Ahmaud Arbery Case Discussion. Should the McMichaels and Mr. Bryan be found GUILTY? - Politics Discussion

[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

This is a new article with an update on the trial and a five minute video. I still don't think they should be convicted of murder since Arbery tried to grab the gun. I think they were justified to try to talk to Arbery since the construction site owner had passed out fliers and shared video of Arbery's multiple unauthorized visits to his construction site. I'm concerned that their efforts might be considered a kidnapping attempt instead of a citizen's arrest. Arbery could have stopped to explain to the McMichaels why he had been trespassing in the construction site but he kept running until he decided to fight. I suspect he was looking for valuable stuff to steal like copper pipes, tools, etc.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10191555/Ahmaud-Arbery-trial-Jury-watches-deposition-homeowner-semi.html

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[–] Ranb (9633) 3 years ago

So if a man chases after you with a gun, you will claim to forfeit your right to self defense just because you're the one being chased?

Anyone can talk to anyone else. You're not allowed to gun them down after chasing them and then brandishing a shotgun at them.

Arbury would have been a fool to stop and talk to anyone who was not law enforcement that night, especially the ones chasing him in a truck while armed. I don't think you are actually that stupid.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

They didn't point the gun at him. They were trying to talk to him and ask him why he went inside the construction site FIVE times. He's obviously casing the joint. There were also a lot of car break-ins in the neighborhood but they didn't report them.

I was accosted in my neighborhood when I walked around with a clipboard identifying homes with certain improvements when I was battling my HOA. The guy asked me why I was walking around with a clipboard and I had to explain to him that I lived in the neighborhood. Watch the video below and you'll understand why nobody would want that creep in their neighborhood.

https://youtu.be/1v7o_6uI9R0 *** Arbery interaction with police ***

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[–] Ranb (9633) 3 years ago

So you were accosted after a lengthy car chase while you were on foot trying to avoid armed people?

The facts are that the McMichaels did not witness Arbury committing any crimes that night so they had no legal reason to chase him down. Arbury had every right in the world to attack a man who brandished a shotgun after chasing him in a vehicle.

Not wanting a creep in the area is not a moral or legal reason to do what the McMichaels did.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

Nope. I didn't run. I stopped, said hello and politely explained to the gentleman why I was in the neighborhood.

Arbery was trespassing again when he noticed the one neighbor called the cops on him so he hauled ass to get out of there. The McMichaels saw him running and they called the cops too. I would argue that the McMichaels had a right to question Arbery on why he had trespassed FIVE times in the construction site next door to their house.

I don't think Arbery had the right to attack a man who was trying to ask him why he was trespassing in his neighborhood on five separate occasions. Arbery should have stopped running and talked to the McMichaels and waited for the police to arrive on the scene.

I also contend that keeping a creep out of the neighborhood justifies the McMichaels intention of finding out why the creep is in the neighborhood. There were a lot of car break-ins in the neighborhood and Arbery might have been looking over the cars on the street from the house.

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[–] Ranb (9633) 3 years ago

If you don't think Arbury had the right to attack an armed man who chased him on the road with a vehicle, then you should be able to show a link to the GA law that says this. If not, then you're just assuming anyone reading your crap is an idiot.

No one should be stupid enough to trust any armed person who is chasing them down the road. Why should we believe your claim that Arbury is that stupid?

It like you're trying to convince us that the McMichaels were actually Mother Teresa and not murdering SOBs.

If the McMichaels had evidence that Arbury was doing something so bad they needed to chase him, then why were they not talking to the police days before they decided to kill him? I'll tell you why. They probably wanted to kill a black man, make video of it and enjoy watching it for the rest of their lives.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

I contend that neighbors should be able to ask a person why they are loitering in their neighborhood. In this case, Arbery was trespassing in the house on multiple occasions and the owner didn't want the guy trespassing on his home that was under construction. The owner passed out fliers and videos in the
neighborhood trying to get neighbors to be on the lookout for Arbery based on his FIVE visits to the construction site. There were also more thefts in the neighborhood and the neighbors suspected Arbery's involvement. This is an internet message board for laypeople so I don't have to post legal citations
for every position. I would never assume that people reading my posts are idiots.

