Screw Unity - Politics Discussion

[–] christomacin (4730) 4 years ago

The 2020s could well be one of the most turbulent decades in American history. More turbulent that the 1860s? I hope not, but it's a distinct possibility. We'll be lucky to survive the decade with anything remotely resembling democracy intact. We've all been boogieing down on Querelle's Inauguration Party thread, but I think we're more like the masked revelers in Poe's Masque of the Red Death... and the great bell is tolling the hour before midnight. Very appropriate actually, what with the pandemic and all.

"Masque de la Mort Rouge / Mask of the Red Death" by André Caplet
https://youtu.be/K3doecb5590

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[–] Rorikon (18396) 4 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Masque_of_the_Red_Death

Hoho, you piqued my interest on this short story. Must give it a read now.

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[–] Keelai (36167) 4 years ago

The Republican Party has become an extremist/authoritarian/QAnon party. I'm not sure that can be reformed by the few remaining moderate Republicans. The best thing to do may be for moderate Republicans to start a new party.

The Democrats are made-up of mainly centrists like Biden, Harris and voters in swing states. Progressives like AOC are still in the minority and don't hold much power.

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[–] Rorikon (18396) 4 years ago

They can't. That'll literally kill the numbers they've already lost to Trump. It'd be a wasted effort like the Green Party or Libertarian Party which barely blip on the radar for the most part during elections.

Eh, not from what I am seeing atm. Most of the stuff Biden has EO'd has been much more progressive in nature. Sure it doesn't go far as AOC/Bernie would want but it doesn't stop them from pushing further as most welcome it but at the same time want more. The stuff Bernie once called for is now the accepted norm and now Bernie has shifted even further into the progressive realm. Only thing left for them is free college and universal healthcare. Rest they more or less got from Biden.

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[–] Keelai (36167) 4 years ago

There were two functioning main parties when the Libertarian and Green Party were created. Now, there is one functioning party and some leaving or unhappy with the Republican Party. Now is the time to strike although that party appears to be made up of cowards like those who "retired" and those who stayed but cower in fear.

Which Biden EOs do you consider progressive? Democrats have normally favored the environment, human rights, consumer rights, unions and science so I don't see anything different from Democratic mainstream policy. I would like to see him get these orders passed by both Houses in order to prevent the next Republican president from EOing them out of existence.

Fox news (along with Trump, and some governors) should be held accountable. How many people believed their rhetoric about "liberating states" and then ended up dying from covid?

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[–] Rorikon (18396) 4 years ago

https://globalriskinsights.com/2020/12/why-biden-might-be-and-will-have-to-be-one-of-the-most-progressive-presidents-in-modern-us-history/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/27/no-honeymoon-progressives-call-for-biden-to-move-left

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/joe-bidens-big-bold-and-very-quiet-agenda/614878/ (read from 'he’s adopted policies that are strikingly progressive while stopping just shy of the specific formulations that might leave him vulnerable to Republican attack')

https://joebiden.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/UNITY-TASK-FORCE-RECOMMENDATIONS.pdf < - Anything Bernie suggests here that Biden has made into policy tips him further left on the scale.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/21/opinions/biden-may-seem-like-centrist-but-his-platform-is-progressive-chen/index.html

-As the incoming chairman of the powerful Senate Budget Committee, Senator Bernie Sanders will have a central role in shaping and steering the Democrats’ tax and spending plans through a Congress that they control with the slimmest of margins.

-Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to co-chair Biden-Sanders campaign climate task force

All in all, he's gone much further left than his predecessor Obama but just stopping short or at the borderline from going far left but enough to have the placebo effect of looking far-left even though a couple of policies would be considered far left as Bernie once campaigned on them ($15 minimum wage for one, fastest policy move to net zero carbon climate change stuff, debt forgiveness, etc.). If you can't recognize those or now consider it a 'norm' then Bernie has succeeded in changing/shifting the party further left than you realized.

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 4 years ago

It's not far left. It's what a democrat should be at the least. Obama campaigned on it and won pretty damn hard, but presided as a republican which is why his re-election didn't go as well. Now the centrists believe a democrat should be republican-lite. Thanks Obama.

