for the people who say you should watch this if you like spy stuff - Berlin Station (2016) Discussion

[–] merej 8 years ago

The problem is I actually quite enjoyed TTSS.

It's almost as if people have different tastes. 

After all is said and done, a lot more will have been said than done.

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[–] dave-214-436913 8 years ago

ditto

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[–] exatera 8 years ago

Sure, but for a lot of people this comparison is not going to be the ringing endorsement it is for you.

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[–] merej 8 years ago

That's where my 'different tastes' comment comes in handy - it's almost as if I haden't presented my enjoyment of TTSS as a general 'ringing endorsement' applicable to all and sundry at all. 

I like that you compared BS to TTSS because as with TTSS you got to pay attention when watching this show. Some people may enjoy doing so, some may not. To say that it isn't worth watching because you don't enjoy this kind of show is a bit OTT though.

After all is said and done, a lot more will have been said than done.

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[–] exatera 8 years ago

I like that you compared BS to TTSS because as with TTSS you got to pay attention when watching this show.

No, I made that comparison because it's boring and pointless. That movie was one of the worst wastes of time for me ever.

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[–] merej 8 years ago

Obviously I explained why I like the comparison, not why you made it.

You are of course entitled to your opinion - wrong as it. 😀

After all is said and done, a lot more will have been said than done.

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[–] macktan894 8 years ago

I like that you compared BS to TTSS because as with TTSS you got to pay attention when watching this show.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I had to watch TTSS a couple of times to fully appreciate it and to follow its complex plot, but once I invested in it, I absolutely loved it and it is one of my favorite spy movies of all times.

Berlin Station requires that same kind of commitment. It is layered with characters who, because of their occupation, are deceptive and not easy to pigeon hole. I had to watch the first two episodes twice to pick up the thread, but once you do, you the story blossoms in front of your eyes. These are people of gray morality, so you aren't given a firm footing for interpreting the characters or their deeds. I had the same kind of experience when watching A Most Wanted Man--had to focus and view it a couple of times, but it was so worth the effort.

Compare it to a spy story like Spartan or the Jason Bourne films and you'll see that they are by comparison straightforward, linear, characters clearly established up front. You'll get everything in one pass quite easily. Not so here where you have characters introduced whose role is unexplained. (Who is that woman Hector had sex with in the car and why did she later meet with Valerie and ask her for estrogen?)

I love it.

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[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Thrill_KillZ 8 years ago

(Who is that woman Hector had sex with in the car and why did she later meet with Valerie and ask her for estrogen?)

To me the only deduction that could be made by that "estrogen supply" being needed is that Clare is not or was not born a female. That Hector is banging a TS, one that I still can't 100% identify as one yet due to her scarved head concealing her neck. The fact that Valerie has a very deep voice in comparison isn't helping the situation either. Combined with the fact that it makes absolutely NO sense to have such an asset under cover as a woman working in a country and around a culture that executes men for sodomy, I'm scratching my head about it. A little "Clarefication" wouldn't hurt imo.

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[–] macktan894 8 years ago

is that Clare is not or was not born a female

That was my first impression, but I wasn't sure. Given Hector's leanings, I wouldn't be surprised if he was into a TS. But I do vaguely recognize the actress playing Clare; the actress is a woman.

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[–] dave-214-436913 8 years ago

Thx for the heads up. I should like it then. My wife won't though.

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[–] defcon79 8 years ago

Thanks. Since TTSS was fantastic, I suspect I'll like this too even though it seems very biased towards the govt.

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[–] phil97012 8 years ago

Haha.. You're right. Since both shows are amazing, hehe..

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[–] awrobel 8 years ago

You appear to be more the Superhero type viewer. Meaningless tripe is surely your fare!

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[–] exatera 8 years ago

Nice try. 

I am a movie buff, I've seen a lot of great cinema. TTSS is not it in my opinion.

Anyway, what do I care - you want to waste your time on this series, go ahead. No skin off my back.

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[–] -501 8 years ago

To me it is a lot more like Homeland.

Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy was all about working through the mystery of who the traitor is. Here, in the first episode we already know who the traitor is. So, the show is about where it goes from here and I sure don't know and neither do you. Like Homeland, the story really is about very human, very damaged agents going about pretending that somehow their actions matter (or even are helpful). In doing so, it's a dialogue about our time in the world and pushes the envelope about our engagement in it.

If you really meant that Berlin Station engages the audience thoughtfully, like Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, I agree. And I like that.

Not to worry, there are a ton of stupid shows out there. Enjoy them.

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[–] exatera 8 years ago

Homeland it what this show wishes it was like.

And if a show is dull and poorly written, then literally the last thing it is is "smart". Don't flatter yourself.

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[–] macktan894 8 years ago

[quoteTo me it is a lot more like Homeland. ][/quote]

This show is a lot better than Homeland in almost every respect. It is a more modern LeCarre.

