MovieChat Forums > The Promise (2017) Discussion > BEING OBJCTIVE

BEING OBJCTIVE

posted 8 years ago by heyyodianapoke
17 replies | jump to latest

To be honest, I haven't seen the movie yet and my thoughts are totally based on the trailer and historical truths.

First of all, yes. All the cast's performance is great. They are talented in acting. I "used to be" a big fan of Christian Bale. But seeing him in a movie which is full of lies made me sad and had me to lose all my respect.

I agree that forcing Armenians to immigrate was a wrong act performed by the OTTOMAN GOVERNMENT, not by the modern Turkish Republic that has no politic bonds with OE. I'm not here to defend OE. But there are some facts that are forgotten.

A big group of Armenians started to act as a terrorist formation around the early 1900s or late 1800s. Their aim was to became the majority on some spesific OE lands to create their own country. They killed Turkish just because of their ethnicity and actually done a genocide that is forgotten over the years. They killed pregnant woman, innocent babies and little toddlers just to avoid Turks to reproduce.

But there were innocent Armenians too that only wanted peace and a nice life with their Turkish neighbors. We can't blame an whole race just because of the acts performed by their relatives. And also we can't blame a brand new government for the acts of previous authority.

The immigration wasn't decided to kill Armenians. Yes, the security could have been better. Yes, the terrorists may be determined and punished while the innocent people may have the right to stay in Turkish land. Yes the deaths may have been decreased.

The OE was named as "living dead" or "sick man" in those days by the government who waited the things above to be performed. How can a dying goverment that is pulled into to the biggest war the world ever seen could succeed those?

Genocide is the intentional action to destroy a people in whole or in part.

Armenian people didn't die because of a certain purpose. They died because huge mistakes was made. Yes, the deaths are OEs fault. But there isn't a genocide that can be talked about.

Oh, you may say "2 millions of Armenians was dead!!!!!" IT IS A LIE. There were only 1.4 million Armenians in OE, in 1914. For them, giving birth to 600.000 more is scientifically impossible.

Movie generalizes a lot of things. YOU CANT GENERALIZE THE HISTORY.

As seen in The Promise, all Europeans and Armenians are modern, has a sense of fashion, educated an honored. Despite that, Turks are wild, crazy for war, has long dirty hair and clothes.

There are a lot of famous poets, writers, artists, calligraphists that were born around the year. 1880-90. How can their work be this naive, elegant and aesthetic if all Turks are barbaric?

There are Turks beating Armenians, wrecking their stores and killing who ever confronts them in the movie. Yes, again, there were people like that. This is a fact.

But just like admitting the existence of innocent Armenians, not all Turkish people were like that! There were also Turks that fought for their neighbors. They helped their Armenian neighbors to hide. My friend's great grandmother created a shelter in her basement for her neighbors and saved more then 10 people's life! Some Turkish man fought for their Armenian lovers and did their best to not let them leave!

For me, this movie only focuses on a narrow piece of history. It's scenario is not objective. It manipulates the truths and serves the facts in a way that history never have approved.

And it always shows the modern Turkish flag just before the scenes with violence starts. Dont be blind guys. It is obvious that the director wanted to defame Turks.

I will watch the movie but I don't think it will change my thoughts since you can't change the history!

[–] arsen_al90 8 years ago

The thing is that time and time again the courts in their judgments have ruled that motive and intent are two separate things and most importantly it is enough for intent to be inferred from a systematic pattern of coordinated acts, such as in the Rwandan judgments, and which the Armenian Genocide case fulfills.

In other words, as long as there is a systematic pattern of coordinated acts which results in the death of a group simply for them being of that group, irrespective of the motive for those systematic pattern of coordinated acts, then it is genocide.

Turkish denial relies on propaganda which is a conflicting combination of blurring the legally established difference between motive and intent ("5th column", "they were enemies of the state so it was ok to kill them", "they rebelled", "they wanted their own state", ...), negating the existence of a systematic pattern of coordinated acts ("wartime casualty"), making the Kurds as the sole responsible entity ("just wanted to relocate, the Kurds killed them"), and making the Ottoman Empire as the sole responsible entity, when legally Turkey is a successor to and even in the eyes of some scholars a continuation of the Ottoman Empire.

