - I just wish we had both versions available.

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I don't consider this to be one of his masterpieces. The cutting hurts terrible. But even if it were intact , it seems to be missing a lead character. Tim Holt's George Minafur hasn't enough stature to carry the latter part of the film.

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I agree that Holt as George hasn't the stature to carry the film as the lead. The film was intended to be an ensemble piece in which several of the characters were given equal weight; the re-cutting creates the impression that George is to be seen as the lead character. Notably, Welles ended the film with a lengthy scene between Eugene and Fanny with George absent altogether (the re-shot ending does this as well, but by changing the setting to outside George's hospital room, the viewer wonders why the reconciliation scene inside that room isn't shown).

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How do you know it was intended to be an ensemble piece in which several characters were gives equal weight. Ok, i'm not saying that isn't true. However even if that was what it was supposed to be before they changed it, then how do we know that would have made for a better film. I guess what i'm trying to say is that we don't really know if it would have been better if they didn't change anything. Would you admit that it's at least possible that it's better the way it is now, than what it would have been?

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While we can't judge how the deleted material would actually work in the context of the film nor can we evaluate the performances of the actors in this lost footage, we do know the content of the material that was excised and how the film was originally structured. From just a story logic perspective, there is crucial information that was eliminated, so I would say having that information in the film would make the story better. The poor quality of the final two scenes in the released version (both re-shoots after Welles had left) are really out-of-place and I can't imagine they're an improvement over what Welles had shot. Just listening to the music cues Bernard Herrmann composed for the final two scenes (replaced by new music by Roy Webb in the released version) demonstrates a more consistent tone with what has come before.

Taken as a whole, I cannot believe that the released version is a better film than the longer version Welles had prepared. However, I do think there are probably numerous moments throughout where the tightening up of scenes could very well have improved how specific scenes played out. Welles didn't consider the initial 131 min. edit to be final and fully intended to make further cuts and trims. In fact, some of his suggestions were taken into account when the film was being re-edited.

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We cannot judge what the Welles cut would have been as it was butchered by the RKO scissors.


So I hate to rate it as it feels like an unfinished movie. The cinematography by Cortez (most scenes) and some scenes are simply exquisite. So I guess there was a masterpiece in the making. Now it is an excellent movie with masterful scenes.



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I think it would have been worse had they not changed it. Of course Orson said otherwise he liked to tell tall tales a lot.

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I agree that crucial information was eliminated, but that doesn't mean if they had left it in the movie would be better, for all we know maybe the excised footage wasn't really good. I'd say that's the reason they cut it in the first place.

I think they probably didn't use it because it sucked. I mean if it made the story better, then they would have used it. Because at this point Welles was still just staring out in films(yea I realize he made a great movie already but still), hadn't quite figured it all out yet. Which is why the studio stepped in and changed some things. Or a lot of things you could say.

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"The poor quality of the final two scenes in the released version (both re-shoots after Welles had left) are really out-of-place and I can't imagine they're an improvement over what Welles had shot."

I have to say - I hate the ending of this film, as released, and I also hate the ending of the film Welles had shot, if what is reported to be 'the end' in the Wiki article is to be believed.

Not really talking about cinematography though. My distaste for both concerns the fate of George. All throughout the film he is an obnoxious boor. I had no sympathy for him or his behavior, nor can I suspect that many people can. There is all this talk of him getting his 'comeuppance' - but really, that's not true. Despite 30+ years of downright despicable behavior, in the end, he winds up with the girl he so does not deserve, and on top of that, is saved from financial ruin because Eugene and Lucy are well off. Where is the comeuppance? It was fleeting, barely a few minutes in the film. So he had to swallow his pride and scrape at the factory for a few months at most, then is saved forever. Ugh. Terrible.

On top of that, we are never really shown George realizing his spoiled, controlling, temperamental behavior was an egregious affront to everyone with whom he interacted. He only seems 'broken' by the fact that he lost the house, his family and his fortune. In short, his possessions and his status. That sinks him into despair. Not that he was a total a$$ all of his life.

More aggravating is how/why Lucy would ever be involved with him in the first place. Here is a boy/young man who, from the day she met him, ridiculed and mocked her father, and it only got worse from there. Yet, she sticks with him? Why oh why would she do this? I could not understand that at all, it made absolutely no sense. There was one scene where George's uncle makes a comment about how fighting her father was a strange way to endear himself to her. But yet, it didn't seem to matter. And this makes absolutely no sense to me. You never see Lucy say "you treat my father like dirt, get the heck out of my life." This was beyond frustrating.

