Welcome to the weekly episode thread!
I won't clutter this up with any of my ramblings, I'll just use this as the starter ;) Again, please feel open to use this space as a place to put any ol' thought, theory, question/s, or the like below as a free flowing exchange of discussion for this chapter.
What a freakin doozy that episode was! I look forward to reading all your thoughts!
The bugs on the strawberries. Does that mean someone else can alter or influence his astral plane fantasy, or were the bugs part of his creation? Like he makes this perfect pure white sex palace but a dark part of his subconscious conjured up some pestilence.
That means they are not really safe in his mind palace. Either he or one of his alters can make monsters in the mind palace.
Wow Syd's story about switching places with her mom and being in her mom's body while her bf was having sex with her, but then switching BACK to her child self right in the middle of it?
Damn that boyfriend would be freaked out!
For me the bugs on the strawberries meant exactly what it was.
That Syd didn't actually sleep with David but rather Devil wearing David's face >:)
I saw the bugs on the strawberries as a symbol that the "dream" or astral plane fantasy or whatever was tainted somehow. Most likely that this was not the real David-persona having sex with Syd.
shareit wears a human face
shareThe segment with no sound went on too long
I don't really understand what was happening with his sister
Now wait, was the whole show up until now all in SYD's mind, not in David's mind?
the series is half over and i am more confused than ever
Yes this episode WAS a doozy! And I loved the segment with no sound. That was radical. I don't think I've ever seen that before in a series.
And the confusion is one of the coolest things about this series. Just when you think you sort of have it figured, out they throw you another giant curve ball. Is the whole show in Syd's mind? in David's mind? A combination of both? Or neither? Is any of it real?
I am LOVING this! I'm not much of a Marvel fan, but this show is the biggest mind f**k since Twin Peaks way back in 1991. I'm adding it to my Top Ten TV Shows of all time list.
I can hardly wait until next week's episode. And btw, this board is hopping now! Love it!
Since this is the last thing you posted here I'm just going to respond to all your messages in one ;)
The maggots on the strawberries I read in one of the ways you did too...that even though what we're seeing is all nice, bucolic, and sexy sexy times...you can't run from the dirt and danger that's bubbling underneath. The darkness is still there and lurking and it's coming for ya!
Syd's first time story was awful, I mean, that poor dude?! And just...it's hard for most people to even imagine their parents as sexual beings let alone be them when they're like that. Pretty cringey stuff.
"It wears a human face," was creepy as hell. I thought that was fairly obvious though right, like saying it may look like David (a human), but that ain't David! Solid last words from that dude.
The silent segment, I really liked. I like when films or movies utilize the silence, they forget that that is as effective as sound...especially since we're used to and expect sound when we watch things. It's not like any of us made the transition from silent movies to talkies, so we're all conditioned and grew up with the notion that movies/shows have sound and lots of it! To take that away is always a cool move when done sparingly because it automatically makes the viewer on notice and on edge.
I don't think it's all been in Syd's mind. Of course, any thought about this damn show is subject to change, haha....but I assume you brought that up because of the ending at Clockworks? I think we're still in David's head, just another layer deep. A lot of people theorized (myself included) that Clockworks was a delusion created by David as a sanity warehouse, of sorts, basically. Where he could keep all his riff raff, problems, and mental stress under lock and key and keep everything somewhat functional.
So, what I'm saying is...when he saw that Syd was in immediate danger in the white room by DYE, he transported her to Clockworks to get her out of there because that's all he could do since he was defenseless, in that moment, against DYE. It's the same thing he did with the gun pointed at them in his childhood home, he transported them to the white room to get them away. Even if Clockworks is real, he could use it as a reference to then create one in his own mind to get her there. Do you see what I'm saying? And we ought to definitely be worried that it seems "Lenny" is in charge there...
But this brings me to another point, this is all within David's head still. So, where are they really? Are they still under at Summerland? Are David and Syd still at the end of a gun? If they (or really just Syd, I'm thinking) got shot what would happen? If that were reality I'd just say they're going to come back to it with Syd possibly dead, but since we're under the assumption his childhood house was another level/plane in David's mind, what are the implications of injuries and the like? That episode, I think, was the best one so far. I loved it and it was creepier than almost any horror movie in like the last decade, haha....this show is something else!
I would like to add onto or even amend somewhat of my theory about Syd...we know she's not the only one who got "transported," the whole Summerland gang is there. So, either it can stay within what I suggested and David just took them all there for safety or...Lenny took over and did it as a way to get the reigns on the whole situation.