I would certainly stop to talk to someone with a gun BUT I might consider running if somebody pointed the gun at me. I would probably have my hands up since a person can't outrun a bullet.

Gregory McMichael is a retired cop so I would consider him to be a pillar of society. Travis McMichael was a law enforcement officer with the Coast Guard for nine years so he also provided great service to the public. I respect the cops and believe that they maintain law and order. Arbery was only 25 and already had numerous brushes with the law.

Travis McMichael called the police on Arbery on February 11th after seeing him at the construction site and thought that Arbery was armed. McMichael and Diego both saw Arbery in the construction site on that day before he ran away. On December 20th, officer Robert Rash told the construction site owner via text to contact Greg McMichael if he had any activity on his construction site cameras.

The family lawyer made the mistake of giving the video to a radio show host and the radio show host released it and it went viral. Mr. Bryan took the video so I don't even know if the McMichaels were aware of the recording. I think most people presently make videos to protect themselves or potentially seek legal damage.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

My previous post was too long to include these links. They provide details of the attempts by the neighborhood to get the police to identify Arbery after he was caught on the construction site security cameras FIVE times. The AJC article provides a comprehensive view of the case.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/us/ahmaud-arbery-killing-trial-day-4/index.html *** Phone calls to police ***

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/satilla-shores-break-ins-reported-months-before-ahmaud-arberys-killing *** neighborhood break-ins ***

https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/records-show-neighborhood-edge-before-arbery-final-jog/P9shmCoRGj90XFWbKfApmJ/ *** Comprehensive story ***

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[–] Ranb (9633) 3 years ago

What in these videos, makes it okay, to run down and kill a non-violent jogger?

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[–] Ranb (9633) 3 years ago

The three men are on trial for murder, not talking. Surely you understand the difference.

Arbury ran and ran and ran. when he could not anymore, he defended himself against a man branding a shotgun near him.

Pillars of society do not chase non-violent people down with a truck then blow them away.

He didn't think Arbury was armed unless he actually saw a weapon. What he actually did was imagine Arbury was armed. That is a huge difference.

The three men are stupid for recording their crime and showing it to others. The phrase, "the stupid shall be punished" seems to be tailor made for these violent fools.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

We'll never agree on this case but it was good to exchange some ideas.

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[–] legnadibrom (6233) 3 years ago

live like a thug, die like a thug

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

I agree. The youtube video shows his true nature. I'm watching Travis McMichael's testimony right now and he seems like a good citizen who was just trying to protect his neighborhood. He quickly realized that Arbery was not right so he decided to park in a central location to wait for the police and then Arbery was running towards that location. Arbery could have run away but he chose to fight. Arbery was even trying to unlock Bryan's door at one point.

https://youtu.be/1v7o_6uI9R0

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[–] immattj (4042) 3 years ago

If the McMichaels and Bryan had that senile sounding judge presiding over Crybaby Kyle's trial, they would have it made.

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[–] Lord Rake (4456) 3 years ago

Arbery's past history should all be allowed, when looking at what he'd previously done we know why he was at the house under construction and why he was inclined to take off. He was also not jogging, that fcking narrative is retarded shit.

I would understand if he ran away and they shot him, but he charges right towards the guy and grabs his gun. Tough decision, if they don't have the guns he kicks their asses or keeps running, I assume they also believe he might be armed.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

I get mad when some of these trials don't allow prior criminal offenses into consideration since some people are just bad and will continue to act out until they are locked up for life. The article below states that he would jog everywhere and he was caught stealing, trespassing, etc. He seemed like a troublemaker in the youtube video I posted earlier.

https://www.independentsentinel.com/new-evidence-in-ahmaud-arbery-case-he-was-a-thief-pretending-to-be-a-jogger/

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[–] Ranb (9633) 3 years ago

What would you do if armed men chased you and eventually caught up? Defend yourself or be their bitch? What other options do you think you would have?

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[–] Lord Rake (4456) 3 years ago

Charging a man with a gun and punching him then grabbing the gun is a great strategy.

Lets say I haven't done anything illegal, and I am just walking around on a sunny day in the middle of a suburban neighborhood and two men pull in front of me and they both have guns that are not pointed at me. I'd ask them what they were doing, if I was in the ghetto and it happened I'd run.

