MovieChat Forums > Cobra Kai (2018) Discussion > Illegal move?

Illegal move?

posted 7 years ago by Tracer (29)
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I know it has been debated online for years and it was brought up on the show, but how is the crane kick illegal?

Throughout the montage from the first movie, people are constantly hitting people in the face and are awarded points. Johnny says that the move was illegal and online arguments seem to suggest that hitting the face is illegal, but the rule is never mentioned in the movie and the scenes from the montage show that it is legal. If it is mentioned, where? I just watched it again and still didn't hear anything...other than Alli saying that hitting the head is legal.

I read online that in forms of karate, punching the face is illegal but kicking the face is not. This would explain the events of the movie (including Johnny not getting points for punching Daniel in the face). Therefore, the kick would be legal and Johnny would be wrong.

Any thoughts on this? (and I know I'm over analyzing this, I'm just bored)

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

In reality it's kind of ridiculous that the original tournament seemed to be under 18 bare knuckle, full contact fights. I don't think such competitions ever existed. But you're right about the montage showing people being hit in the face so in terms of the original it does seem to be legal.

Part III seems to make an attempt to retcon this a bit and the referee does say "light contact is allowed to the body and I do mean light Mr. Barnes. No face contact is allowed. Any violation of the rules will result in a penalty point."

Now assuming the no face contact rule was in effect in the original movie, in order to get a point on a head shot, the fighters would be responsible for controlling their strikes to the head to demonstrate that their opponent didn't defend against the blow, while at the same time pulling it as not to make contact. However the crane kick might still be considered legal if the referees determined that Johnny's forward motion was such that he alone and not Daniel was responsible for the contact that was made.

I'm also bored...

[–] wearsalan (5554) 7 years ago

(In reality it's kind of ridiculous that the original tournament seemed to be under 18 bare knuckle, full contact fights. I don't think such competitions ever existed.)
Actually, the tournament in the movie was a realistic depiction of Karate tournaments at the time.
( Part III seems to make an attempt to retcon this a bit and the referee does say "light contact is allowed to the body and I do mean light Mr. Barnes. No face contact is allowed. Any violation of the rules will result in a penalty point.")
No. Part 3 actually updates the contact rule which changed in 1985.
(Now assuming the no face contact rule was in effect in the original movie, in order to get a point on a head shot, the fighters would be responsible for controlling their strikes to the head to demonstrate that their opponent didn't defend against the blow, while at the same time pulling it as not to make contact. However the crane kick might still be considered legal if the referees determined that Johnny's forward motion was such that he alone and not Daniel was responsible for the contact that was made.)
Spot on.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

I remember part III referencing several tournament changes (defending champ only fights final match, penalty points, 3 minute time limit, sudden death) but I don't remember them specifically saying the rule regarding face contact had been changed. Can you clarify if you remember this from the movie or if you're basing this on educated assumptions?

[–] wearsalan (5554) 7 years ago

The referee says to the fighters before starting, 'light contact to the body, and I do mean light Mr Barnes. No contact to the face is allowed.'

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Ok I remember that. They didn't specify it as a rule change though so I was unclear as to whether it was considered a rule change or they were trying to retcon the rules as if it had always been that way. I say that because while Terry Silver is going over rule #3 of the "Quick Silver" method (a man can't see, he can't fight), he tells Daniel to wait for his opponent to attack and then punch him in the nose and they have the following dialogue:

Daniel: "But that would be face contact. I'd be disqualified."
Terry: "Well he ran into your fist, not your fault right?"

The conversation they have makes it seem like we're supposed believe that's always been the rule (even though it goes against what we clearly see in the first film).

[–] wearsalan (5554) 7 years ago

The rule about hitting the mask of the face (eyes, nose, lips) has always been in place. Accidental hitting or causing injury (ie someone running on to it or as in the first movie when Daniel strikes Johnny on the back of the head and his head hits the floor causing his nose to bleed ) was generally not deemed the fault of the fighter. The crane kick hit Johnny on the chin. To be honest, if it were uncontrolled it would have knocked him spark out. If it had hit his nose (some people suggest it did) it probably would have killed him or at least seriously injured him, controlled or not.
what does make me chuckle is the amount of people who claim it was an illegal kick because of where it struck. Remember, Pat Johnson was a real life karate exponent and qualified referee. He was the co-ordinator for the martial arts and the competition set up for this movie. The idea was to portray a real competition. The ony fantasy part was the crane kick. Although there is a similar type of kick it is actually called a flying or jumping mi-geri.

[–] howgamer (3929) 7 years ago

In this series during the tournament, people get hit in the face by fist and foot many times and are awarded points. The crane kick is even used and it is legal so I'm not sure why Johnny made notion that it was illegal.

