MovieChat Forums > Politics > Jews argue that "Palestine" is made up

Jews argue that "Palestine" is made up


The so called "Palestinians" are just Arabs, and their land was just "Southern Syria", therefore they should go to their homeland of Syria, or other Arab nations, and leave Israel alone.

Basically "you should never have been here in the first place!"

"Palestine" as a proposed state is just a consequence of Israel retaking "their land", so they've created a false nationhood in order to garner power and sovereignty.

Do the Jews have a point?

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* THE JEWISH PEOPLE.

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I'm not jewish, but no, palestine doesn't exist. however you're not seeing the woods for the trees, this isn't a land problem, this has nothing to do with borders, it's a simple religious problem.

Let's say that for whatever reason, something happened 80 years ago, even 40 years ago and this land was given to some denomination of muslims? that a million muslims just got put there? do you think that it there would be such hate?

Let's say that instead of giving the jews this piece of land, they got sent to south america by the british, let's say patagonia. do you think muslim countries would recognize it? do you think that it would respected? obviously direct conflict would be impossible, but how would the muslim population see it?

We can play disney and pretend it would all be chocolates and roses, but thats not the case. I've spent a hell of a long time in europe. The hate towards jews from the muslim population is unreal.

This isn't a land thing, it's a muslim v jewish thing, the sooner the world gets that the better.

But islam hates everyone, what about armenia? what about the severe problems in nordic countries with the muslim population? what can we put that down to?

when it comes to france, spain, the UK... they tell us that the terrorism is a reaction to past colonalism, that applies to the nordics too? i could go on and on.

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Kurds/Kurdistan the exact analogy you are looking for.

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Obviously, that's justification and propaganda to excuse land theft. But, not all Jewish people believe that. Many are against the way Palestinians are treated by the Israeli government and don't support the occupation.

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The Romans renamed Israel to Palestine after the Jews opposed being occupied by the Pagan Empire.
When the Ottoman Empire occupied the middle east Palestine was just a region. When the Allies took over they kept those names. It was never a country, just part of Empires and Mandates.

OTOH, Israel was a Kingdom for centuries before that. The League of Nations (UN) recreated Israel, so it's officially a country. (the original plan had no Palestine) The Muslim hordes have been outraged ever since.

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And Arizonans are "just" Americans.

It's a poor argument. First of all, regardless of what demonym one chooses, non-Jewish people have been living in what's now called Israel for a long time. There are people who were born in a home on land that has been in their family for centuries. They cannot return to their home because they're non-Jewish. Meanwhile, there are "chosen" people born in Los Angeles who have never stepped foot outside of California, and they have a "right to return" to Israel. They have the right to "return" to a place they've never been.

European Jews reclaiming "their" land is incandescently stupid. There were non-Jewish tribes who lived on the land before Jews, and non-Jewish tribes after Jews. How can a person non-arbitrarily award the land to Jews? To further complicate matters, non-Jewish residents (aka Palestinians) had ancestors in the area who were Christian and Jewish. The territory has been a crossroads for empires, and people predictably married out and changed their religion, but still lived on the land of their ancestors.

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Their argument is that they are "a people" and deserve a homeland, so as a state, will allow their own to join them.

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An argument about "deserving" a Jewish homeland is sometimes couched in terms of affirmative action: There are many Arab countries, so Jews deserve a country of their own. Personally, I find that more compelling than hokey ancestral land claims and "Chosen People." The problem is that colonial powers did not have the moral authority to give away other people's land. Or as Gandhi said (paraphrasing), "European Jews do not have the right to enter Arab lands under the shadow of the British gun." The main argument for a homeland has long been a refuge as Jews will always be under attack. Seth Rogen has remarked, "I've always said, 'Don't put all your Jews in one basket.'" An enduring problem in international affairs stems from the British carving up the remnants of the empire in arbitrary ways.

