Caitlyn Gender and Elliot Page should hook up.
They're both single and have something in common. Why not?
shareNeither one has a dick!
share
MovieChat Forums > Caitlyn Jenner Discussion > Caitlyn Gender and Elliot Page should ho...
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YOUR CONTENT IS A TRUE DISSAPOINTMENT SOMETIMES.π
shareIf people tell me that I have to believe that a woman who transitions to a man is a real man or else I'm a transphobe, they've left the door open for me to criticize. They're expecting me to agree with them. At least Caitlyn doesn't see it that way. He just stated that trans women shouldn't compete in female sports.
shareI don't think you're a transphobe per se, but you do come across as an asshole when talking about trans people. I don't think you are an asshole, but I do think that you do have a prejudice against trans people. I just don't understand why it matters to you? How does it make a difference in your life what someone's gender is?
I'm not asking you to understand it. I don't think that anyone who hasn't experienced what it's like could ever possibly have an understanding of it. But I do think that perhaps you could try to understand that these individuals are going through something that is traumatic for them. You may think that that is an exaggeration, but it is their entire identity. It's who they are. We can argue the science behind it until the cows come home, but these people exist, and they have existed throughout history. You can accept that, or you can't, but you don't have to be a dick about it.
I don't care if someone is trans. I can completely understand how someone can feel they are a completely different gender. It's the same way I can understand how someone schizophrenic sees things that aren't there and how people who are anorexic think they are overweight.
But here is the problem I have: I wouldn't tell someone who is anorexic that they are overweight. I wouldn't tell someone who is schizophrenic that the fake image they see is real. But why must I tell someone who thinks they are a gender that they are the gender they transition to? It's seems very selective. It's gender dysphoria which is a mental illness, but I'm supposed to treat that one different than other mental illnesses. By doing that, I feel like I am enabling delusion.
But why does it affect me? That's a popular question that people ask. If women say they fear a transgender female walking into a bathroom, who am I to tell those women they shouldn't shouldn't have that fear? How about how I don't have an attraction to transgender women? Why should I have to be attracted to transgender women just to avoid people telling me I'm a transphobe? Why should a woman have to compete against a transgender female in sports? Better yet, if transgender people are telling me that gender is a social construct, they're essentially saying that I'm only a male because I have been indoctrinated by society and conformed to the made up "construct" of gender.
I don't see how me thinking a man who transitions to a woman is still a man is considered offensive, but someone telling me I'm only a man because I confirmed to society's standards isn't offensive.
First off, how do you know they are wrong?
Really all I'm saying is that I'm not asking you to agree with it, but why are you posting on their page? Why are you using a name like Gender instead of Jenner? That is being a dick. I don't understand it all but I'm willing to listen to those who tell me that biological sex and gender are two different things. I don't know if gender dysphoria is chemical, hormonal, or genetic. I don't know how to treat gender dysphoria, do you? If there is no medical treatment for it and I can't seem to find anything that does treat it, who I am to judge someone who transitions so that they can feel healthy? Do you make fun of schizophrenic people? Do you mock anorexics? Probably not. Do you find other mental illnesses offensive? So why do you do it with trans people?
Please don't use the washroom argument. Please find me a case where an actual trans person has attacked anyone in a washroom. If women fear another woman using their washroom, maybe they shouldn't be using public washrooms.
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Really all I'm saying is that I'm not asking you to agree with it, but why are you posting on their page?Β
Bruce doesn't care. And I don't mean because he's not coming to the site, I mean because he said he doesn't care about pronoun use and even this weekend said that trans women shouldn't compete in women's sports because they have an advantage.
I don't know how to treat gender dysphoria, do you?
We should treat it as any other mental illness. You help them, not encourage their illness. I wouldn't tell someone who is slitting their wrists because of their depression to continue slitting their wrists. I don't see how telling transgender people not to mutilate themselves is any different. It's gotten to the point where children as young as 8 feel they are transgender and if you are against them transitioning at that age, you're called a transphobe and even illegal. That means parents can't even stop their own children from doing this. Why is conversion therapy illegal, but helping anorexic and schizophrenic people through medication not? share
How do you help them if not accept them? There is no treatment for it. Medical professionals are the ones encouraging transitions. Do you know the difference between gender dysphoria, gender incongruence, or body dysmorphic disorder? I don't. So again, who are you to what is or isn't helping? Conversion therapy is targeting sexual orientation, and is not something that can be medically treated.
I accept transgenders. I understand their struggle. But self mutilation is not the way to do it. There's no cure for depression, but it's something people have to deal with. But I know you wouldn't just allow people to kill themselves. That's what suicide hotlines are for.
But conversion therapy is not just for sexual orientation.https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49344152 Why not make transgender conversion therapy legal is there are people willing to try it?
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Do you make fun of schizophrenic people? Do you mock anorexics? Probably not.
Of course I don't. The reason why I do it for trans people is that they're telling me to accept their delusion while also telling people that cis genders are terrible people. I've never once heard an anorexic person criticize someone who didn't have that illness. The same for someone who are schizophrenic.