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[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

Homeland had the potential to be great. When Carrie burst into the hotel room and outed Brody, it just spiraled down the tubes. Could you imagine the remaining second season of Homeland being Saul and Carrie feeding false information to Brody as well as following him and tracking him to eliminate the terror cells? Then at the end of season 2, Brody realizes that he is being played, and he and his controllers now use Brody to feed false info back for some of season 3, until Carrie works out that they are now being played by Brody. In the mean time, Mike is now after Brody with solid intel from another Middle-East source, but like George and Bill Hayden, no one believes him because they think it is just about getting the wife back. Great spy shows are back and forth cat and mouse, Homeland had a panic attack and failed.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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[–] itz_theo 8 years ago

TTSP was and is the real spy stuff film, atleast close to real life spying. Bad comparison.

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[–] jenniferannesmith-836-289987 8 years ago

Agreed. And George Smiley is an iconic character in the spy genre. Like it or not, TTSS stands out as something defining, just as Bond does in his way or Jason Bourne or Claire Danes in Homeland. There's such variety in espionage stories, which I love and I think is accurate. We have 17 intel agencies in the US alone, all of them with different types of stories, though probably not as exciting as they're portrayed on TV.

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[–] CobblersAwls 8 years ago

The beauty in the writing of Smiley (and Berlin Station follows this a bit) is that in the end it's not the spy story itself that's important to the narrative per se--it's the intricate personalities and conflicts within The Circus that is the real story.

The characters Le Carre draws are the gamut from despicable self promoters to old school tie empty suit chair fillers to the real fascinating characters like outsider Toby Esterhase. Le Carre takes you through the labyrinth that is the Circus's layers of human stories and conflicts and all the political b.s. that makes up the agency--so that it's a wonder they ever get any intel done!

Clearly, Olen is a Le Carre fan. The Berlin Station is made up of some of the same kinds of people that populate The Circus in Smiley's world. Also, there is the theme that there might be a traitor among them.

Olen's novels in the Yalta Boulevard series are like that too--his protagonist is a kind of Smiley character, working on the outside of a massive bureaucracy of self-serving operators and marches to his own drummer. Olen knows these types of characters very well.

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[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

OP is some millenial who thinks TTSS was just a movie and appears completely ignorant of the mini-series, you know, one of those idjits who is surprised to learn that Paul McCartney was in a band before Wings.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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[–] CobblersAwls 8 years ago

Exactly!

The problem I had with the film was that some film maker decided to entirely change the core principle of the Smiley/Karla series.

You know this if you are fan--but the cat and mouse game between Smiley and Karla was an epic long-time battle of wits and intelligence technique. Equals pitted against each other from their sides of the fence.

The two of them had that long-time relationship that stemmed from the first meeting in the prison room. And from then, it was game on!

An epic battle of equals then commenced to be conducted througout the novels.

Then, the film makers come along and decide:

Hey! Here's a cool idea since we British film and tv makers usually think every evil in our world of film and tv begins and ends with the Americans and nothing British characters ever do is actually something they own (but are only ever in response something the U.S. did first and forced their hands like "Spooks" did throughout the series), let's forget about that stupid Smiley/Karla relationship and say the U.S. pissed off Karla. Yah! Brill!

They decided, unlike the Smiley trilogy, not to "own" their own great story!

Le Carre had his share of pretty interesting U.S. characters and actions, and he clearly thought very little of them, but it always served the story and was always well done as part of the whole. Never gratuitous.

But these film makers probably said, oh hey! Let's say Karla hates the West because the Americans tortured him! Yeah! Cool. That's a fab idea!

There went the human premise the story--the whole thing. Gone.

That made the film just another routine, cliched spy story. Nothing new to see there. Move along.

It was a travesty to me. The spirit of the story and characters were altered which reduced it to a routine nonentity of a story. Good performances couldn't save it.

Not when the film had been destroyed at birth--the epic Smiley/Karla battle of wits--in the script writers' room. Sad.

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[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

Yeah, Karla sized up George's weakness in a few minutes at their first meeting and exploited it for years until George through diligence and good spycraft figured out Karla's achilles heel. Oh how I wish that The Honorable Schoolboy had been done as a miniseries too.

It is like "State of Play," which was a brilliant 6x60 min mini-series, cut to 6x45 min for BBC America and then further cut to a 120 min movie by Hollywood which of course cut out the soul completely. I didn't bother seeing the screen version of TTSS because I knew it was too short to do it justice, and even the 8 part mini-series seemed rushed.

The same thing happened to the Tom Clancy novel "The Sum of all Fears" which took out the middle east story line and replaced in with domestic terrorists (I assume to support Homeland Security's mission to override the constitution).

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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[–] bi-azh 8 years ago

Clearly there are two faction here - the one who like their spy films to have more action like in James Bond f.e. and those who prefer the more realistic approach, that we are given by John Le Carre, who was a spy himself and knew what he was writing about. Impossible to come together here and the discussion leads nowhere.
I prefer the realistic version and like Berlin Station very much, but not so much as Spooks, but we'll see.
One advantage of Berlin Station is that it is the first show (as far as I know) that uses American, British and German actors and being German myself I like it very much to hear both languages and not some American actor trying to talk German in a bad accent. There was a European miniseries called "The Team" were Danish, German and Belgian police came together for one case and that was very interesting language-wise.

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[–] earlogistix 8 years ago

You mean you have the attention span of a gnat and think spy stuff is Vin Diesel in xXx.

Its not.

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