MovieChat Forums > Dark Waters (2019) Discussion > What was the real issue here?

What was the real issue here?


This was an interesting film, and quite educational. I believe that Robert Bilott was acting with good intentions, attempting to inform the public of what goes on in the shadows with corporations that furnish our lives, figuratively and literally.

After watching this film, I think it's important to understand the issue here (arguably) is not with the end-product of Teflon. Teflon is a brand of products that is created with PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene). PTFE is essentially a plastic, and it's ubiquitous in everyday life, for better or worse (think bottled water).

PFOA or C8, as shown in the film, is the chemical and precursor used in the production of these products. By and large, these products have been demonstrated to be safe. The area of concern starts to apply when Teflon pans or bottled-water is warmed up to a certain temperature, allowing the fumes to be absorbed into the lungs. This is difficult to do, as the temperature has to be around 622F for the pan to begin degrading and releasing the fumes. When this does happen, fume fever can occur, assuming you breathe in large enough quantities, which is unlikely from only one pan.

And so what is the real issue here? The issue is around the safety of the production of these products. DuPont concealed the dangers around the production of its brand products, namely with the use of PFOA and the implications of leaking it into the water supply.

As usual, there will be a portion of people who watch this film, don't look beyond the surface level, and induce themselves into a fueled paranoia thinking everything and everyone is out to get them. I'm not saying the food we eat isn't bad for us or the air we breathe is optimal. Yes, the world is an unscrupulous and dangerous place. Yes, we live in a state of unbridled capitalism, where greed runs rampant and power corrupts.

It is impossible to make the world 100% fool-proof. In today's world, our living conditions are predicated on the production of the everyday items (sustenance, shelter, entertainment, transportation) corporations furnish us with.

Are they 100% safe? No, of course not. Nothing is 100% safe.





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The big issue is whether corporations can be trusted to comply with the law when it hurts their bottom line. Dupont knew that their PFOA chemicals were harmful and did not disclose the information to the EPA. In the seventies, Congress empowered the EPA to monitor/enforce toxic substances BUT toxic substances already produced were grandfathered in. Companies were supposed to self-report if their grandfathered toxin was found to be harmful. Dupont had data from their studies showing that the product was harmful but they did not self-report.

I am convinced that teflon is a dangerous product. Birds are known to have died when teflon pans/products are used. This
reminds me of miners who used to bring canaries into the coal mine to warn them of harmful gas. Experts say that teflon is
safe if the pan is under 570F degrees but I have never seen a pan with a temperature reading. I also suspect that the
teflon would scratch off or degrade over time and end up in one's food.

Plastic is also harmful to the environment and to the health of the populace. Many people are aware of BPA that leaches
from plastic bottles but there are other endocrine disruptors that leach from plastics. Endocrine disruptors mimic estrogen
and are absorbed by the body with harmful consequences.

There are plenty of examples of companies ignoring regulations to benefit their bottom lines. Boeing's failure to test the 737 Max and Ciba-Geigy dumping of chemicals in Toms River, NJ are two that come to mind. Also, the fracking companies refuse to disclose the ingredients in the fracking fluid that they are pumping into the groundwater.

I don't want to live in a world of unbridled capitalism; instead, I want a government to enforce rules and regulations
that are designed to protect its citizens from corporations whose profits are paramount.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/cancer/how-dupont-may-avoid-paying-clean-toxic-forever-chemical-n1138766





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Ultimately we don't know the true effects of anything. They say that Teflon released from pans beyond a certain temperature is non-reactive, so if it is consumed, then it will pass through stool and urine without being absorbed. How accurate or truthful the statement is, nobody will really know.

And because, as a public, we rely on Scientists and people with tools that can accurately assess these things, we're beholden to their information. If they say that plastic, under certain conditions, is safe, what choice do we have but to oblige? When policies are placed in action based on the results of these groups, citizens don't really have much of a say.

As for regulatory agencies? Well, I'm convinced they're likely in the pockets of these companies, much like accrediting agencies for universities are in the pockets of the same universities that promote programs with future prospects for students.

The problem at large is that morality is secondary to profiteering. It has no place in Capitalism, as the whole purpose is to accrue as much money as possible. When the accumulation of material well-being is more important than morality, then you'll have the unbridled greed that currently runs rampant. When the corporation replaces religion and its moral groundwork, and piety is a function of how many hours you've toiled for a company, then is it a surprise we see societal degradation and collapse around us?

Morality is an abstract concept--you can't pay for food with it and it doesn't make you feel as good as when you have an orgasm.

It's a shame people with no agency have to suffer because of those who hold all the power.

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We do know that certain substances are harmful but it takes too long to figure out their long-term impact. For example, both DDT and Agent Orange were banned due to their harmful effects. It's also important to know that teflon is not the only type of pfas ( per and polyfluoroalkyl substances). Pfas are found in scotchguard/gore-tex in carpets, outdoor gear and clothing. They even put it in food packaging like instant popcorn bags. Even if a person doesn't absorb all of the teflon that passes through their system, it will eventually end up in the drinking water.

https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2007/05/teflon-forever/

Citizens can effect change by voting for candidates who are not pawns of industry and by donating to organizations that work to fight pollution.

Most U.S. regulatory agencies are independent and they are supposed to be free of political influence. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau was created to protect consumers and they are being sued for being unconstitutional even though it returned $12billion to consumers. If this lawsuit against the CFPB is successful in the Supreme Court, regulatory agencies might not be independent going forward.

It's an uphill fight but I believe citizens can make progress by voting for candidates and donating to charities that will fight pollution.

