What Are Any of the Two Main Political Parties Doing for Black Men? - Politics Discussion

[–] B1cKsurN (17833) 2 years ago

Sweet Bait-Post.

Good luck!

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Great minds discuss ideas.
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.

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[–] xanthas (3215) 2 years ago

Van Jones is nothing more than a reactionary.

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

LOL!

A 'reactionary' because he's a *Black* liberal who's daring to call out an overprivileged white Hillary supporter who threatened to call the cops on a Black man who was quite reasonably advising her about the regulations concerning leashing dogs?

Seriously?!?

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[–] legnadibrom (6520) 2 years ago

you share the first name with the most infamous sexual predator of the last 20 years,
i suggest you change it

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

Look, you obviously don't know anything about intelligence work, lady. It's an X-K-Red-27 technique.

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[–] legnadibrom (6520) 2 years ago

when i look at you, i don't see the face of God, i see the face of a disgruntled postal worker

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

You know your problem? You don't like winners.

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[–] Keelai (36157) 2 years ago

Democratic Party is protecting Black people from the racist Republicans who are banning Black books and Black history lessons in schools, playing host to white supremacists at Maralago, fixing the racist criminal justice system, defending Black lives from lax gun laws which accelerate gun deaths, not legitimizing white supremacists by saying they're good people, not attacking POC elected officials and telling them to leave the country, not calling cities and countries where POC live as shitholes, defending Blacks from racist whites on social media including MC.

The racist Republicans also fight against critical race theory which addresses and provides a solution to systemic racism!

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

Most of these points are about how bad the GOP is. Not how good the DNC actually is.

Once again, too many of you privileged white liberals seem less interested in helping the genuinely oppressed, and more about polishing your own lapels and signalling your (privileged rich white) virtue.

Sorry if I'm more for the oppressed than I am for the smug rich elitists who only pretend to care to make themselves look good. FUCK those people. 😠 And FUCK the party of slavery and the KKK.

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

"Worship me. Thank me. We have given so much to you people."

FUCK this patronising, smug, narcissistic, ENTITLED *WHITE SAVIOUR* bullshit.

It's time the American people woke up and realised that the two-party system isn't working.

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[–] Keelai (36157) 2 years ago

90% of Black people belong to the Democratic Party because they do plenty to help unlike the hateful Republican Party.

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

With all due respect, I think you're missing my point.

I DETEST the GOP. I am definitely not singing their praises, and between them and the DNC I'd ALWAYS favour the latter. Pretty much since any point since, say 1964 (circa the Civil Rights Act and the collapse of the Dixiecrats), I'd always favour a Democratic candidate over a Republican one, and, as far as non-Southern states go, that would apply to most years during the 20th century (irrespective of the DNC's shameful pre-20th century history).

But whilst I would always advise people to vote Democrat over Republican, my point is, neither party is doing much for Black people, among various marginalised and struggling groups. The DNC is only 'good' in comparison to the alternative, and that's only because the US electoral system is a binary one that doesn't permit candidates who don't fit into the GOP or DNC mould, and that can't be right for democracy.

So, yeah, I supported Hillary in 2016, and I celebrated Biden winning in 2020 (especially in view of who the opposing candidate was), but I still believe the US can do better than either the GOP *or* the DNC.

In a straight election, yes, we have to big-up the DNC, but outside of Presidential Elections and Midterms, can't we be more honest, and stop speaking in such limiting, binary terms? It's almost as if the DNC is a cult that can't let people think for themselves, but as a member of a political party (the UK Labour Party, which is effectively the UK equivalent of the DNC), and potential candidate for that party, I still think we should ALWAYS put people, and solutions to their problems, AHEAD OF partisan/tribalist simping for *parties*.

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[–] Keelai (36157) 2 years ago

If you don't believe the Democrats are doing anything for regular folks, then you're not paying attention. The reality is what helps black people, helps all people.

There is a huge difference on the local level between red and blue-controlled areas re: healthcare, libraries, elections, gun laws and public services. For instance, DeSantis arrests people (mainly black) for voting to dissuade Democrats while in blue areas ALL people are encouraged to vote with mail-in voting, early voting and numerous voting sites for shorter lines. Red areas ban books, close libraries and threaten to arrest teachers while education and learning are encouraged in blue areas.

But, local power isn't enough since certain laws and policies need to be federal. Republicans prevent progress from being made in the U.S. for the majority of Americans which includes black people.

