MovieChat Forums > Fantasia (1941) Discussion > Forget Sunflower, people

Forget Sunflower, people


This post regards a long-censored stereotypically portrayed black centaur in Fantasia, who's name is Sunshine.

I am the most anti-censorship person in the world, but I've always drawn the line on this one. It's a Disney movie. In terms of target market, children take precedent over cinema/animation/music buffs.

I know I would like to someday show all my favorite childhood movies to my own children, and a 5-year-old will not understand that what they're seeing is a reflection of the time and culture in which the film was made. It doesn't matter how you explain it, because the concept is just too unusual for a child. And it would be hard to include both versions on one set, because then there's the marketing headache of labeling one "Racist Version."

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Should there also be a "No Nudity Version" of Fantasia? Because some parents don't want their kids to see that. Or a "No Pagan Gods" version? I know personally some parents who might freak out over their kids seeing that.

Is Fantasia really for kids? Or we just assuming that if the Disney name is on something that means it's for the elementary school set? Or just because something is animated?

And it wouldn't be called "Racist Version" any more than the director's cut of some erotic thriller is called the "More Boobs and Blood Version."



I disagree with you, but I'm pretty sure you're not Hitler.
- Jon Stewart

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I already stated my point as to why this is fundamentally for the kids. (It's a Disney movie!) And kids would not notice that there's nudity. I mean - only the harpies had nipples and you only get a glance at them. Furthermore, being sensitive to a crowd that's offended by Pagan Gods is not nearly on the same level as being sensitive to people who are offended by racial stereotypes.

I don't see how you could explain that one version is censored for "embarrassing stereotypes," and then immediately follow that with, "but if you really want to see them, here they are, because we personally don't see racism as a big deal!" It's never going to happen.

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A child would no more recognize or be offended by an extremely minor character in this film then they would be offended by Pagan Gods or the nudity t hat appears in this film.

Even as a child of the late-80s I grew up on some Looney Tunes cartoons that are now deemed either racially "insensitive" or "offensive" and I think I turned out just fine. So did millions of other people who saw those cartoons or happened to see Sunflower before the sequence was cut.

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It's not that I think a child would be offended by this character. That would be ridiculous.

My issue is that it could influence a child's attitude towards black people. No, it's not going to instantly make them think black people are subhuman. But when you consider how prevalent and tangible a lot of racial tension and general racism (conscious or unconscious) still are in this world, it seems unnecessary to throw an outdated stereotype like this into the mix.

I will just lastly mention that I am not hypersensitive. I'm just realistic. For instance, I am 100% offended by the newly censored version of Huckleberry Finn and think that it undermines a huge portion of Twain's message to censor such a masterpiece. However, Twain used racial slurs to a very anti-racist purpose. Whoever designed sunflower was just racist. And, the fewer offensive stereotypes that we expose our young children to, the better.

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I've always felt that the easy fix to this would be for Disney to include the original, uncut version as a secret easter egg on the disc using seamless branching. That way the kids, and most casual viewers for that matter, would simply watch the edited version without even being aware of all the Sunflower controversy. And all the anti-censorship people would be able look up where the easter egg is, and watch the uncut version in all its glory. Everyone would be happy.

Does that sound unreasonable?

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For me the entire Olympus part could have been skipped. I thought it was cheesy and cringeworthy.

As for racial sterotyping, it depends on your background, I suppose.
Watching Tom and Jerry as a kid, I always thought the black woman kicking Tom outside, was the owner of the house, and not just the housemaid.

Was the black pegasus also meant to be african?

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The concern expressed, that Sunflower might cause non-black children to have a negative image of black people, was I think a more legitimate concern at the time the movie came out (1940) than now (the 2010s). One's image of black people is set mostly by the black people one knows.

For instance, in high school my most faithful defender against any harsh words or false rumors was my own sister, and a girl named Carmell was not far behind. There was nothing Sunflower about Carmell. And then there was Bucky, who I barely knew but who was always cheerful and friendly, and Minnie, with whom I had several dates, and Lisa, with whom I would have liked to but never did. Nothing Sunflower about any of them. So my image of black people is quite positive, because that's what I knew growing up. My image of black people was set by the actual living black people I knew or even just sort-of knew.

But suppose my high school had been segregated. Suppose that I had never met an actual black person. All I would have known about "those people" would have been media depictions. And let's face it, most media depictions of black people in 1940 weren't that positive. In a situation like that, Sunflower could have influenced me. I might have become an adult who believed all sorts of dumb things.

So we have the situation of a character who might have negatively affected children when she was still in the movie, but has no power to now. So naturally NOW is when she is excised, for the sake of the children.



I disagree with you, but I'm pretty sure you're not Hitler.
- Jon Stewart

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My high school had about 4 black kids in it. The majority of black culture to which white kids in my school were exposed, came from the media. No my school doesn't speak for all schools, but neither does yours.