In the Wiki article, it has this as a 'deleted scene': 'After Fanny and George move out of the Amberson mansion, George wanders through town and gets his comeuppance. Cinematographer Stanley Cortez filmed a long tracking shot revealing the empty and decaying mansion. Cortez was extremely proud of this shot, but Welles did not use it in his final cut.'

That would have been a perfect ending to the film, right there. Credits role. None of this nonsense with George getting the girl and Eugune and Fanny smiling happily at each other. Or even Welles's version where Eugune leaves Fanny at the boarding house. In that version (from what I read), George and Lucy still wind up together. The only fitting ending is George really getting his comeuppance. At least for me.

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bmurray_sucks says > 1. Joseph cotton , after watching the recut version said that the original would not have been better.
I tend to agree but since you use the word 'would' it means Cotten never saw the original version. I realize he was in the movie, was close to Welles, and had worked on many of his projects but I don't think that gives him greater insight than Welles himself. He's merely expressing an opinion like everyone else.

I believe Welles had a vision for the movie he wanted to make. It may or may not have been a great movie but we don't know since he never got a chance to finish that movie. Further, it would be hard for anyone else to make the same movie he had in mind especially when so much of it was edited out. Cotten, like the other actors may have known what scenes were filmed but he wouldn't necessarily have known how Welles planned to use that footage.

The audiences laughed at some of the scenes they later edited out...
Unless and until someone sees the movie Welles intended to make, I think it's hard to say how it would have turned out. Movies are a sum of their parts; scenes taken out of context don't really represent the whole. Recently I saw a documentary on the making of Gone with the wind. It's a long movie and a classic by most people's standards yet during the making of it, there were ups and downs and problems that seemed insurmountable. It's amazing the movie ever got made. Had they stopped at some point or chopped up most of it to make a smaller movie, chances are it might not have been nearly as good.


Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

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I don't know why people think it would have been any good after all...Joseph cotton said, the original cut, was not better.
Just to clear things up, joseph cotton saw it, and said, it was not great.

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In a letter Cotten wrote to Welles shortly after the initial previews of AMBERSONS, he expressed disappointment that the film wasn't better received by the audience. Trying to analyze the poor audience reaction, he concluded that Welles had made a film closer to the tone of a Chekov play than to Tarkington's novel. He also noted that, to him, the film played like a series of second acts with no clear climax and an ending that arrived arbitrarily. I think Cotten's criticism has validity, but he was influenced by the poor reaction of the majority of the preview audience (not the entire audience, however; about 40% of those who filled out the survey cards called the film "good" to "masterpiece").

Importantly, in the late 1980s, Cotten said he felt the re-shooting and re-editing was a mistake and that they should have left Welles' original cut alone: it was the better one. So, he changed his opinion on the whole affair.

Welles darkening the tone of the story is one of the strengths of his adaptation, in my opinion. The "series of second acts with no clear climax" structure is essentially how the novel progresses. One might notice that the structure of CITIZEN KANE is fairly unconventional as well. Had that film been given a similar preview that went badly, I can see folks calling the structure too episodic with little character growth. As for AMBERSONS, Welles' original structure appears quite inspired: a series of paired sequences (two kitchen scenes, two porch scenes, two street scenes, two staircase scenes, etc.) in which the first scene appears in the film's first half and is ironically commented upon by its paired scene which occurs in the film's second half.

Like KANE (and Welles' never-produced film version of HEART OF DARKNESS), AMBERSONS was more of an art film that RKO needed to be a popular success. The studio mistakenly assumed the popularity of Welles' personage would translate into big box office in regards to his films. That his directorial ideas did not result in financially successful films does not mean that those ideas are significantly flawed. KANE is now acknowledged as one of the highlights of great film-making; sadly, there is no chance for a reappraisal of what Welles had truly intended as his follow-up.

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It isn't a difficult assessment to arrive at, given a narrow view of film. Fortunately, film is an art form that appeal to many tastes, many quite different. To be sure, we don't all read the same sort of novels--there are choices.

AMBERSONS isn't going to appeal to everybody, for more than one reason. For one, it is incomplete. Welles, for whatever reason, took off for South America when it was in the editing stage--he is reported to have been interested in other projects. Studio heads looked over the material and decided (and Welles was gone) that AMBERSONS wasn't commercially viable. In an effort to rescue the project, they threw out scenes (most of it lost forever) and chopped up many others. So it's a mess.

Otherwise, notice that most scenes in the movie have been shot in ways that Hollywood had never seen before. Any book on the movie could spell out--we don't have space here. Welles was doing more than making one movie; he was creating a new vocabulary for making films, a process he started with CITIZEN KANE. I enjoy observing his creation of a new vocabulary. But I see how some others would not.

So watch the films you like. There's a great deal of choice.

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