Without Republican interference, we would have national healthcare, a woman's right to safe abortions, less gun violence with stronger gun laws, stronger EPA laws, fair and equal election laws, the Electoral College gone, better schools, lower taxes for regular folks and higher taxes for the rich, no Citizens United decision, hundreds of thousands fewer people would've died during Covid, etc.. The Republican Party under Nixon and Reagan policies created mass incarceration to neutralize the Civil Rights Movement. Read "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness" by Alexander.

Furthermore, the Republican Party has allowed its party to descend into extremism by attacking mainstream politicians like Cheney.

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

Once again, I'm not a fan of the GOP, but neither am I a fan for shilling for a party supported and vocally backed by the media, entertainment industry, tech industry, banking sector, and other social elites.

Time for a left-wing populism that says NO to the super-rich and privileged.

NO Hollywood actor, producer, TV executive, banker, or tech entrepreneur, can possibly have the same interests as me, neither can a fucking sex-offender like Bill Clinton, or someone who describes Black men as 'super-predators'. FUCK those people, and FUCK anyone who shills for them. The more you try to convince me that these are 'good people' the more you piss me off and cause me to push back (what exactly is your objective here, or are you one of those dim-bulb establishment Dems, who are more interested in signalling their 'superior' virtue than actually convincing people to vote for them, and, you know, effect positive change? Think carefully please, and don't PATRONISE ME; that's NOT how you win arguments/win people over to YOUR way of thinking).

Also, STOP assuming that because I criticise the DNC I must somehow like the GOP. Haven't I already made it ABUNDANTLY clear that I detest the GOP?

The thing is, you seem genuinely bright, but you seem to be intelligent in the way that a conscientious middle-class 13-year-old high school kid who is studying *really* hard and doing everything their teachers tell them to get ahead is. You're book smart. But, with all due respect, you don't appear to have a mind of your own. You're just trotting out what your teachers and all the other establishment types have conditioned you to think. I know. I've been there. That was me as a kid. Then I suffered a MAJOR set-back, and my EYES opened. I finally recognised that I wasn't one of the privileged middle-class elites who could look down and patronise the poor with their 'superior virtue'. I WAS one of the poor, and the Dem/lib elites you so admire, were keeping people like ME down.😠

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[–] Keelai (36157) 2 years ago

You haven't disagreed with anything I wrote in my last post, therefore I'll assume you agree that the Democratic Party is basically helping average folks and would do more if the Republican Party wasn't hampering their efforts.

"I WAS one of the poor, and the Dem/lib elites you so admire, were keeping people like ME down.😠"

Nonsense! Whining instead of working isn't going to take you far in life. I decided at age 3 I didn't want to be poor so I went to college (only one in my family with a degree), picked a career with a decent salary and now I'm learning how to invest what I made so I can retire comfortably. You're blaming others instead of helping yourself. Ditto the Trumpites who don't understand that Trump isn't going to help them.

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

"Nonsense! Whining instead of working isn't going to take you far in life."

Spoken like a true conservative...

"I decided at age 3 I didn't want to be poor so I went to college (only one in my family with a degree), picked a career with a decent salary and now I'm learning how to invest what I made so I can retire comfortably."

'Invest'...'retire comfortably'...great...more conservative buzzwords... 🙄🤦‍♂️

If self-identifying 'Democrats' and 'liberals' aren't going to side with the poor and marginalised, we're REALLY fucked. Which is partly why I detest the DNC almost as much as I detest the GOP. At least the GOP don't *pretend* to be the 'good guys' on the side of the oppressed, unlike your sort. 😠

Why are you even a fucking Democrat to begin with? You clearly don't give a flying fuck about the poor.

Oh yeah, because the Democrats aren't and have NEVER really been about looking after the poor, any more than their GOP colleagues.

You keep talking like a conservative, don't be surprised when *genuine* leftists like myself regard you as *all* the same.

By the way, I was ALSO the first in my family to go to college (although I'm not going to make up some cock-and-bull story about recognising that I wanted to go to college when I was a fucking *toddler* 🙄🤦‍♂️). My mother is an immigrant who had 4 years of schooling, max, before she was forced to work in a sweatshop, so DON'T fucking lecture *me*.

And I worked my ass off at school, consistently getting top grades/awards for top student each term, but then the elites pushed me down because I had a mental illness. They lied about me, and exacerbated my congenital mental illness, and despite being a top student in my year, I was forced out of school.