[–] heyyodianapoke 8 years ago

The new government of Turkey had no bonds with OE when it was formed. Actually, the Turkish Government didn't recognized the Ottoman Empire between the years 1920 and so on. It was only the previous goverment for Turkish Republic, never a living one.

You can't attach any of the wrong things The Byzantine Empire did with today's countries that has an Orthodox majority, right? Or you can't blame a baby as a killer just because his grandfather once stabbed a man in a pub fight?

As you said, a Genocide's purpose is to end a race. Ottoman Empire didn't wanted to kill Armenians. They just didn't wanted them in their country and forced them to leave since most of them was trying to separate country and keep a peace of land. Maybe it can be considered as racism if you really want to but since the aim was never killing or ending the Armenians, you cannot call this chain of events and mistakes a genocide.

I am not an Ottoman lover. Actually I hate it's late years and glad the new Turkish Government was created and sick OE was gone. But I also can't
ignore the history as a whole just because I don't like Ottoman Empire.

[–] arsen_al90 8 years ago

Well what can I say. You are deluded and misinformed.

Im not blaming you though, your country has done a terrific job in brainwashing its people.

[–] heyyodianapoke 8 years ago

Believe me I am the last person that is brain washed. I am half Armenian to be clear.

I don't like today's government, Erdogan, late-Ottoman or racism but I love history, being objective, Ataturk's T.C., my country and informing people about the facts. Lol.

[–] bhyesilnil 8 years ago

Said the guy who doesnt care about Turks. You westerners are all the same. Nothing but hypocrites. Millions of Turks died and many more were forced to relocate in balkans and caucasus and NOBODY CARES yet same thing happens to Armenians and its a GENOCIDEGENOCIDEGENOCIDE. You lot caused the greatest miseries in the history(colonialism - TOTAL GENOCIDE of the natives) yet you act as the beacon of civilizations and seeing us as barbars. Guess what? We will never bend our knees to you.

[–] heyyodianapoke 8 years ago

++OE was ruled with monarchy, which means the all control was in the hands of one certain family. Today we have Turkish Republic which has no bonds with that family (actually, all Osmanoglu family wasn't even let to live in Turkey until 1970. My friend is one of them and their family is generally mixed with English people. The youngest members of their family are called Tatiana, Cosmo and so on.)

If you really wanna blame someone, go for their grandfather. But again, you can't show a baby guilty just because what her/his grandfather did.

[–] mknzycalhoun 8 years ago

I'm sorry but your are misinformed. Armenians did live in Turkey and sure maybe their were only 1.4 million in Turkey at the time but the OE came into Armenian and took most of what was Armenia by force. Mount Ararat used to be in Armenia. I have old maps that show just how much of Armenia was taken by the Turks. Armenians, Greeks and many other people died because they weren't Muslims. That is what motivated the attacks. Armenians or a band of Armenians were never the aggressors. If some banded together because they wanted to keep their country, can you blame them?

Their marches weren't like the trail of tears where Native American were forcibly moved to a reservation. The OE forced relocation was a relocation into a mass grave. My great grandmothers sister and cousins were marched out and shot. Eye witnesses told her that.

Government officials and their military took part in these acts. They killed orphanages full of children. My great grandfather escaped one of these after his entire family was also murdered. They were priests!

Now is it true the modern Turkish people were involved. No. But they deny the actions which is like the Germans denying Jews were ever mass murdered.

Are their good Turkish people in the world. Of course. Just like with some Germans hiding Jews their were Turks hiding Armenians and those people aren't what upset the descendants of this genocide. It is the denial it happened or the accusation that a band of Armenians brought about the decimation of towns. That it brought about the Turkish military carving a trench around villages to make Armenians sitting ducks. That those soldiers felt it was okay to desecrate Armenian graves and those of newly buried babies.

Russian military intervening because they knew the Armenians were being mass murdered? Russia (of all places) opening borders to harbor those Armenians? Mass immigration just like for the Jews?