If I had done something illegal like Ahmaud and was on probation like he was, I would keep running and not charge the man with the gun. Or if it looked like I absolutely could not get away I'd try to talk my way out or wait for the cops.

I understand you think every white neighborhood is infested with white supremacists and the kkk, but for those of us who live there "black and white" we know the neighborhoods are the safest in the world.

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[–] Ranb (9633) 3 years ago

So what? You changed the scenario to armed men coming up to you instead of chasing you. Do you see how that is different?

An area does not have to be infested with klan for a person to find themselves threatened by murderous racists. Arbury found that out.

The thing is, the McMichaels would not be on trial if they decided to behave like decent human being. Instead they decided to chase a man down on the street then blow him away when he justly tried to defend himself.

It is not legal to kill a person just because you think they did something wrong and they don't kiss your ass after your chase them on the street. Just about everyone on the planet understands this, why don't you?

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[–] immattj (4042) 3 years ago

The McMichaels and Bryan is going for a hung jury.
That's their best chance.
They may get it . . . it is Ga after all.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

I don't think twelve people would ever agree to let them off the hook so a hung jury is their only hope. The false imprisonment charges might apply here but I thought they were justified in trying to find out why he was trespassing.

I think most rational people would have stopped and explained why they were in the neighborhood but Arbery kept running until he went for the gun.

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[–] immattj (4042) 3 years ago

Whatever. I don't jog anymore, but assuming I did & was out for a jog (or more likely, out for a walk) & some rednecks in a pickup wanted to stop me to ask me what I was doing, I'd tell them to go pound salt. I have a feeling that if most on this board were honest, they would react the same way.

Everybody thinks that The Constitution is great, don't they? That is until it doesn't agree with what you think is right & holy.

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[–] Ranb (9633) 3 years ago

It is one thing to chase someone for thinking they were trespassing on private property, it is quite another to hit them with a vehicle then shoot them with a shotgun while they are trying to evade or defend themselves.

It is was not illegal for Arbury to run away from armed people chasing him in a pickup; it was entirely sensible for Arbury to do so. It would have been stupid to just let those three men detain him for any reason.

Just because the McMichaels thought they were legally allowed to arrest a person for some crime they did not witness (there is no GA law that says they can) does not mean they were actually allowed to do so. Since there was no felony crime committed (until the McMichaels chased and killed Arbury), they had no to attempt to arrest Arbury. Since they did not witness any crime that day (other than their own) they did not have any reason to attempt to arrest Arbury.

Why is no one stating the obvious that Arbury also had a right to defend himself against armed men who were chasing after him?

I think the plan that day was to chase down Arbury then get his murder on video so they could brag about it.

joej2923, if you're going to claim that these men had a right to arrest anyone that day, show us the law as it existed back then to prove that you know what you're talking about.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

I still contend that Arbery was going for McMichael's gun so he had to shoot him in self-defense. The only question is whether the McMichaels provoked the attack by Arbery. They were chasing him in trucks through the neighborhood and they had called the police per the links below. Another link below shows that the neighbor across the street had called the police on Arbery that day. The whole neighborhood knew about Arbery since he was a regular at the construction site. Arbery could have still have kept running but he decided to fight. The McMichaels might have provoked that reaction but I still think Arbery could have stopped to talk with them and sort things out with the police.

I still think the neighbors had a right to ask Arbery what he was doing in the construction site but they did not witness a felony that would allow them to make a citizen's arrest. That's why they might be in trouble with false imprisonment and assault for the vehicle chase. They might still be allowed to chase him and find out why he was trespassing in the construction site but that also might be considered provocation.

https://www.npr.org/2021/10/26/1048398618/what-is-the-citizens-arrest-law-in-the-trial-over-ahmaud-arberys-death

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/11/10/ahmaud-arbery-witness-called-police-murder-trial/6368046001/

The link below shows that the McMichaels called 911 when they started chasing Arbery. I believe they wanted to detain Arbery and get a cop to show up to find out his identity and why he was trespassing on the construction site. I don't think the McMichaels would have called the cops if they planned to murder Arbery.

https://www.gpb.org/news/2020/05/08/listen-911-dispatcher-doesnt-understand-what-arbery-doing-wrong

I have changed my mind since my original post since I now think the false imprisonment and assault charges might stick somehow but I still they will avoid the murder charges. A hung jury still seems likely.