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[–] Rorikon (18396) 4 years ago

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/coralewis/trump-era-democrats-now-agree-on-a-15-minimum-wage

2013 at most he proposed $9 as ideal, never once mentioned $15. You just proved my point that Bernie has successfully shifted the goal post of the left to further left and you consider it 'should be at least' in this case the 'new norm'. Or were you talking about something else since you never really specified what he 'campaigned on it and won pretty damn hard'.

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 4 years ago

$15 is right around where it was in the 70s if adjusted for inflation.

Biden has to go full Reaganomics to avoid the stigma of being far left. And he's still not fully on board with $15. He's just sitting back reading the majority.

There's one of two possibilities here.

Either we live in a far-left country.
Or the scope has shifted so far to the right that what was once mildly leftist now appears far left.

Both Trump and Pelosi supported universal healthcare in the 90s. Why is it now called radical socialism?

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[–] Rorikon (18396) 4 years ago

https://www.statnews.com/2016/02/05/trump-cruz-universal-health-care/
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/jul/24/erick-erickson/conservative-columnist-trump-once-backed-single-pa/

https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1341867268196560897?lang=en

While the federal minimum wage is $7.25, most states and many cities have higher minimum wages resulting in almost 90% of U.S. minimum wage workers earning more than $7.25. The effective nationwide minimum wage, the wage that the average minimum wage worker earns, is $11.80 as of May 2019. This is the highest it has been since at least 1994, the earliest year effective minimum wage data was available.

The purchasing power of the federal minimum wage peaked in 1968 at $1.60 ($12.00 in 2019 dollars). If the minimum wage in 1968 had kept up with labor's productivity growth, it would have reached $19.33 in 2017. In 2019, the Congressional Budget Office released a report which estimated that raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour would benefit 17 million workers, but also cause 1.3 million people to lose their jobs. An Ipsos survey in August, 2020 revealed that support for a raise in the federal minimum wage had grown substantially during the COVID-19 pandemic, with 72% of Americans in favor, including 62% of Republicans and 87% of Democrats.

Heh, the more you know. Meh, that was then, this is now. Views change, well, for Trump anyway. Alright, I stand corrected on that part. Thx for the history lesson. Maybe I need to re-balance my liberal content views with my conservative ones.

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 4 years ago

It's not your fault though. We all look at these issues through what's known as the Overton Window.

Looking past the Overton Window to get to the bottom of one wing's agenda requires research, and if you are not interested in that kind of change (most moderates aren't) then it's not your job to do the research. It's up to others to prove to you why change is necessary. This is why Bernie has such a hill to climb to get elected, even though he keeps proving to be correct.

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[–] Rorikon (18396) 4 years ago

My one little push back is that even if these folks supported it, it wasn't adopted in the end until now so whoever was in charge be it Obama, Clinton or whatnot didn't go with it as those policies were I guess considered more progressive leaning and probably wouldn't have won the votes they wanted or needed if not compromised upon.

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[–] Keelai (36167) 4 years ago

Those links are only opinion pieces with nothing showing Biden being anything other than a moderate Democrat who is trying to restore normalcy to the country.

The federal minimum wage hasn't been raised for 11 years which has contributed to income inequality since value is lost through inflation. 2013 is 8 years ago. $9 doesn't have the same earning power in 2021.

The U.S. can't continue to ignore global warning. We've wasted so much time already. You saw what happened when covid-19 was ignored.

I agree with ultraviolet. The democrat party has moved to the middle while the republican party has become extreme with far right policies, conspiracy theories and trying to appeal to domestic terrorists.

BTW, the republican party used to be for immigration, national health care and saving the environment.

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[–] Rorikon (18396) 4 years ago

Hmm, interesting... In any case, how are you going to get China on board or even India for that matter? Won't do much with just a part of the world shifting to net zero emissions if the rest of the world isn't doing so, especially developing nations.

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[–] Keelai (36167) 4 years ago

The U.S. is far behind China in the manufacturing of electric cars. I recall it was the U.S. which left the Paris Agreement, not India or China.

Just to be clear, you support pollution?