It's a different type of Clockworks since she's not a patient and we now have all the others, so which one was real? Will we find out we've been there the whole time?
Maybe, you're right, and it is in Syd's head, but...I don't think I'd like that very much. Narration turns like that are hard to make,in my opinion, and do them right. After being and investing in one character to make that change, ehhh, bothers me. Right now, as it stands, I think I'm sticking with my initial thought and it's some kind of defense mechanism of David's.
Silent movies were never really silent though, they had organ players in the theaters who played a 'score' that sort of went with the storyline. Heightened the mood.
The complete silence of that scene was creepy and definitely was used well to show that they were not in reality. Although if it is all in the astral plane then how does David still have his powers? I was unclear about the physics of these scenes. When they are in "David's world" , where are their bodies? And where is his sister's body?
Why do they need to drive cars to get to his house if they are only in his made up world?
I don't think the gunshot at his childhood home would do much since it was imaginary bullets and imaginary bodies.
Syd basically raped her mom's boyfriend. I mean, sex without consent, what else can you call it? The poor guy thought he was banging his girlfriend and then right IN THE MIDDLE she turns into someone else. Into an underage child. Holy shit. I have second thoughts about Syd after that story. I know she's a mutant but a 16 year old should know better.
Question though- if she turned into 16 year old Syd while they were still doing it, then that's her own body which has the powers, right? So would she have switched places with the man since they were touching at the time?
Yes the reason why I wondered if it was all in Syd's mind was that she 'woke up' in the hospital and all the characters were other patients or the doctor, kind of like in the Wizard of Oz where all the Oz characters were people from Dorothy's real Kansas life. So it makes it seem like Syd had just imagined the whole 5 episodes and populated her imaginary world with people she met at the hospital.
But if it is real and Lenny is in charge. that's a bad sign.
So Lenny, Benny, King and the angriest boy are all different forms of this parasite that lives in David. Is the DYE just another form of that same parasite, or is it another entity?
Good point on the silent movie things, I didn't really think too critically about making the comparison to be honest! Just wanted to illustrate stark contrasts and how implementing one where we don't expect it is effective. My bad!
I don't know the physics either of the astral plane, I don't know if many people do..maybe comic book readers do? As far as the show it hasn't really been explained. I wouldn't be surprised if they explain it a little more in the next episode, I mean they have to at some point right? Or it's kinda leaving us hanging while also letting them have carte blanche on whatever they want to make it in that moment. I don't know where their actual bodies are anymore, haha , we've gone through so many layers, I feel...I even asked that at the end of my post because, who the heck knows?!
Syd's sex story was quite illuminating to her character...I would hope most people would, at the very least, be uneasy about it. I also think it makes her current situation ironic in that she basically just had sex with someone that wasn't really the person she thought it was at that time...I mean sure, he looked like David, but as far as I understood it the DYE was in control of him that whole time. So, she was having sex with him and not the actual David. All of that is creepy and gross all around really, some weird sexual stuff going on with this show, to say the least!
And good question about Syd and touching that guy while already body swapped. I don't have a good answer, because again, they haven't fully explained her powers either. I've seen a lot of people asking about what the possibilities of her powers are and haven't seen much in the way of elaboration. You're right though, that entire scenario is horrifying. I'm not terribly surprised though, I still remain suspicious of Syd.
I think the DYE is the same as all those. I'm of the belief he's the "prime" parasite and all those others are his proxies pretty much...perhaps from different stages in David's life and the development of the DYE. He started out as a dog and as David grew so did DYE until what we see him as now. As for what's going with the whole Clockworks thing...I'm still of the mind it's either a defense mechanism or a way to keep the Summerland gang at bay so as to not interfere with DYE anymore. That's the best I got, but clearly they left that whole thing to be a whopper of a cliffhanger so we shall see next week, I suppose.
I'm about to rewatch it right now actually, so hopefully I'll get a tad better understanding of it...kinda bummed they ruined The Rainbow Connection for me, hahaha! Though, when you really think about those lyrics, they are pretty sad.