Please don't use the washroom argument. Please find me a case where an actual trans person has attacked anyone in a washroom. If women fear another woman using their washroom, maybe they shouldn't be using public washrooms.
If someone has to take hormone shots to change their gender, then that is them essentially saying what it takes to be a certain gender.
Almost half of all transgender people who are in the prison in the UK alone are there for sex related offences. And they were overwhelmingly born male. Here's a source: https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/ The BBC also reported it as well.
Sorry for the long posts. share
I just read the article and one thing that I didn't notice was who the trans individuals raped. Were they men or women? Also, how many non transgender women (ie men) were in prison for rape?
It's not about who they were raping in jail. The point I was making is that they were in there for sexual related offences. Whatever happened in jail was separate.
shareI never suggested they were raping individuals in prison. I was looking at how many were in prison from rape.
You were suggesting that women were unsafe in washrooms.
I'm not sure. But if a huge percentage of them were in prisons for sexual related offenses, I would assume that women wouldn't feel safe in bathrooms. I wouldn't question them.
shareI am much more fearful for a woman like Caitlyn Jenner using a man's washroom and being raped, sexually assaulted, physically assaulted, or killed, than I am of them sharing a washroom with me. Women's washrooms have stalls for everyone. I have no fear of them. If a straight cis man is going to dress up as a woman to assault a woman in a washroom, he was going to assault a woman anyway.
I hear your concerns. When you are not disparaging these individuals you have points. I may not agree with them, but you aren't being an asshole. The second you start name calling, I lose all respect for any concerns you might have.
My opinion on all of it is that I don't understand it. But it's not about me. It's about them. You not accepting them is about you, not them.
When you are not disparaging these individuals you have points.
Again, most transgender people feel that gender is a social construct and I find that insulting to me. I don't think being disparaging to them is that wrong, to a fair extent.
Having said that, I will never call them trannies or wish harm on them. In fact, I called someome out on the politics board for using "tranny" a few months ago. share
The idea that gender is a social construct is not exclusive to trans individuals. I'm not a scientist, I honestly don't know what is or what isn't. Again. It's not about me. It doesn't affect me. Someone living their life and having a medical issue that has nothing to do with anyone else shouldn't be insulting to anyone. You are making it about yourself.
shareIf it stayed like that, you'd be right. I don't deny that there are trans people who feel the way they are. I don't deny that a man who feels like a woman feels that way. I'm not trying to convince them otherwise.
But to make it illegal to misgender them, or to make it illegal for a parent to refuse to allow their child to transition until they turn 18, or to force biological males to compete in sports against biological women, those are examples where I'm not making it about myself.
How does any of that affect you?
shareNot me personally, but it affects others.
shareDo you concern yourself with everything that affects others?
shareAs I said earlier, I called out a user here for using the word "tranny". It has nothing to do with me, but he needed to be called out.
shareI guess I should have asked the number of transwomen who are looking to compete in Olympic sports? What about intersex people? Or athletes who dope or take hormones?
I don't know enough on how transitioning before on turns 18 can affect an individual. I don't think anyone does. That is up to doctors and courts to decide, so I don't think it helps anything to judge on something that isn't an issue for all transpeople.
In Canada, bill C-16 does not make it an actual crime to use the wrong gender accidentally, but if it's continuous and deliberate it could be construed as a crime. That is tantamount to hate speech.
gender
[ΛjendΙr]
NOUN
either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.
"a condition that affects people of both genders" Β· [more]
members of a particular gender considered as a group.
"social interaction between the genders" Β· [more]
the fact or condition of belonging to or identifying with a particular gender.
"video ads will target users based only on age and gender" Β· [more]
grammar
(in languages such as Latin, Greek, Russian, and German) each of the classes (typically masculine, feminine, common, neuter) of nouns and pronouns distinguished by the different inflections that they have and require in words syntactically associated with them. Grammatical gender is only very loosely associated with natural distinctions of sex.
IT MAKES SENSE TO ME...I REALLY DONT UNDERSTAND THE INSULTING PART.π€
shareDictionaries were forced to change their definitions because people were pressuring them.https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/09/why-a-controversial-definition-of-the-word-woman-doesnt-necessarily-mean-the-dictionary-is-sexist.html
shareHONESTLY...I MIGHT BE IN SOMEWHAT AGREEMENT WITH YOU...IF NOT FOR MY DAUGHTER...I SEE THE WORLD VERY DIFFERENTLY THESE DAYS.
shareYou see, that's my point. Your daughter has never told you that she feels like a boy (I'm assuming) and you never told her she feels like a girl. She was just born that way. You didn't put that on her.
But as a side note, I don't understand how people can say gender is a social construct and get hormone shots. It's like they're telling me hormones are what make gender, not society dictating it.
"You see, that's my point. Your daughter has never told you that she feels like a boy"
ACTUALLY...THATS PRETTY CLOSE TO WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.