I still managed to go to a top college and complete a law degree, with a good grade, and get a post-grad legal qualification (whilst WORKING during the week; yes, unlike a lot of YOU, I was industrious and studied AND worked at the same frickin time)...

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

...but I saw too much backstabbing, nastiness, lying, harassment and cruelty among my colleagues, among my superiors, among judges and opponent lawyers, and even among some of my clients, that I just couldn't take all the BULLSHIT anymore, and yet you have the fucking AUDACITY to accuse me of *whining*?!? WHAT THE FUCK?!?

So, because I am a good person with leftist, moral and ethical integrity who was too fucking pure for all the nastiness, harassment and backstabbing of my colleagues, opponents and even clients, *I'm* a whiner? Do you 'hear' yourself?

No, I am DEFINITELY NOT a Republican, but, guess what? Not only am I way too pure for the GOP, I'm also way too pure for the DNC, if people like you are any indicator of what they represent.

Enjoy your frickin investments and pension, you fucking NEOLIB. 😠

What ever happened to SOCIALISM? EGALITARIANISM? EQUALITY? DECENCY? INTEGRITY? ETHICS? MORALITY?

Did that all disappear as soon as Jimmy Carter lost the 1980 election?

FUCK Clinton. FUCK his legacy. FUCK what he and Blair did to the hopes and dreams of GENUINE leftists. And FUCK anyone who still swears by Bill 'Sex Offender' Clinton and Hillary 'Super-Predator' Clinton, and any other neolib/Clintonite hypocrite who truly are living up (or should I say, down?) to the party of the KKK and the Dixiecrats. 😠👊🏼

Once again, my hatred of the *modern* faux-liberal DNC is NOT an endorsement of the GOP, although at least the GOP are *openly* and *honestly* wretched. Today's DNC pretends to be better than they are (and, with all due respect, people like you talking about 'investments' are part of the problem; PS: Most investments are unethical).

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[–] Keelai (36157) 2 years ago

Your reading comprehension is low for an attorney, counselor. I wrote that I didn't want to be poor at 3 - not that I decided to go to college at that time. That came later after I decided on my career.

Both of my parents had it much worse than your mother. Your mother immigrated to the U.S. so you can remain poor? What a disappointment!

Why don't you put your law degree to work by assisting the poor in court proceedings where they are overwhelmed and confused? Volunteer in Landlord Tenant Court where the majority of tenants are pro se and risk homelessness. Or help asylum seekers or migrants with their Immigration Hearings especially if you're bilingual? Or help the elderly? Or help innocent people wrongfully in prison? Plenty of pro se litigants are desperate for legal representation.

Poverty sux. Investments are beautiful!

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

"Both of my parents had it much worse than your mother."

Really? That's doubtful. How so? Immigrants do tend to have it worse than national citizens, or is this more neoliberal faux-leftist orthodoxy? I do find that the DNC has a disturbing patriotic, even jingoistic, element to it. Once again, I expect that xenophobic, flag-waving BS from the GOP, but *NOT* from people who identify as 'liberals' and 'leftists'.

As Samuel Johnson said "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

"Why don't you put your law degree to work by assisting the poor in court proceedings where they are overwhelmed and confused? Volunteer in Landlord Tenant Court where the majority of tenants are pro se and risk homelessness. Or help asylum seekers or migrants with their Immigration Hearings especially if you're bilingual? Or help the elderly? Or help innocent people wrongfully in prison? Plenty of pro se litigants are desperate for legal representation."

How do you know I wasn't already doing that? As it happens, it was whilst doing pro bono work that I encountered the aforementioned issues. I was being taken advantage of by my clients. I was being blamed for the bad conduct of other colleagues. And so, I had enough. Unlike many of my colleagues, I didn't come from a rich enough background to put up with that shit. 😠

And, fwiw, I still do a lot of voluntary work today; just not legal. I work with the homeless, which is much less stressful and soul-destroying.

Unfortunately, my current situation doesn't pay the rent. Like you say, poverty sucks.

However, I am NOT willing to cross certain lines to avoid it, because unlike FAKE-leftists (who vote Democrat, likely for selfish or self-image-boosting reasons), I am a GENUINE PROGRESSIVE, who possesses integrity and a sense of morality, and I REFUSE to contravene my ethics.