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[–] snepts (11123) 4 years ago

What he hell is "the placebo effect of looking far-left"?
Are you just mashing up concepts to maybe sound smart and hopefully confuse people?

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[–] Bloodworth79 (5739) 4 years ago

Nice try...but you know what side to choose...the one who waves the American flag, not burn it.

The Democrat party has been compromised by foreign enemies.
Their policies are anti American and anti morals.

Democrats support abortion over life, illegals over citizens and refugees over veterans.

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[–] Keelai (36167) 4 years ago

Four years later and you're as unhappy and miserable as ever! It sounds like your Messiah Trump didn't do much to help you!

Capitol rioters tore down the American flag and replaced it with a Trump flag!

You lost any moral authority about "life" when you supported 400,000+ Americans covid deaths in order to drink at a bar! You refused to wear mask in order to protect fellow Americans!

You lost any right to speak about law and order when you beat police officers and murdered one and drove two others to suicide!

You lost any right to call yourself a patriot when you supported Putin and his bounty on the lives of American soldiers.

Instead of blaming immigrants for your sad life, pick yourself up by the bootstraps and work hard like they do.

https://moviechat.org/bd0000082/Politics/60077fa639fe0e4cb94bce7a/This-thread-is-a-party-eighth-note-And-we-played-the-first-thing-that-came-to-our-heads-eighth-note-Just-so-happened-to-be-eighth-note-The-best-song-in-the-world-eighth-note

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 4 years ago

"Tough times "for the US but at least more popcorn fun."

What is wrong with you?

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[–] Rorikon (18396) 4 years ago

That I am entropic?

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 4 years ago

"They're going full far-right now as the left is going full far-left."

This is what drives me crazy about moderates/centrists. For repubs to be far-right, they gotta go full conspiratard and incite riots. For dems to be far-left, they gotta go from $1200 checks to $2000 that everybody agrees with. OMG THE FAR LEFT RADICALS!!! Bernie didn't win. Med4all was pushed back even further away. The false equivalence is silly.

"Tough times for the US but at least more popcorn fun."

So is that what your OP is all about? You don't believe dems are far-left, but you're playing it up so moviechat will be more entertaining to you?

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[–] sut6432 (2928) 4 years ago

For dems to be far-left, they gotta go from $1200 checks to $2000 that everybody agrees with. OMG THE FAR LEFT RADICALS!!!

Well, that...and just guessing here...maybe also the rioting, murder, beatings, burning of cities, looting, and shitting on police cars over the summer? That might also have a little bit to do with it.

You have extreme bias oozing out of your pores. 🤣

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 4 years ago

Thanks for proving my point.

To be far right, repubs have to be the originators of a lie that inspires the riot.

To be far left, dems have to believe police brutality is bad.

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[–] sut6432 (2928) 4 years ago

To be far left, dems have to believe police brutality is bad.

No, not at all. Most people think police brutality is bad. Shocked you still can’t get over your sickening hypocrisy.

To be far left...you take the death of George Floyd, and use it to murder and assault innocent people in the streets, burn down buildings, loot TV’s, and take literal shits on riot destroyed police cars. You also have to cheer on banning and censoring of speech you disagree with. You WILL NOT acknowledge this.

To be far right, you have to be an imbecile who storms and riots at the Capital building, by playing follow the leader with a man who says a lot of stupid shit. You LIVE to acknowledge this.

They are BOTH wrong...and you will not say it. You WILL NOT condemn riots over last summer, and that’s why no one gives a shit that you are condemning riots right now. You are a slave to your political party. They are lucky to have you...someone who bows to whatever they say, and will never say a word against them. Good little foot soldier.

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 4 years ago

"To be far left...you take the death of George Floyd, and use it to murder and assault innocent people in the streets, burn down buildings, loot TV’s, and take literal shits on riot destroyed police cars."

No representative did that. The majority of those who did do it sided democratic, but blaming it on dems would be like blaming the Capitol riot on Mitt Romney.

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[–] sut6432 (2928) 4 years ago

You STILL will NOT say it’s wrong! This is truly unbelievable continuing to read this.