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[–] Ranb (9633) 3 years ago

Of course Arbury was gong for the gun. What does any sane person do after they have been chased down by armed men? You defend yourself. How is it that you don't understand that Arbury had every right to defend himself against those armed men who chased him down?

How do you know Arbury was able to keep on running away?

Exactly how would you "sort things out" in the presence of anyone who chased you down in a truck and is armed with a shotgun and willing to kill you?

Really? It was obvious to the most casual observer that the police were unwilling to do anything at all about the McMichaels killing Arbury even after the snuff video was published online. It seems that the McMichaels just damn well knew they would not get in trouble for murdering a black man and bragging about it by making a video of it. It was police other than the locals who decided that this death was worth investigating.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

I would argue that a sane man would either keep running or put his hands up. Going for someone's shotgun is STUPID/INSANE since a shooter has a low percentage chance of missing with a shotgun.

Arbery was 25 so he could keep running for hours. The article below notes that Arbery has been accused of being a jogger who runs between crime sites. I couldn't find much evidence online about his criminal history but I know he was on probation for multiple incidents.

https://www.independentsentinel.com/new-evidence-in-ahmaud-arbery-case-he-was-a-thief-pretending-to-be-a-jogger/

A trespasser should put their hands up and say don't shoot. They would sort things out by waiting for the cop to arrive and the McMichaels, Mr. Bryan and Mr. Arbery would talk things over with the cops. They had been looking for Mr. Arbery for several months and the cops knew about the trespasser in the construction site.

I thought the locals decided that there wasn't a case due to Arbery going for the gun. I remember the McMichaels' lawyer leaked the video since he thought it would absolve them of any wrongdoing. I felt that the video absolved them of murder but I'm not sure about the lesser charges of attempted kidnapping and assault.

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[–] Ranb (9633) 3 years ago

Yes, you can argue that going for the gun is stupid. Would you say the same thing if you were put in the exact same situation as Arbury?

So the ability to run for hours depends upon if you are aged 25 or not? This has got to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Perhaps you understand that running for hours is what marathon runners do? What percentage of 25 year old men do you think can run for hours?

Are you saying that the McMichaels knew Arbury's criminal history, so GA law made it legal to just blow him away? Is so, then this is another stupid claim.

No, the corrupt local cops decided to let the McMichaels slide on their bogus claim that they were making a legal citizen's arrest. After they were called on their BS, other law enforcement got involved and arrested them after their snuff video was posted online.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

I would never try to grab a shotgun since shotgun shells have a wide spread. I would have stopped and talked to the McMichaels and Mr. Bryan and waited for the cops to arrive on the scene.

Most guys are at their physical peak at age 25 and generally notice a physical decline at age 30. Arbery was an athletic and lean guy who ran a lot so he could certainly jog for several hours.

I never said the McMichaels could blow Arbery away BUT I do think residents of a neighborhood should be able to ask strangers why they are loitering or trespassing. Arbery was in the construction site at least FIVE times and Travis McMichael saw him on February 11th. Arbery also reached into his pocket during that encounter on Feb 11th so Travis McMichael thought he might be armed.

The AJC article below covers the initial decision to not prosecute the McMichaels and Mr. Bryan. Two district attorneys decided not to press charges but the state got involved after the video went viral. The state is charging at least one of the DA's for not charging the McMichaels so we'll see how that case develops. I initially thought there wouldn't be a case but I now think a jury might consider the kidnapping/assault charges.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/us/ahmaud-arbery-killing-trial-day-4/index.html *** Phone calls to police ***

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/satilla-shores-break-ins-reported-months-before-ahmaud-arberys-killing *** neighborhood break-ins ***

https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/records-show-neighborhood-edge-before-arbery-final-jog/P9shmCoRGj90XFWbKfApmJ/ *** Comprehensive story ***

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 3 years ago

You: https://youtu.be/1v7o_6uI9R0 *** Ahmaud was not cooperative that day ***

Also you: I would argue that a sane man would either keep running or put his hands up.