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For what is worth I completely agree with you. It's just stupid that some of these people are comparing this issue with nudity. Nudity is natural. Racism is not, it's something freakin' terrible. And I'm not black, but still I found extremly offensive how all the horse people in the movie are beautiful and looking for love and stuff, but the stereotipical black one is there just to serve the white horse-chick and be funny. That shouldn't have been made in the first place.
And, while I agree with the other poster that "animation" shouldn't be synonymous with childish or children, still Disney has made a name in animation for kids. Since it's beginning to present. So, yes, Fantasia is not exclusively for children but it was tought for them as well, and they shouldn't be exposed to the 40's racism.

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Having seen the Sunflower clips on youtube, I don't think they're any more or less offensive than the chinese mushrooms during the Nutcracker Suite sequence which are equally racially stereotyped.

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Oh, there are a lot of differences between the two stereotypes. First of all, the mushrooms at least were not drawn as real chinese people. They're just mushrooms. Sunflower is completely drawn as a black human being, even though it is half horse. Besides that, the mushrooms are just dancing, but the black girl is serving the white people. I mean, what we have here is not only a black person serving whites, but she is also smaller, weirder, and overall uglier than the way the other horse-people were drawn. How can you say that's the same as the dancing mushrooms? It is not.



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I can't agree. The Mushrooms are as obviously Chinese as Sunflower is black, down to the depiction of slits for "eyes" and their caps as conical hats, not to mention the dancing bowed over with "hands" clasped in front of them, a pose you would never depict today outside, say, a stage production of the Mikado.

Sunflower is smaller because she's quite clearly younger than the white centaurs, an additional reason why she is subservient to them. Not much of a mitigating factor I admit but worth pointing out.

I should make it clear I am against censorship and would like Disney to have the courage to release Fantasia uncut (and release the unfairly maligned Song of the South on DVD) I just think its silly and inconsistent that one dubious scene has been cut whereas another potentially just as offensive is left in.

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I completely disagree. Those lame excuses that she's the smaller and uglier servant cause she's younger are, well, lame. I agree that the mushrooms are portrayed as chinese people, but they are obviously at least not drawn as human beings. The racist excuses people use are lamer everytime I read them. "She's quite clearly younger", geez! really man??


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Both Sunflower and the Mushrooms are clearly recognisable racial stereotypes. As a half-human creature, Sunflower is the slightly more overt, but i'd hardly call the mushrooms subtle, most children will get the chinese reference straight away.

Sunflower is younger, in fact she is a stereotypical young black maidservant, much like Prissy (played by Butterfly McQueen) in Gone With The Wind, released the year before Fantasia. That does not make her any less offensive.

I am not saying Sunflower is not offensive to today's audiences, what I am saying is that in my opinion the Chinese Mushrooms are no better or worse, but they have been left in. If Disney want to be consistent they should cut out either both or neither.

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I just can't agree that the mushrooms are as offensive as Sunflower. I agree that they're recognizible as chinese, but their role (which is just plain dancing) is most definitely not as offensive as the role Sunflower plays. Not by a long shot. And apparently a lot of people agrees with me since I haven't seen any chinese people complaining about them.



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Sunflower, in addition to her duties of waiting on the blonde blombshell centaurette is also shining her hoof. She's also giving a stereotypical pose of "bossiness" with her hands on her hips and her lip poked out in a pout.

Then she walks BEHIND the blonde centaurette as if this is her rightful place and she's proud of it.

It's offensive and was par for the time period. The only hope one would have now is that while it is on YouTube, it can be still regarded as offensive, because the intent in creating the character, much like the jive talking crows in Dumbo was to add demeaning humor at the expense of another culture.

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First, let's remember that issues like this one should be on a case by case basis, and that there are plenty of gray areas and no hard and fast answers.

I would venture an educated guess that Disney received plenty of sincere complaints by or on behalf of our our African-American citizens during the 1963 re-release, at a time when these people might have "known their place" in 1940 but by 1963 were emboldened by the civil rights campaigns inspired by Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King et. al. The 1969 release of the edited version was three years after Walt's death, but for all we know he might have approved it while he was still alive. Some of us commend Disney for adapting to evolving changes in what is considered acceptable while others criticize the company for allegedly caving in to political pressure.

Now that others have mentioned it, I can see how Sunflower's appearance and actions would evoke thoughts of maidservants who were slaves in the old South, or their children and grandchildren in similar occupations in enforced second-class citizenship in the segregated society that emerged after the Civil War. In the light of this, I would conclude that Disney made a debatable but reasonable choice here. Sunflower played only a bit part in this 20-minute episode, and the overall look and feel is not hurt by her absence. I do think we would be well served if the original is made available for educational purposes, without having to resort to bootleg copies from various web sites.

In my opinion,trying to make an analogy to the mushrooms in the Chinese dance is absurd, for reasons that have been well stated in this thread.

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In that case you're certainly NOT "the most anti-censorship person in the world." Far from it in fact...

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Couldn't they just release a 2 disk set with one disk being the uncensored uncut version and have a warning screen before the film starts in case some people still don't pick up on the implications.

Both sides win this way?

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