All you have to say is the people who rioted over last summer were wrong...and you won’t do it! I’m not even talking about the protesters! I have no problem with the protesting at all. I’m talking about the rioters who killed and assaulted innocent people, burned down businesses, and looted. This is unreal your commitment to your political party! Yet in the same breath you will condemn any person who doesn’t support the complete annihilation of anyone who knows anyone who talked about anyone who stormed the Capital building. My god man. Have some dignity. 🤣😂🤣

The Capital riot was horrible, embarrassing, and was committed by horrible RIGHT WING extremists, and they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law!

Now you go!

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[–] B1cKsurN (17838) 4 years ago

Debating with a troll is the same as debating a brick wall.

A waste of time.

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[–] snepts (11123) 4 years ago

All the " rioting, murder, beatings, burning of cities, looting, and shitting on police cars over the summer."

Where do you live? Did these things actually happen in your community, or are you generalizing to bolster a weak argument?
There is not one city that is weaker because of civil unrest, and there are very few that experienced it.

So quit trying to characterize the tumult of BLM as if it's some overthrow of democracy.
It was an organic eruption of how sick we are of police disregard of under privileged citizens, with the usual bunch of apolitical idiots taking advantage and running rampant, mostly because Republican politics has alienated the poor so much, they don't care anymore to follow rules.
Hell, no one cares about them, why should they care about us?

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[–] sut6432 (2928) 4 years ago

Do I really have to send pictures and videos to show you that people were killed, beaten, and buildings were burned, and someone squatted down and took a shit on a police car?

Do I really have to that? If I thought you were worth it I would, but you seem pretty keen on denying any of it happening, or even defending it. I’m not going to waste my time.

A lot of people peacefully protested last summer, and that is fine...but there was plenty of rioting too, and people were killed, injured, their small businesses destroyed, and unbelievable amounts of damaged property. Yet you sit here and defend that behavior. Maybe if you or a family member were an innocent bystander would have gotten dragged out of your business and beaten with 2x4s while your livelihood was set on fire you would feel differently. Why do you deny that these things happened, or completely minimize them???

So just so we’re clear...last summer, you’re so sick of police violence...that you go commit crimes of violence against innocent civilians? Ok, gotcha. Nice plan to get people on your side.

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[–] Rorikon (18396) 4 years ago

Dems are moving far-left from the looks of it imo (knock on heavens door). Radical change as they say. Never said they weren't.

Chaos is entertaining to me. I don't have the power to move mountains, the politicians do and We The People that will them to do it. I am merely a bystander in all of this and watch from afar with my trusty popcorn in hand. *om nom nom nom*

No, my post is about screwing the call for unity that Biden wants and should just go full radical progressive whatever since the right are stamping down their feet on the crashed Trump train they're retrieving from the river for refurbishing. No point trying to reach for the middle or compromise now that each side has solidified their more extremist/radical positions.

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 4 years ago

What radical change is Biden going to implement? If you're so sure, you should be able to be specific about it instead of the same "it's gonna happen, just you wait" song and dance.

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[–] Querelle (1603) 4 years ago

I think that's sort of shit attitude. Things don't just change, people change things. Be one of the positive authors of our narrative, and others will follow that example. Not everyone will, but more people than if you don't do shit. Starting from a place of extreme division as an accepted fate, unchangeable and ultimate, is a dead end. I don't know why you'd even get out of bed, or come on here, if you really thought it was that bleak. Keeping unity on the table is the least I can do, and it's all I would expect of anyone. Being united is absolutely achievable, and that's why everyone is invited to the party.

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[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

So well said.

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[–] B1cKsurN (17838) 4 years ago

I dunno about that. Crying billionaires are sure healing political wounds of the plebs below them. Right and left can definitely unite against the oligarchs.

Also, stop consuming all cable news. They all collude to drive us crazy. Don't be manipulated by them!

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[–] Rorikon (18396) 4 years ago

I try to balance it out from all views else I'll end up on the conspiracy news. Everyone is manipulated by something or another, you're just left with your own opinions in the end and be either accepting of new views that may change your current views or delve deeper in your own narrative. In the end, the choice is only yours to make.

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[–] Indiscipline (778) 4 years ago

Your whole problem is that you think the Trump side is delaying any kind of unity.

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