If only my fellow 'libs' were as TRUE and GENUINE. But, do what it takes to 'win', right? That's the mantra of the 'modern' Democrat. 😠

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[–] Keelai (36157) 2 years ago

"Immigrants do tend to have it worse than national citizens"
Says who? Many become entrepreneurs and start their own businesses. Many doctors, software engineers and scientists are immigrants and they're doing fine.

You're contradicting yourself. You're complaining about poverty in America while denying they have it that bad.

"unlike FAKE-leftists (who vote Democrat"

Two-party political system in the U.S.. You're not voting for the Democrat, therefore you'll vote for Fascism aka: Trump as president, again. He hosted white supremacists at Maralago, and is inciting violence AGAIN while making racist and anti-Semitic comments.

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

My mother came to the UK with practically no formal education, like many immigrants, particularly South American immigrants, who come to the US, but, sure, there are many other immigrants, including those from East Asia, South Asia and even parts of Africa, who come to the US with the types of skills (including medical, tech and entrepreneurial) that land them very good jobs in the US, and UK. My mother, being an uneducated (albeit intelligent) woman, didn't have such luck, but, tbf, that applies to a lot of US and UK nationals too, who have been messed about by their country's divided education system.

As for your second comment, I think we both agree that given the choice in the US's two-party system it is ALWAYS vital that voters support Democratic candidates. That's been mostly the case since the mid-60s, and is especially the case today, particularly with what we saw with SCOTUS overturning Roe v Wade (and say what you want about me, but I am a staunch supporter of abortion rights/a woman's right to determine what happens with her own body).

That still doesn't change the fact that there is an out-of-touch economically conservative and elitist wing within the DNC, because, as a consequence of the GOP becoming a home for white supremacists and other crack-pots, it stands-to-reason that more rational, but no less selfish, 'moderate' conservative types will seek to monopolise the only other party in the two-party system. Hence why there are so many Democrats I feel I have NOTHING in common with, and why, in some cases, I feel I have more in common with many Republicans, in terms of my economic and cultural circumstances, even if I absolutely ABHOR their politics and beliefs.

Movie stars, CEOs, bankers, corporate lawyers, tech leaders, and other ostensibly 'liberal' elites, may mostly share my politics on LGBTQ+ rights, abortion rights, climate change, immigration, and a few other issues, but I doubt they truly my interests at heart. How could they?

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[–] Keelai (36157) 2 years ago

So you're British?
UK and US are not the same culturally, economically or politically.

Republican Party has become the Fascist Party. They're banning books written by women, BIPOC, Jews and LGBTQI. Now, they want to ban girls talking about their periods and forbid teachers educating girls about it. 1st graders forbidden to sing a song about brotherhood.

You're attacking the wrong political party. If Trump is elected in 2024, Europe will face Russia alone.

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

Unfortunately, we can't face Russia because they have the bomb. If they didn't, I'd be arguing for us sending in troops right now to defend Ukraine,

And like I say, this isn't about defending the GOP. This is about arguing that there are elements of the DNC that aren't representative of the working-class and POC. Sadly, the UK Labour Party is heading back in that direction too.

The wealthy elite, whether they're Dems or Republicans, DON'T and NEVER WILL have the best interests of the poor and POC at heart.

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[–] Keelai (36157) 2 years ago

Capitalism is about the business and investor classes. Never the poor.

You will hate Fascism. Better to support the democrats who at least believe in democracy.

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[–] warrior-poet (1369) 2 years ago

You make some good points here. My take on the situation may or may not be a bit different. "Someone" once said, "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country". But that person wasn't important or anything so screw'em.

So far all either of the two main political parties have done for black men is to enslave them with feigned compassion while using them as political pawns to suit agendas of personal gain, coddling and conditioning them so extensively that many of them have been rendered aimless with no skillset except how to hold a firearm sideways and shoot at each other in constant survival mode (to the extent that even though they comprise only 6% of the U.S. population, they commit over 50% of all homicides, mostly against each other).

Maybe it's time both political parties started incentivizing everyone - E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E - how to be better citizens and not to be so dependent on others unless absolutely necessary, to stop sowing division while grabbing for every ounce of wealth and power they can. Which no, has NOTHING to do with "whiteness" and EVERYTHING with how to treat one another regardless of skin color. You know, like the greatest civil rights leader of all time asked everyone to do. But he wasn't important either so screw him too!

In fact, the wisdom both historical figures tried to impart was so unimportant that they were both assassinated, so we should do the opposite of anything they ever fought for! Counterpoint: we should be doing EXACTLY what JFK and MLK taught us.

