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4,000 years ago the Scottish were most likely people of color!

posted a year ago by [deleted]
28 replies | jump to latest

https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/see-the-amazing-facial-reconstruction-of-a-bronze-age-woman-discovered-crouching-in-a-4200-year-old-grave

I wrote most likely, because they didn't have the woman's DNA so they had to make educated guesses about many of her features.

I have to admit, I was a little surprised seeing that story, but it makes sense. I think those people of color most likely had been conquered and murdered or pushed out by white people. Imperialism is deeply rooted in white cultures, after all.

Or could they have evolved to look more like the majority population of Scotland today in something like 2,000 - 3,000 years? (History and art from 1000 + years don't really describe them as people of color.). I'm not a biologist, but that doesn't seem like enough time.

The article doesn't give all the answers! Nice work by these scientists and anthropologists, though.

[–] Lord Rake (4454) a year ago

What the fck are you talking about? The article is about a sculpture an artist did without any knowledge of DNA and there isn't any mention of her not being white.

[–] [deleted] a year ago

Why don't you just type fuck? It's allowed here.

They didn't use the term "person of color" but I got that impression from her complexion and some of her features. She looked pretty dark in the picture. She had more color than most of the people I see with Scottish ancestry that I see these days, or in old art.

Maybe she's just a dark complexioned white person, you think?

They decided she might have been descended from Beaker people from central Europe. I guess they were a bit darker too? I don't know whether they are classified as people of color, though I did get that impression from the reconstruction, like I said.

At any rate, quite a change from what you typically see in Scotland now! Interesting. Europe really was always diverse.

[–] Lord Rake (4454) a year ago

"Why don't you just type fuck? It's allowed here."
Just because you like to type nasty words on here doesn't mean I have to.

That was just an artist imagining what he thinks the person would look like, she might have been green, hell I'm surprised the artist didn't make her a male for all we know she was.

[–] xanthas (3215) a year ago

All early humans were people of color.

[–] B1cKsurN (17407) a year ago

All people have color lol. "White" is a construct, and a socially accepted racial slur.

[–] AustraliBoy98 (223) a year ago

Black is the absense of colour on a spectrum, so technically black people aren't any colour at all. Lol.

[–] B1cKsurN (17407) a year ago

Not the same.

"Black People" is a historical term and only refers to one specific ethnicity of one race. It's also specific to their culture here in America.

[–] B1cKsurN (17407) a year ago

Unfortunately the climate of Scotland wouldn't cause dark skin to evolve.

This is just Woke-Applied SCIENCE!™

[–] [deleted] a year ago

Population of Scotland is exposed to a lot less sunlight than other parts of the world, so high levels of Melatonin isn't as advantageous for them.

[–] B1cKsurN (17407) a year ago

Exactly, so any ancient, dark skinned humans in Scotland would not be native...they would be migrants. Native humans from Scottland would predate these remains.

[–] Satan2016 (25525) a year ago

Dark skin prevents vitamin D formation!

[–] Quasimodo (16388) a year ago

The only reason that woman has brown skin is because they gave her brown skin in the reconstruction to be politically correct and Woke.

I have a layman's interest in anthropology so I have read a fair bit about it and it appears that humans in the cold higher latitudes evolve white skin to make more use of the weaker available sunshine as opposed to humans nearer the equator who have dark skin. Look at the Chinese who live in the north of China for example, they have white skin. So 4,000 years ago you would expect a human from Scotland to have had white skin.

[–] Lord Rake (4454) a year ago

That is an interesting theory. Or maybe the humans with white skin moved to colder climates to get away from the trouble caused by people with darker skin.

[–] Keelai (34858) a year ago

No. People in that region had dark brown skin which is what they based it on. Africans arrived in Europe 40,000 years ago, but remained with dark brown skin until 7,500 years ago in some regions. As recently as 5,000 years ago, there were plenty of brown-skinned Europeans.

“It is important because it shows that there was no prehistoric white population in Europe. The oldest modern inhabitants of our country had dark skin and blue eyes. Deal with it.”

They found that in the far east, people had lighter complexion and darker eyes. In the West, the genetic marker for lighter skin was “almost completely absent,” they said in their publication in Nature.