As for what's legal in real life tournaments composed of adolescent kids, I have no idea, but I would guess that hitting someone in the face with fist or foot is probably illegal.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

I was an adolescent who took karate in the mid to late 80s and very little contact was allowed in the tournaments I competed in (I never won...but I digress) and absolutely none to the face. Also they had us wearing gloves and kick pads as an extra layer of protection. I'm sure there were variations of tournaments but full contact/bare knuckle seems like a major stretch (makes for a hell of a good montage though).

[–] howgamer (3929) 7 years ago

That's sounds much more realistic than what is portrayed. However, maybe you just needed to join Cobra Kai to enter the tournaments of no mercy!

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Like my mom would've allowed that...she never let me do anything cool!

[–] wearsalan (5554) 7 years ago

You perhaps competed after 1985. Prior to that it was pretty rough. I also competed in Karate (from 1982 onwards) and was awarded the win in one fight after breaking a guys ribs because he could no longer continue.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Correct it would have been 87 or so. That's crazy to think of under 18 tournaments like that but then again we rode bikes without helmets and never wore seat belts so it was a different time all together lol

[–] Rorikon (17855) 7 years ago

https://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/12/08/disqualify-daniel-larusso/

I found this an amusing read. Basically it could be that Daniel was trying to kick Johnny's nose as hard as possible and wasn't a controlled kick.

[–] Tracer (29) 7 years ago

This would make sense.

Punching faces would be illegal. Kicking is legal. But uncontrolled moves are illegal. The argument then is that the crane kick is uncontrolled.

So that would be Johnny's argument, not the hitting of the face (as some online postings have suggested).

I don't understand why the crane kick would be considered uncontrolled though. Yes, it is a hard kick, but it was made harder by Johnny's advance. I'll chalk it up to judgement call.

[–] howgamer (3929) 7 years ago

Johnny should have went for the leg sweep. I mean the guy was standing on one leg! Danielson should have lost, would have been all dramatic like Rocky lol

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

"I don't understand why the crane kick would be considered uncontrolled though. Yes, it is a hard kick, but it was made harder by Johnny's advance. I'll chalk it up to judgement call."

Any kick can theoretically be thrown with control. With Daniel's crane kick the argument could be made that he did control it but Johnny ran full force into it so it would've been impossible for Daniel to avoid hitting him (I was in a tournament where one ref didn't want to give me a point since I made contact with my opponent's side but the other judge argued he moved into it with his forward motion and they ended up giving me a point). Most of Daniel's offense seems to be waiting for the opponent to make a move and then striking as they attack.

Compare that with the first match we see of Johnny's in the tournament montage where he blocks and traps a punch and lands a roundhouse kick to the ribs and then swings his leg over the guys arm and delivers a roundhouse kick to the face. Aside from the second kick not being necessary since the first kick would've been a point, it was clearly done with no control since Johnny kicked him full contact in the face while the opponent was defenseless and not moving into the kick.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Also it's unclear why Bobby is disqualified for "excessive and deliberate contact" to Danielle's knee but Johnny only gets a warning when he catches Daniel's kick and delivers an elbow to Daniel's bad knee.

[–] wearsalan (5554) 7 years ago

Now that is a genuine point!

[–] Tracer (29) 7 years ago

Having just watched all three movies, the only mention of hitting the face being illegal is in part 3. So, that aspect of the argument only makes sense if taking all three movies as canon, which the show does. But that still doesn't explain why all the hits to the face are legal in the first film.

I'm guessing the best way to explain it would be that in the first film, hits to the face are legal, but all moves must be controlled. In the third movie, new rules, such as the sudden death in the finals were added... This includes no hitting of the face.

Therefore, if the crane kick is illegal, it is because it was an uncontrolled move. Hitting the face didn't become illegal until the following tournament.

Nothing is really explained well in the movies, even the shows creators said so.. It's all a matter of perspective I guess.

[–] znapper (33) 7 years ago

The kick he performed from the 'crane stance" (lol most stupid stance in the history of karate-films, apart from the ridiculous full-contact matches with teens, with no pads or protection) is a front-kick, directly to the face.

In some forms of full-contact karate, these kinds of kicks are illegal indeed, even if you are otherwise allowed to hit the head by kicking, hitting or kneeing.

I think it's because of risk of serious injury from broken nose bone being forced into the brain, because of the upward motion of this particular kick.

[–] wearsalan (5554) 7 years ago

The kick to face was not illegal in 1984. Too many people are looking at todays standards are judging this.

[–] znapper (33) 7 years ago

I am speaking generally about the karate I know (Kyokushin), to try and make sense of it.

Everything in Karate kid is illegal and it was back in 1984, since such young people were never allowed to perform bare-knuckle full contact fights at all :)

Then again, Daniel Russo (Ralph M.) was what....? 25 in 1984 :P

It's all bullshit ^^

[–] winslow (1318) 7 years ago

First rule of All Valley Karate Championship is you don't talk about All Valley Karate Championship