You are right you can't change history and the genocide of millions of people which were mostly Armenians but not solely can't be forgotten.

[–] heyyodianapoke 8 years ago

What you don't get is I'm not saying OE was innocent. They made huge mistakes and sadly lots of people died bc of that. I wish things could have been different.

Yes, OEs mistakes and their idea to force Armenians to immigrate caused innocent people to die. I'm not supporting any part of this. It was a wrong act. It is something to be ashamed of.

But what I'm trying to say that, even it was wrong all over it wasn't also a genocide. Because it's aim wasn't to end/kill a certain race. If you call it wrong, if you call it cruel, if you swear to OE authorities because of their mistakes and for not making the immigration plan safely and well detailed I'll back up you with my all respect. But it wasn't a genocide since the deaths weren't caused by an certain aim but an unfortuned chain of events and mistakes.

After the Armenian Immigration, somekind of an exchange was made between Greeks and Turks in 1923 when new Turkish Government was established. 1.5 Greeks went back to their country and 800.000 Turks that lived in Greece came back to turkey. The idea was same as Armenian Immigration but there was a difference since their security etc was well thought and nobody died, there wasn't mass-dying cases seen.

In the Greek Migration we see how things could happen for Armenians if OE was more careful and cared more about Armenian people. OE was mistaken and personally I would never forgive them for that and blame them for deaths. But also I am not going to call the events as a genocide. Because as I said before a mass murder wasn't the aim at all, the deaths were caused by mistakes that weren't predicted.

If

[–] heyyodianapoke 8 years ago

And yes I also don't deny some Turks were brutal at that time but so did Armenians, Americans, Greeks and people all around the world.

Just like you, I grow up hearing some stories too. My great aunt is an Armenian and she managed to stay in Turkey since she was married to a Turkish man.

She says the both sides were cruel. As I said before she even told me a story which Armenian groups one tortured a pregnant girl, stabbing her stomach and getting the unborn out and and using it as a commination to have Turkish girls not wanting to breed and increase the amount of Turkish people. And she told me stories containing Turks kicking Armenians out of houses, burning villages and stuff. So I grow up feeling close and empathic to both sides since my family is quite mixed. All I write depends on my own historical knowledge and objective thoughts.

[–] heyyodianapoke 8 years ago

And as I said before you can't generalize in history. If some sadist(?) Ottoman soldier killed your relatives Im sorry for that. I hope they'll rest in peace. But you can't blame a full nation or an later born government because of an act performed by an individual.

[–] arsen_al90 8 years ago

Your "excuses" for the systematic Genocide committed by Ottoman turks sounds alot like the excuses nazis came up with for the holocaust post World War 2.

You need to seriously re-evaluate yourself and what the hell you are saying.

[–] heyyodianapoke 8 years ago

I actually cant understand if you're actually stupid or just acting like one. Stop closing your ears and sing "lalala" just bc you are Armenian.

Nazis killed and blamed people just because of their race when there weren't actual proof and took Jews to gas chambers when they didnt wanted them in their land anymore.

Turks wanted Armenians out of country because both sides were killing each other brutally and there was a war about to start. And rather than killing all the Armenians, they just wanted to move them out of their land.

If you can't see the difference between two, well you are the one who is brain washed. You are not objective and since you are getting it too personal you re not allowing yourself to see the truth. History never lies but you keep ignoring its facts. What you do is like denying the non-existence of talking big bad wolfs in front of a zoologist who is trying to inform you with exemples from science, just bc your mother raised you telling stories about red riding hood.

[–] heyyodianapoke 8 years ago

Lol erdogan is the one who i hate the most and you are A disrespectful dickhead

[–] chrisvartanian 8 years ago

LOL Genocide denial at its finest

[–] heyyodianapoke 8 years ago

At least I don't change the history and made up new facts just to make myself seem right. Everything I say are based on written truths and I can prove every single one of them:)

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] skilletstayla 8 years ago

You shouldn't be objective here bro. The intention is just putting the blame on Turks as its since the dissolution of Ottoman Empire.