Gandhi claimed a Jewish homeland was not about a specific tract of land, but resided in the hearts and minds of Jews. Early Zionists had thought about part of Brazil for a new Israel. AI doomer Eliezer Yudkowsky has said this conflict could have been avoided if Jews were given 1% of Canada with access to the sea. There are going to be issues with moving millions of people -- it's never problem-free -- but Canada would have been a safe distance from murderous Europe.

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I've said a lot of this in another comment, But i really don't believe that it's a land issue. Let's say that the Jewish people were given a piece of brazil or some remote area which wasn't inhabited, how do you think the muslim population around the world would react to this jewish state? Obviously war and conflict would be a little more difficult, but would it be respected or even recognized by the muslim world? even being in south america...

1500 years of history tells me this is very unlikely. Israel had the bad luck of being created in a place where the ideology there has been hostile towards them since it's very creation 1500 years ago.

We've seen attacks on jewish people by muslims in every continent on the globe, I don't see how a jewish bakery being burned down in sweden could be linked to what is happening in the middle east, if their only beef is their belief that palestine isn't free.

Maybe you could argue that, but what we've seen is that where there is a sizable population of muslims there is conflict with whoever is around them, be it buddists, jews, christians, atheists or even political ideologies, armenia the same thing, the islamic invasion of southern europe....

This isn't an argument about a piece of land, it's a pure religious conflict.

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If Arabs were supposed to be so particularly and inalterably hostile to Jews, then why would Zionists select the Middle East for safe harbor? In the late 19th century, Europe was the main threat. Do you imagine a Holocaust could happen in Germany today? A hundred years from now? Three hundred years ago it would be almost impossible to imagine that Germany and France would be allies. It was initially difficult to get Muslims to engage in suicide bombing, but ideas usually adapt to material conditions (rather than vice-versa). Palestinians had been relatively secular until recent decades. Social safety nets tend to undermine religion. Religious belief is more likely to thrive in poverty. Compare Gaza to the West Bank. However, poverty and religion are relatively common while terrorism is relatively rare. Other important factors are age (need of young men) and inequality. People who are not the poorest of the poor, but believe they would have been much better off -- the ones who feel they have lost the most -- tend to be radicalized.

As for a Swedish bakery... there are anti-police protests in London where people hold up signs that say "do not shoot" in front of police officers who are unarmed. Identity politics isn't just a big export for the Middle East.

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Israel is in the bible, it came before islam and even christianity. the bible says that this piece of land is jewish land. you might not be religious, it doesn't really matter, but there is a claim, a clear claim that it's jewish.

Islam came along 1500 years ago when other religions and ideologies ruled in the parts of the world they rule today, wasn't this colonialism? didn't the ottoman empire take many lands that weren't islamic? why is that ignored?

but you're making the very obvious mistake of thinking it's about land. it's not, it's about islamic jihad. if it was about this piece of land in the middle east, why did muslilm leaders call for a day of GLOBAL jihad?

Theres something that nobody can answer me, if texas wanted to sucede from the union and be free of the US and there was some level of conflict, tension between texas and the rest in order to sucede. do you really believe, hand on heart that texas fighting for their cause would shoot up a christmas market in oslo?

The obvious answer is no, why didn't jewish people attack europe this week after 1500 of them were killed in their homes on saturday?

Why are muslims preaching global jihad in response to an issue thats supposed to be about a piece of land in the middle east?

because it's not about israel and palestine, it's islamic jihad.

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Re: Israel in the Bible; Judaism prior to Christianity and Islam.

This was addressed earlier; see my first post in this thread. Your post misunderstands empires of the past. Locals were often murdered or absorbed. Bosnian Serbs and Muslims despise each other, but the populations are descended from the same people. As noted, Muslim Palestinians had Christian ancestors and Jewish ancestors. This is different than rather abruptly importing millions of people from distant lands. Also, a rules-based order was supposed to prevail with the creation of the UN.