It looks like next week has them still at Clockworks (whether it's real or astral) and investigating why a door keeps disappearing. That makes me think it's astral, but then again David can alter the 'real' world too, so it could be the real physical hospital and David is just moving shit around with his telekinesis.
shareI'm inclined to think it's astral too...something I've noticed with the pattern of speech on this show is that David has trouble finishing sentences and often stammers them out. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a issue for actual schizophrenics because they're combating so much in their head while trying to speak, but my point in bringing it up here is this happens again in the last scene of this episode. David is trying to remind Syd where she was in her story, can't get it out, and then Lenny cuts into his stammering and finishes the thought. I just thought, if it follows the pattern of before it could be one indicator that it's still in his mind and she has, indeed, taken over.
I'd imagine the door will be their escape! But maybe his mind has left some kind of, literal, backdoor they can get access to to come back to reality. *shrugs* lol
Regarding the silent segment. I'm not sure if they are in the astral plane there. I think that David (or who/whatever is in control) has created some sort of psychic barrier or bubble in which reality is altered. And then after the gun is fired we go into the astral. And from there who knows where. IF we were even in the real world to begin with. But you can never be quite sure where you're at with this show.
shareIf this is true, and when they were at their childhood home is real...then my thought regarding that is...Syd could be dead. She jumped in front of that gun and all that happens split second. I don't know if anyone could've stopped or overpowered him right then. Where is the mutant that can stop time dammit?!
I kept thinking their minds got out of there, but their bodies are still there, in front of that gun. So, I wouldn't be all that surprised if we find Syd shot.
Yes, if it was real world, Syd if definately in big, big trouble.
shareThat's something that kept nagging at me! I was like, "sure....go into your little white room, but what about your body that's in front of a gun?!" And I'm not sure if we'll learn it next episode or not since it seems like it'll be quite Lenny--centric.
Sy'd gonna find the door, go through, see she's bleeding out on the floor and want to go right back to Clockworks, haha! Kidding, but they could always put her on some ice next to Oliver ;)
I don't think she had much choice in the matter :D I think David wanted to protect her, so he "zapped" her to the astral plane. Not very helpful to the real world situation, though. Again, if we were in the real world to begin with.
I didn't see the promo for next week, but yeah, I guess we're going to get another level, that they have to find their way out of. They're seriously Inceptioning us :D (though Inception was straight compared to this)
Well, yes, I understand the need to zap to that room right quick! You're right, no time to waste there. It was the best solution for the situation.
I read an article with the actor that plays Amy and at the end she said we get to spend a little more time with Lenny and seeing what she can do so that led me to believe we'd be getting a lot of her side of things next episode...it's going to be like 'Lenny's House of Horrors!'
What an episode. Just when I thought “Ah, they’re explaining stuff”, there they go again, with the wonderful confusion.
I liked how they didn’t show us the actual fight at the D3 place, just the aftermath and some important snippets of David using his powers and the DYE controlling him. It really shows you that they’re going for a whole other thing, than most of these superhero shows (as if that wasn’t evident already). What was with the doctor from Clockworks and them not releasing him though? What that Silver Eye taken his form?
Glad they figured out astral plane sex. Syd’s story is all sorts of wrong, but as she said, who’s going to teach you what’s normal, when you’re one of a kind. Not that it's much of an excuse. Makes you wonder if it's happened more than that time.
And the silent segment… I loved it! Different, creepy, and used very well. It even had a proper jump scare (not many around these days).
If they keep toping themselves like this, there are even crazier things in store. Next week can’t come soon enough.
Exactly, even if no one taught Syd 'mutant etiquette', the basic ethics of not having sex without consent should be taught to every human by the time they are 16. So I'm really not giving her a pass on that.
shareA bit of sympathy, because of her infliction, maybe, but definately not a pass. Not tricking people into sex is a basic thing everyone should know. You make do with the cards you were dealt, and find alternatives.
shareWomen and men trick each other all the time into having sex, it is a type of flirting. All human sexual life is based on tricking. So I am not surprised she did the same with mom's boyfriend.
share'All human sexual life is based on tricking.'
wow. You have never had mutually consenting, mutually beneficial sex.
Please do not generalize your experience to the whole world.
Insane, insane episode!
I liked that they showed the aftermath too. It's one of those things where less is more. Would it have been as much of an impact if it was shot and shown like any ol' fight sequence? Seeing the destruction with the violent snippets hits you more , I think. How much fun did Dan Stevens look like he was having?! haha DYE is horrible, of course, but I can't lie, I do love me some anti-hero antics!