The lighter complexion happened gradually, over between 3,000 and 5,000 years, the scientists estimate. Some of the black population left, although there are still traces of the hunter-gatherers in the DNA of today’s Dutch, Amkreutz said. The light skin color likely came as an adaption to the low-vitamin D, grain-rich diet that stems from agriculture. Lighter skin lets more sun through, resulting in more vitamin D."
https://nltimes.nl/2023/03/02/earliest-dutch-dark-skinned-lighter-eyes-dna-research

Read my post below for further information and links:
https://moviechat.org/bd0000082/Politics/65149cd293f4d42b33bfeee8/4000-years-ago-the-Scottish-were-most-likely-people-of-color?reply=65164d981976121e5fa5b610

[–] Keelai (34858) a year ago

Her face is largely accurate except perhaps the lower jaw since that portion of the skull was missing. Her coloring is based on skin, hair and eye coloring of people in that region and era.

Early Britons had dark brown skin:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/ancient-briton-had-dark-skin-and-light-eyes-dna-analysis-shows-180968097/

The preserved 5,300 year-old iceman corpse (Ötzi) found in the Italian Alps a few years ago is dark brown, also.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/aug/16/otzi-iceman-receding-hairline-dark-skin-tone-study-reveals

Europeans had dark-brown skin until around 5,000 years ago. Combination of recent changes to diet, vitamin D synthesis, and less sunlight region explains the change:
https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/how-europeans-white-skin-changed-over-time-according-to-a-study-pale-skin-only-became-widespread-in-the-area-8000-years-ago

I'll add that the genes for skin, hair and eye color existed in Africans who settled in Europe 40,000 years earlier. And there are Africans with light-skin, blond hair and/or blue eyes, also.

[–] [deleted] a year ago

Interesting. So those attributes like skin color can evolve fairly quickly

[–] Keelai (34858) a year ago

Not quickly:

"The lighter complexion happened gradually, over between 3,000 and 5,000 years, the scientists estimate. Some of the black population left, although there are still traces of the hunter-gatherers in the DNA of today’s Dutch, Amkreutz said. The light skin color likely came as an adaption to the low-vitamin D, grain-rich diet that stems from agriculture. Lighter skin lets more sun through, resulting in more vitamin D."
https://nltimes.nl/2023/03/02/earliest-dutch-dark-skinned-lighter-eyes-dna-research

[–] TimeTunnel (4769) a year ago

There was another discussion in context with the claim that Beethoven was allegedly black.
https://moviechat.org/nm0002727/Ludwig-van-Beethoven/6515431d07f68f682eb6ffee/Beethoven-was-black

I said there and repeat it here:
A reconstruction of the Cheddar Man (dark-skinned, blue or green eyes):
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/a15bc2fe613c998ee092c24ee0ee795d00a69645/215_211_2500_1500/master/2500.jpg?width=620&dpr=2&s=none

Sorry, he doesn't look 'Nubian' to me. but I'm not an anthropologist.
And also in the Guardian article:
"Today, about 10% of white British ancestry can be linked to this ancient population."
What's about the 90% others of white British ancestry?

What I'm trying to say is, that we always have to be very careful with our conclusions based on a few finds or - as with the Cheddar Man - based on one find.
These are amazing analyses!
And certainly we need to think and discuss, what it means.
But to conclude from Cheddar Man's analyses that all Britons were dark-skinned during his time is a bit of a stretch for me at this point.

[–] Keelai (34858) a year ago

"stretch for me"

It's based on science. Not personal opinion. Nor low self-esteem. Nor personal bias or prejudices.

"he doesn't look 'Nubian' to me"

You have a narrow and stereotyped view about what black people should look like. It reminds me of Hitler's narrow view about what "Aryans" should look like - light-complexioned, blonde, blue-eyed. Black people are as physically diverse as Asians, Europeans, Pacific Islanders and Indigenous Americans.

[–] TimeTunnel (4769) a year ago

Ok, if you draw the usual Hitler-Aryans-Nazi card,
then my first correction for you:
These people aren't "black" they're brown!

So, I'll give it to you that we had a bumpy start with each other at The Walking Dead-Daryl Dixon board. Though I dare to remind you that you insulted me first and repeatedly called me a "liar" (in English and French). ☻
In the meantime I've read the ugly discussion about the Vikings, where I wasn't involved. But I saw how you got encircled, constantly offended and belittled.
Therefore I understand that you're somewhat thin-skinned.
You may understand that I don't eat that Nazi-shit anymore, because being a German doesn't make me automatically a Nazi and Hitler is dead for nearly 80 years. The Nazi era is over.

That said, I need to ask you if you're able to continue a cultivated discussion?

In the hope that you can answer my question with "Yes", I just point to one of my reasons that I said it's a bit a stretch for me that ALL Britons had been dark-skinned:
"Today, about 10% of white British ancestry can be linked to this ancient population."
(that of the Cheddar Man)

[–] Keelai (34858) a year ago

The articles said they had dark-brown skin and light eyes. YOU brought up "Nubians" - not me.