You're contradicting yourself.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

How so? I argued that it's stupid/insane to try to disarm a person with a shotgun due to the low chance of success. A shotgun has a very wide spread so the shooter is not likely to miss. It's possible the gun could jam but that's a low percentage. I still think it would be better to keep running or put your hands up if someone with a gun confronts you.

Travis McMichael testified that he was no longer chasing McMichael after he realized that Arbery was not cooperative. McMichael had gone to a central location where he could interact with the police when they arrived and Arbery ran towards him again. Bryan also got involved in the pursuit and he was filming Arbery as he ran towards the McMichaels in the truck.

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 3 years ago

You literally complained about him not cooperating and then said he should have kept running.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

I never contradicted myself. I argued that he should have kept running instead of trying to grab the gun. Again, trying to disarm someone with a weapon is STUPID/INSANE. Most people would stop and explain why they are in the neighborhood. I personally would have tried to talk my way out of the situation. Arbery could have told them that he wants to get involved in building construction and he was admiring the work. When confronted by someone who is armed, it's best to either put your hands up and talk or to run away.

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 3 years ago

I argued that he should have kept running instead of trying to grab the gun.

That's the dumbest take I've ever heard.

If armed Person A begins chasing down unarmed Person B on public property such as a road, the law shouldn't demand that Person B's only recourse is to continue running.

Person B should get some kind of right to defend themselves so they don't have to continue running for however long Person A decides to chase.

Why does the person with the gun get all the rights, while the unarmed person gets zero?

These crazy ass opinions need to stop. They're just going to lead to more madness.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

The McMichaels claim that they were not waving their guns at him while they were pursuing him. They claim that they were trying to get him to stop and talk about why he has been trespassing in the construction site. Mr. Bryan was also pursuing him in his truck and I think he tried to cut off Arbery off but he hasn't taken the stand.

The elder McMichael apparently yelled "Stop or I'll blow your head off" from the bed of the truck when Arbery was running towards their truck so that might be sufficient provocation. Arbery could have kept running but he chose to stop and fight. I would not argue self-defense if the McMichaels had shot Arbery as he was running towards or away from the truck.

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 3 years ago

He was obviously running away from the gun, not the conversation.

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[–] beancrisp (1643) 3 years ago

FACT: A thug can not legally claim self defense if their victim tries to grab the gun the thug is trying to murder him in cold blood just for kicks. Prove me wrong.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

I believe in most US states a self-defense claim would work for the gun carrier unless they previously pointed the gun at the person who was trying to grab the gun. If Travis Mcmichael pointed the gun at Arbery, that would possibly be considered provocation and that might permit Arbery to go for the gun. It's also possible that the vehicle chase was provocation but I still think that people are allowed to ask strangers why they are loitering or trespassing in their neighborhood.

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[–] Ranb (9633) 3 years ago

When will you figure out that these men are not on trial for "asking", but for killing someone?

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[–] PeaceOnEarth (0) 3 years ago

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[–] Rorikon (17872) 3 years ago

I think they should be charge. Just how they covered it up for some time just makes me think they should be charged. It's getting to the point where if you have prior criminal history it's an automatic death sentence to whatever you do from the right. I may defend Kyle Rittenhouse but I won't defend these folks.

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[–] joej2923 (3026) 3 years ago

They never covered it up. It's just that the local DA didn't think there was a case. District Attorneys all over the country make a decision about whether to pursue a case. The state has charged the former DA with obstruction since they think she should have charged the McMichaels and Mr. Bryan. Some people have argued that Rittenhouse was overcharged or shouldn't have been charged at all.

I think homeowners will be sympathetic to the McMichaels since Arbery had trespassed on FIVE occasions in the construction site but I don't know if people support chasing after thieves in their vehicles. I would still argue that the McMIchaels were not trying to kill Arbery but Arbery did try to grab the gun.

There might be some parallels between the McMichaels and Mr. Bryan chasing Arbery and the mob chasing Rittenhouse after he shot Rosenbaum. The mob clearly attacked Rittenhouse while the McMichaels and Mr. Bryan were trying to stop and detain Arbery in their neighborhood.

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[–] beancrisp (1643) 3 years ago

Yes thugs who murder people in cold blood just for kicks for pure enjoyment should be found guilty.

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