What you are basically saying is that anyone can identify as what ever they want. No skin off your nose. I agree.
But, the rest of us shouldn't be socially pressured to buy into their delusion.
As for the bathroom/locker room bit, should your mother, sister or daughter be forced into sharing space with a person who has a penis?
"They" want "equal" rights. Fine. But, when do the rights of a minority usurp the rights of the majority?
This is what, I think, pisses people off and polarizes this entire issue. It's not enough that they are "different." They want everyone to agree with their delusion.
And they've even inserted themselves in the LGB movements. LBG are for people who are attracted to the same sex or both genders. But being trans is about what gender they identify as. How are those the same?
shareAnd they've even inserted themselves in the LGB movements.
I've always agreed with this. Being "trans" is entirely different from being "gay." It's like they're "hitching their wagon" to another's cause. Maybe they think they'll get more attention that way.
share
It matters cause they're shoving it down our throats every chance they get. If they would just be who they are and go about their lives that'd be different. But the fact that they're screaming in our face "look at me, I'm a tranny" is annoying. That's the bottom line.
sharePlease explain to me how it is shoved down your throat? They are just more visible now.
shareI READ THIS WHOLE THREAD AND THE COMMON COMPLAINT SEMS TO BE "THEY ARE SHOVING IT DOWN OUT THROATS"...THE OVER USE OF THE WORD "THEY" AS IF EVERY TRANS PERSON SHARES A HIVE MIND IS THE MOST OFFENSIVE BIT...I PERSONALLY KNOW TWO TRANS PEOPLE...NEITHER ARE SHOVING ANYTHING DOWN ANYONES THROAT...THEY ARE BOTH MELLOW,COOL,FUNNY PEOPLE...SURE THERE IS A FACTION OF EGO MANIAC WHINERS...BUT EVERY KIND OF PEOPLE HAVE A FACTION LIKE THAT...JUDGING SO MANY PEOPLE ON THE ACTIONS OF THE LOUD,ASSHOLEY ONES IS RIDICULOUS.
shareYou're right. This person is transgender and is pretty cool. https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/prison-service-needs-work-facts-not-fiction Too bad there aren't more like them though.
shareI have two trans people in my life as well. One is a trans activist, but outside of her work, she doesn't push anything on anyone. My cousin's stepson is trans and you wouldn't know it at all.
shareAnd I'm cool with that.
Have you seen the backlash Caitlyn Jenner has been getting for saying that trans women shouldn't compete with women? Caitlyn doesn't want to push anything on anyone, but there are too many trans people who are calling him ignorant. He said he didn't care about pronouns and got backlash for that too. They're pushing transgender ideologies on transgenders who don't want it pushed on them.
And there are a few loud people in all groups. That doesn't mean that all trans people or allies feel the same way or should be called names because of it.
Like I said, I can understand disagreements and differences of opinions. When I first replied to you it was about name calling, and general disrespect.
So do you believe that trans "women," who have biologically male bodies, should be allowed to compete against biological female girls in sports?
shareWhere did I say that?
It's not my area of expertise. That's up the the governing bodies of those sports to decide. I think it might come down to hormone levels, but I don't know. I really can't have an opinion with any weight as I don't know what exactly the parameters are. I know there is a runner from south africa who is intersex and there as been debate about her. She's actually had to prove that she has female sex organs. I don't know if I think that's right or wrong either.
I never claimed that you said anything of the sort. I was just asking you a genuine question, because you seem like a reasonable person.
shareSorry. I am a bit on the defensive and have my hackles up. I apologize for being short with you.
I think it's a good question and it's one that I really don't have an answer to. If female hormones can change a transwomen's muscular structure then that's one thing to consider. I think it's a slippery slope either way and it's not really a hill I need to die on.
WHILE FILMING G.I. JANE...DEMI MOORE CONSULTED MANY RELIABLE EXPERTS ON THE LEGITIMACY OF THE FILM...SHE WAS TOLD BY EVERY SINGLE ONE...WHEN THEY BREAK THE NUMBERS DOWN WOMEN ARE COMPETITIVE WITH MEN IN EVERY CATEGORY EXCEPT UPPER BODY STRENGTH...ITS A VAST DIFFERENCE IN THAT ONE CATEGORY,LIKE NIGHT AND DAY...THUS,I DO NOT BELIEVE IN "MIXED" SPORTS.
shareWell cool, at least you look at it... somewhat realistically. But also, notice that they chose their words very distinctly and said women are COMPETITIVE (not equal or even close) with men in the other categories. That's the nice way of saying that women can at least make the bottom of the scoreboard. Unlike in upper body strength, where women couldn't even get on the board, at all.
Good that you don't believe in "mixed" sports, but that has way more to do with sexual dimorphism than just upper body strength. It's also bone density, muscle density, height, weight, reach, lung size and subsequent oxygen content. It's ridiculous. Biological males have like 50 advantages over biological females, in any sort of physical competition.