Re: After arguing Biblical lands claims, you allege the "mistake" is thinking it's about land. What percentage of the world's almost 2 billion Muslims participated in the "Day of Jihad"? It is interesting how a teeny-tiny fraction of people get to define Islam. In almost every country there are extremist, non-Muslim right-wingers who hate Jews. Are they motivated by religion? Were Nazis motivated by religion? I mean, is the epithet of "Christ-killer." People talk about "blood libel." Again, religion is overlayed onto grievances in the material world. When you think about the Reformation, do you believe it was driven solely by the brilliant ideas of Martin Luther. Or there's really no such thing as new ideas -- others had criticized the church. A key difference was technology -- specifically, the printing press.

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You've written a lot but you've said nothing.

I can make it more simple, this isn't about a piece of land in the middle east, it's about islam. how do we know that?

Because in response to this MUSLIM people have spoken about GLOBAL JIHAD.

1. JIHAD is an islamic term that means struggle or better interpreted, terrorism and war in the name of allah. why bring religion into a land issue or who should live there or not? becuase it's not about land, it's about islam.

2. Why GLOBAL? why in response to this have cities around the world gone on high alert, why are there 7000 soliders in the streets of france, a dead teacher killed by a muslim yesterday, the police in hamburg putting cement things up in the streets, if this is simply a middle eastern land dispute?

I don't know where you live, surely in the west, in the US, theres nothing to stop a muslim angry about all this who gets a car and drives into a group of people in your city, what does have to do with you?

The basques in spain have a dispute with spain, they want independence, they want a basque nation, they've done terrorism for decades, but 1. why don't they call for global action? why aren't they attacking people in austria? and 2, why don't they evoke religion? you see what i'm saying?


And just because someone doesn't take part in global jihad day, doesn't mean they arent in favor of it.

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"You've written a lot but you've said nothing."

This is meaningless rhetoric. It's also false. Your non-response to the earlier refutation is instructive.

1. Re: "JIHAD" Again, this is historically challenged. If you go back to disputes over the first Zionist settlers and the next more than half-century, Palestinians were relatively non-religious. They've become more religious as their situation has become more dire.

2. For a global jihad you're reduced (again) to the equivalent of SHOUTING. You seem to think a single homicide is evidence of JIHAD whilst the vast, vast majority of Muslims have done nothing of note. You might want to attempt to think about the causal vectors for why someone resorts to terrorism. Francis Fukuyama has written a nice little book titled Identity, which looks at a rise in identity politics stemming from post-industrial anomie.

Then you suggest that I could be victim of Islamic terror. In the past ten years, toddlers have killed more Americans than terrorists, and the most common type of terrorism has been white nationalism. Terrorism has long been relatively rare.

Re: The Basque

Who in the world is contending that all aggrieved people follow the same script? The fight for a Jewish state was global in the first place.

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That's awesome, do all "A People" get a dedicated homeland...or is that only for one "A People"??

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At this point - it doesn't matter.
What matters is global military and terrorist actors screwing the entire world with more take over the world for Allah jihadi BS.

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It actually does matter. Do you have a home country?

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Most people have been given their own piece of land, didn't the US government give land and casinos, reservations to the native indians? isn't the vatican a catholic state? you can find similar things in india, where the government many years ago gave a piece of land to certain religions and peoples.

wasn't pakistan seperated from india as a means of giving a country to the muslim population in india?

i love educating people, but at times due to personal bias and ignorance, even reality isn't reality.

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Do you have a home country?

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Do you have a point?

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Palestine is a word made up by the Russian to give to them. Them embracing it still says what they are about.
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9090/soviet-union-palestinians

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Very interesting read.

Regardless of KGB meddling, which the international community is aware of (I assume), they seem to believe that a solution to the problem is a Palestinian state.

However, if this revolutionary/Jihad cause to destroy Israel will continue, state or not, Israel might be worse off, with the enemy even closer.

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Gaza has been autonomous since 2005. Have they done anything to improve the lives of their people?

Have they acted in a way which would not warrant the Iron Wall and allow meaningful commerce with their neighbor? No, they just built their war machine and will now reap the whirlwind.

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