My thoughts about Dr. Kissinger is that he was some kind of plant all along? I don't get why David wouldn't kill him for it then and why he left him. Maybe just because he had Amy and was ready to get the hell out of there. Sometimes leaving someone in such a state can be a worse punishment than death. I don't know, I think Kissinger must have been in on it somehow during his time at Clockworks and then conveniently being put next to Amy. Or if not at Clockworks, they kidnapped him and basically turned him into a spy for them.
If you look at his scenes from last week he's playing on Amy's sympathies and fishing for information, so...
And yeah, Syd's sex stuff continues to bewilder a tad (okay, a lot). She's also just kind of an asshole at times? lol. I get that she's on David's side and it's a harsh reality to see what he's capable of and all that, but...she can just be so rude and selfish sometimes. She seemed to be digging the "Devil David," even more than the real David, haha...oh the power of sex!
p.s. The Rainbow Connection scene and the scene with DYE chasing after Syd near the end broke my heart a little bit seeing the state actual David was in. In both of those scenes, with those tears welling up in his eyes, he just looked so pained and tragic.
The aftermath is definately more impactful, than the actual fight would have been. As much as I love this show, the whole scene, with the Summerland gang escaping from the D3 place in E01, was something that I didn't really care for. Not that a fight scene couldn't be exciting and beautiful and all that. But when you add superpowers to the mix, it becomes a bit cartoony and silly for my tastes.
Thanks for the insight regarding Kissinger (I'm terrible with names haha). He was definately acting odd, for a man trapped in a cell and wanting to be released. Even Syd left him there. But I still have no idea what's going on with him :D
Dan Stevens is doing an amazing job here. He's perfectly cast from where I stand.
And speaking of broken hearts, Lenny being all over him in the house, and seeing the state of him, generaly, there wow. I guess we *can* feel sympathy for David after all.
On a side note: Bird refusing to acknowledge that David has serious mental health problems, along with powers, really bugs me. She's doing more harm, than good, sticking with that.
I agree about the action sequence from the first episode. A lot of people have noticed how out of place it felt with the rest of it and 5 episodes in...it still does! That's why I think it's popular to assume it might have been imagined despite David asking Syd that and getting the answer, "yes it is real." If not than I just chalk that up to them a) having a small budget b) Hawley wanting to finally get his chance at such a scene c) story-wise show the strength, power, and chaos of the Summerland group.
Oh, I feel lots of sympathy for David...but I've always been a sucker for troubled souls sooo guess that was a no brainer, haha! It was so gross that they overlayed Lenny's kissing of him (more like slobbering) with groveling dog sounds, that certainly would make most things more unnerving, lol
As for Bird disregarding David's mental health, I'm right there with you. I still remain confused about what we're supposed to believe with him. Everything tells me he's still mentally ill, but everything they're showing me seems to be pointing otherwise. I hope they're doing that on purpose, I hope they're showing the effects of someone being told they're not, believing that, and internalizing that to make himself even more unstable. I just...don't know what the show itself believes on that front to really know what they're portraying here.
David, for how powerful he is, seems to be a very susceptible person to those around him. He was told to think he was schizophrenic and lived that way for years, and then meets these people for the somewhat short period of time and already believes all of that was wrong and that he's all powers. That sort of yo-yoing is terrible, and I agree, much more harm than good. You'd think after seeing all the destruction and death he caused this episode Melanie would be changing her tune a bit....guess she's desperate.
Re: the actions sequence in E01 sticking out. Maybe that's because it was reality, and after that we loose track of what's real and not real. But maybe they just wanted to throw in an action scene, and the first episode is more fitting to do that, than later on, when it becomes more trippy and it'll be really out of place.
Yes, I think Bird is a bit desperate too. At the very least she wants David's help to get her husband back (and in fighting the good fight and all that). And she also knows that there are people with powers who have been labeled as mentaly ill, so she refuses to accept that someone can have both. But David's mental illness fuels his power in a sense, or at least heavily affects it.
And he's all kinds of susceptible. To those around him, to those within him. And he often has no control over things that directly affect him. Hopefully Bird realises her mistake, and gets to really helping him.
That'd be wild if that was the reality, but who knows. We have multiple possibilities for what's the "real" world and what isn't at this point...it's a bit maddening! I agree that it was best to do then before we got into all the nitty gritty of what we get now since it's only gotten more psychological and cerebral. I'm sure we'll get some other action sequence...I suppose even that last D3 massacre could be considered one, but you saw they gave us that in more drips and drabs than a full on account of David's assault (which we agreed was better).