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I think everyone should vote conscientiously and truly think about their actions, but the majority won't. Most aren't convinced voting even does anything. Those who do vote only vote for the prominent talking heads that can afford the mass advertising. Candidates who may be able to do anything are stepped on and their voices are seldom heard.

You're right, action is better than inaction, but people are too comfortable. Everyone is placated with their products. If a certain food causes stomach ulcers? No problem. They'll just swallow the pill to make it go away. Everything is streamlined for maximal efficiency, so people begin to eschew anything that takes a modicum of work.

Look at what's going on in the healthcare industry with rehabilitation services being cut by Medicare. Sure, Medicare can say that it's because they're running out of money and because the system was abused by greedy rehab companies, and there is an element of truth to that, but the problem digs deeper.

In reality? It's a lot easier to swallow a few pills than it is to perform manual exercises for ~60 minutes day to improve functional outcomes.

In the end, society won't care until another PFOA ends up in their community and affects them directly. Out of sight, out of mind as the saying goes.

Keep fighting the good fight.

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The only people who read Mother F'n Jones are scientifically illiterate Commies. Teflon is not absorbed AT ALL! It would not last on cookware if so.

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Teflon is a type of PFOA and it is found in several products. According to the CDC, 98% of US residents have PFOA's in their blood and it's even found in the Arctic. It is absorbed and it's everywhere. Teflon (PFOA) is not just in cookware. It's in carpets, clothing, dental floss, food wrappers and microwave popcorn bags.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/23/pfas-everyday-products-toxics-guide

A lot of household birds are killed by the fumes of overheated teflon pans so this reminds me of the miners who brought canaries into the coal mine. Birds die immediately from toxins but it might take twenty years for harmful effects to appear in humans.

https://www.ewg.org/research/pfcs-global-contaminants/teflon-and-other-non-stick-pans-kill-birds

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No, the purpose of capitalism is the allocation of resources through the price mechanism in a market/society with private property rights, free/voluntary trade, freedom of choice, freedom of association etc.

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"Plastic is also harmful to the environment and to the health of the populace."

This is exactly the chemo-phobia fake documentaries like this create. BPA was only in polycarbonate and only released by boiling water. "endocrine disruptors" are junk science. They might make frogs gay.

"I am convinced that teflon is a dangerous product."

Not according to science, which Greens reject! https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-nonstick-pans-safe/

The reason your pans don't reach 570F is because oil bursts into flames at that temperature.

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All plastic leaches chemicals over time. A big deal was made about bpa but other chemicals leach from plastics that are just as bad or worse. Your science article is only FOUR paragraphs and she even mentions in the last paragraph that PFOA (teflon) is a suspected carcinogen. The articles below are much more informative.

https://www.npr.org/2011/03/02/134196209/study-most-plastics-leach-hormone-like-chemicals

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/9/11/17614540/plastic-food-containers-contamination-health-risks

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We don't live in a state of unbridled capitalism!

You want a government that assists various special interest groups who want to dictate how you live your life?

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The EPA is a joke and has been forever. When I was in college I worked in a chemical company during summers and the company dumps crap into a ditch that led to the local river. Because the crap we used was known to be bad we had to take samples of the water in that ditch and send it into the EPA every quarter. The first time I took a sample, I handed it in to my boss. They tested it before they sent it in, and then when it wasn't clean enough they diluted it with distilled water until it was low enough ppm and sent in that sample. I'm betting that is what happens all over the place because the EPA is too lazy to go out and take sample themselves so they trust the companies that they are supposed to be overseeing.

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Corporation boot-licking, propaganda-spreading bot.

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No-nothing illiterate Troll promoting Marxism!

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Seeing your post below, seems like I nailed you. How much is Dupont paying you?

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I only found one review on Imdb debunking this fake documentary: https://www.imdb.com/review/rw5534101/?ref_=tt_urv

This movie comes off as an anti-science propaganda piece that gives the message that Teflon and chemicals in general are not safe. The only scientific claim that can be made about the safety of Teflon is that it deteriorates into possibly harmful chemicals at cooking temperatures close to 260 degree centigrade, which is almost never reached during ordinary cooking. The actual EPA investigation that happened was on perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA, or C8), which was once used as a surfactant in the manufacture of Teflon, although most manufacturers have phased out its use. This movie does a good job of generating chemophobia and fear of big corporations. The other aspects of the movie are hardly worth praising and the performances of actors are often lackluster.

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This movie is a drama so it's not supposed to be a documentary. This movie is great because it will inspire people to read more about the risks of PFAS and other chemicals. People could be living next to a factory without knowing their water is polluted. This movie also pointed out that Dupont knew about the dangers of PFAS and kept producing the product.

Citizens need to be aware of the risks of corporate dumping. Many businesses pollute the environment and the government often has to clean up their mess. There are plenty of superfund sites all over the US that are supposed to be cleaned up by the government. The Pence family gas station sites are being cleaned up by various states at great cost.

https://www.epa.gov/superfund/search-superfund-sites-where-you-live

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/396988-indiana-has-spent-over-20-million-on-cleanup-of-failed-pence-family

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He calls a movie with Mark Ruffalo a documentary. It's obvious he hasn't seen it and is just a bot hired to spread pro-teflon propaganda.

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PFAS is man made. PFAS is in the water supply now because DuPont was dumping it along with many other factors. It is very bad.

The EPA is going to change the regulations soon on how much PFAS will be allowed in drinking water because its very bad.

https://www.ewg.org/interactive-maps/pfas_contamination/

Do you want PFAS in your drinking water because its no biggie or would you prefer not to?

Teflon on pans is one thing. PFAS in your drinking water is another.

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We don't live in a state of unbridled capitalism!

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