"These people aren't "black" they're brown!"
And white people are light pinkish. What's your point?

The OP topic is about dark brown-skinned Scottish people = the norm 4,000 years ago. I expanded their subject by stating that was normal throughout Europe in that era. What's happening now is irrelevant since we know mutation eventually lead to a lighter skin tone.

"Sorry, for certain reasons I don't completely trust your summary."
re: Walking Dead. You attacked me first by calling me a liar. I treat people the way they treat me or others.

"repeatedly called me a "liar" (in English and French)."
I don't believe you really know French and will read the comments en francais like you said.

"that we had a bumpy start with each other"
Not really. Every post is a new one in my book. I don't hold grudges on this board.

"you're somewhat thin-skinned."
Not at all. Comments including insults make me laugh.

"about the Vikings"
White supremacists NEED to believe that they were white, blond with blue-eyes. It's my pleasure to make them cry by revealing the truth about their diversity. I don't get upset about truth. I find it interesting. Good article:
"White Supremacists Have Weaponized an Imaginary Viking Past. It's Time to Reclaim the Real History"
https://time.com/5569399/viking-history-white-nationalists/

Not all white people look "Aryan". Not all black people look "Nubian". Don't stereotype! That's my point.

"The Nazi era is over."
Sadly no. Neo-Nazism and Fascism are not over and have had a resurgence.

"being a German doesn't make me automatically a Nazi "
We both agree!!!

"continue a cultivated discussion"
Of course!

"it's a bit a stretch for me that ALL Britons had been dark-skinned:"
Cheddar Man is 10,000 years old! ALL Britons were dark-skinned 10,000 years ago. Light-skin didn't exist at all until later. Dark-brown Europeans weren't limited to Britons.

"Today, about 10% of white British ancestry can be linked to this ancient population."
That doesn't matter. ALL Europeans were dark-brown 10,000 years ago.

[–] TimeTunnel (4769) a year ago

Ok, Keelai...just to pick up one of your several statements:
"You attacked me first by calling me a liar. I treat people the way they treat me or others."

No, and NOW I call you a fucking liar!...get it.
And since you're not able or not willed to discuss in a cultivated way,
I won't waste my time with you.

Happy weekend! 👋

[–] Keelai (34858) a year ago

YOU'RE A LIAR for your fake "continue a cultivated discussion" plea!

YOU'RE A LIAR for ignoring your initial attack against me!

YOU'RE A LIAR for your unwarranted hostile attack!

YOU'RE A LIAR for being a sore loser!

YOU'RE A LIAR for pretending to know French!

YOU'RE A LIAR for your fake "Happy weekend!"

YOU'RE IGNORANT for not understanding the basic concept that white people didn't exist 10,000 years ago.

T'es encore un plouc!

[–] Keelai (34858) a year ago

This explanation makes sense since lighter skin only happened in Europe after living there for tens of thousands of years:

""The lighter complexion happened gradually, over between 3,000 and 5,000 years, the scientists estimate. Some of the black population left, although there are still traces of the hunter-gatherers in the DNA of today’s Dutch, Amkreutz said. The light skin color likely came as an adaption to the low-vitamin D, grain-rich diet that stems from agriculture. Lighter skin lets more sun through, resulting in more vitamin D."
https://nltimes.nl/2023/03/02/earliest-dutch-dark-skinned-lighter-eyes-dna-research";

[–] [deleted] a year ago

I think 3-5 thousand years is fairly quick in terms of evolution, but I'm not going to argue over semantics - what qualifies as "quickly". Of course, at one time humans living in Europe would have been a lot darker skinned, but I thought you would have had to go back further. Outdated information, I guess.

I would think it must be closer to 3000 years because 5000 years after that one dark skinned corpse was found in the ice would put you pretty close to modern times!

[–] Rorikon (17855) a year ago

We were all black once, hence why White was once Black but adapted to the climate and got tanned White. Why do you think when Blacks have those skin peel condition they become White?

[–] Satan2016 (25525) a year ago

What a load of bullshit junk science. Here is the original article. https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42939192

Britons did NOT migrate from Africa. They came from Europe which was only populated for 20,000 years, the ice free period.
Africans migrated to Arabia long before 40,000 years ago. They stayed near the Mediterranean first migrating east before heading north.
Scientists simply don't know how genes affect these things because they are missing thousands of generations of DNA samples!

[–] [deleted] a year ago

Actually, black africans could have been light skinned people but they evolved to have dark skin.