I don't get why Melanie can't think there are people who could possess both a mental illness as well as mutant powers. It's nice that she wants to take these people and cultivate their identity and protect them (though they're all being selfish in their own ways, then again, aren't we all), but...to be in such denial about him having any mental issues outside of his powers is short-sighted and dangerous. Plus, it will only serve to fuck David up even more because as we saw with his exchange with Amy, he's already fully bought into the notion that he doesn't have any mental health problems and is putting everything into the powers basket. That's a slippery slope towards power tripping, justification, and ultimately a relapse of sorts when he realizes that that's not the case at all and he still has some sort of mental illness going on still.
Again, I don't know what. He doesn't fit squarely into our perceived definitions of schizophrenia or DID, but it's very common of entertainment to mangle and meld some together to make their own cocktail of a mental illness that better fits their character...could be what's going on here, or they'll reveal more later. I hope they do and clarify this component of David up a bit better.
Came late to the party, as always. I just watched it. Well, some ideas scratching my brain rn:
1. Man, Dude has some skills in interior design. To be an untreated schizophrenic, he's very neat. Great sense of colour btw, he could make a living that way if the superhero thing doesn't work.
2. Points on "Radiohead - The Daily Mail".
3. It wears a human face.
4. Extra points for "You're adopted", I said it for fun and it turned out to be real. Maybe I saw this chapter before and I don't remember...
5. People keep talking about some random guy from the comics called "Shadow King". Well, I have no idea who he is or what he does but he should consider doing some aerobics and treating that anaemia. Looks horrible.
6. I like the fact that D3 is no longer 'a real threat' because that only means it's David vs. David. It couldn't be better from my perspective.
7. This chapter was def one of the darkest but somehow it manages to go truly hilarious many times (maybe more than ever IMO). Special points for that.
8. So... Three chapters to go and things getting weirder than usual. My cup of tea. I'm seeing at least two more plot twists before the end, so I'll consult my pillow about it.
PS. Sorry to have written the whole damn thing as a numbered list but my mind's rambling lately, so I need to put some order on my thoughts. Cheers!
No apologies necessary, neat and clean...like David's apparent aesthetic eye :p
Yes, the Radiohead song was just another notch in the show's awesome soundtrack belt, both original and not. It's slowly starting to become a thing where I'm wondering what great song will come next!
The adopted bit, yes! I'm surprised more people didn't mention this, but maybe it was an easy conclusion for most of us to come to. After seeing a lot of people mention his dad being his step-dad I was wondering why no one else was wondering maybe it's David himself who was the "outsider" to the family. Perhaps many of them had already decided that that was what it was or could be...or got sucked into the tidbits we've gotten about his dad.
I appreciate shows who put that stuff out on the table in the middle of a season. Ya know, a lesser show would've saved that nugget for like a season finale or whatever, but we seem to have gone faaaar past using that sort of stuff as the real twists. That makes me excited because it keeps me on my toes...if the usual suspects aren't the biggest reveals it makes me go crazy just wondering what else there is going to be! I can only imagine....
Hah potential Shadow King dude has been deemed from the onset by me as the 'Goiter Goblin,' as I told someone else around here....lol, I can't seem to rid of that name in my head now. Hey, helps make him less creepy!
I like David v. David too more than some external enemy (well I suppose Goiter Goblin could be considered external in the sense that he was and can be separate from David apparently). Like David himself said in the penultimate scene, "I can't stop her....me." Womp, womp.
I liked you saying that some of this episode was still hilarious. I agree that even as it gets darker it still has this offbeat charm and sense of humor that buoys the more fucked up stuff. It's like a more serious form of madcap, where it's zany, but in a much more tempered and finely-tuned way...if that makes any sense.
"Three chapters to go and things getting weirder than usual. My cup of tea," love it! I'm with ya 100%. The weirder the better, in my opinion, so really...I had no choice, but to love this show it seems! Just when I think I've found the wildest show another one comes along and so far, Legion tops them all. I almost want it to stay that way because what could come after this? Whooo boy!
PS. Now I'm the one who's sorry because any time I get to writing about this show my post takes on a life of its own & becomes much more bloated and longer than anticipated. Oopsie.
Amen!
I also really like that D3 isn't the real "enemy" anymore. David at war with his "mind roommates" is a much more interesting direction imo.
Making a numbered list is an excellent idea. As someone with a rambling mind, I should start doing that as well :D
Yes, perhaps the list is a good structure to live by :p Not that I need it or anything..... *
*sarcasm, that was lots and lots of sarcasm