The solution is two-fold. 1) The government needs to stop handing out and start handing up. 2) The citizenry need to stop holding their hands out expecting charity and start holding their hands out to pull each other up. Somewhere along the way this bit of fundamental wisdom crucial to sustaining a functional society has gotten lost, corrupted by an ever-spreading infection of self-interest. Extricating from this escalating situation grows more difficult with each passing day since both of those components feed off each other, creating a feedback loop that's been snowballing for decades into the mess we have now. A blend of ideologies is the only way forward.
_________________________________________
Never believe. Always question. Rebuke belief, a.k.a. bias, a.k.a. groupthink, a.k.a. ideology, the bane of skeptical, logical reason.

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

Thank you for your respectful and intelligent response.

I must be clear that I personally support strong welfare packages, particularly as means of providing a safety net for various people. However, I also know that many people want to do more with their lives, and many feel that a simplistic reliance on welfare over programs and resources that will help them get back into work/into jobs that *pay*, is holding them back (which is not an argument against welfare, but an argument against relying on welfare/assuming more doesn't have to be done to support and incentivise people into sustainable work). In other words, I think many marginalised communities, including Black men, are frankly being patronised.

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[–] warrior-poet (1369) 2 years ago

You're welcome. And I agree. They're being treated like dirt, but with a fake wink and smile.

To clarify if it wasn't clear, I'm not against some form of "welfare". There must be a safety net to help those who have periods of misfortune if we want to help keep the bottom from dropping out for segments of society. I just think there's better ways of assisting than merely handing out bribes in exchange for loyalty (e.g. putting caring, willing people out there to guide, teach and motivate, recruiting who they help to then pay it forward), especially as you state since it's done in a patronizing manner. The programs have evolved into something that don't actually help, but instead trap people in a cycle of dependency that are highly politicized.

As I see it, and I don't think I'm mistaken in this assessment, many establishment elites on the Left (if they can truly be called leftist anymore) use the situation for personal gain and couldn't care less about the people they purport to want to help. But they don't want to actually solve the problem because perpetuation of the problem is what keeps them in business, so to speak. Many leftist ideologues who actually do care have been hoodwinked by power-hungry pretenders because they don't question their motivations. The situation on the Right isn't any better. The only real difference between the two, in fact, is which facade they present.
_________________________________________
Never believe. Always question. Rebuke belief, a.k.a. bias, a.k.a. groupthink, a.k.a. ideology, the bane of skeptical, logical reason.

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[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) 2 years ago

To be clear, I despise the right, and I think there are a lot of mostly decent people on the left, which is where I associate myself, BUT there are also a lot of patronising, pompous, smug people on the 'left' who, as you say, almost expect a certain blind allegiance from various communities, which strikes me as almost akin to a form of slavery.

Of course, welfare programs need to exist in order to support people at rock bottom, and fwiw, I don't personally begrudge 'lazy' people who live off of welfare, because the truth is, the amounts they are living on are so little, I don't see how anyone *can* begrudge them. However, I also think there are many people on welfare who'd like to get out of the hole they're forced into, and aren't getting the genuine support and guidance they need. There's almost a snobbish elitism among certain circles that says that POC and working-class whites should be grateful to be handed welfare, whilst the middle and upper-classes make *real* money, as corporate execs, lawyers, journalists, academics, senior doctors, engineers and architects etc.

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[–] warrior-poet (1369) 2 years ago

I would suggest instead of despising the Right to try to understand where many of them are coming from (not the charlatan politicians, nor extremists, which both sides have, but the majority of everyman people). You might find that you agree with them more often than not and have a lot more in common than you realized. An openminded, blended approach is the only way we'll ever repair the damage that's been done. This forum is a microcosmic example of the rift on steroids.

It's best to both not pick a side, and to pick both sides. That's not the contradiction it seems.

And those on the Right need to do the same. Everyone needs to get out of their corners and rewind to a time before the divisiveness exploded to such an extreme level, or better yet move forward into something new and better. Blending Eastern and Western philosophy, Left and Right ideology, iron and carbon, etc. is always stronger, more effective and robust.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5dRFj_6W5U

Well-said with that last paragraph.
_________________________________________
Never believe. Always question. Rebuke belief, a.k.a. bias, a.k.a. groupthink, a.k.a. ideology, the bane of skeptical, logical reason.

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