MovieChat Forums > Denial (2016) Discussion > Holocaust denial after Irving imploded

Holocaust denial after Irving imploded


Did Irving's implosion in court end the Holocaust denial movement? Obviously not, if you've read this board. But it did signal a sort of changing of the guard.

Holocaust denial initially was a two-fer: a movement to rehabilitate Hitler's reputation as well as a weapon to attack the Jews by mocking and denying their tragedy. The basic lines of song and dance hasn’t changed in fifty years — those four core points that Lipstadt writes on the white board in the first few minutes of the movie went back to the beginning of the movement and are still in play today.

Now, after fifty years of Holocaust denial, it's clear to the deniers that the battle for Hitler’s image is lost. They weren’t able to turn the mainstream tide, and they no longer try (very much). Sure, promoting Holocaust denial means trying to get Uncle Adolf off the hook for one the world's greatest crimes, but that's incidental. Not unwelcome, just incidental.

Instead, Holocaust deniers focus on the other side of the coin: Holocaust denial as a way to attack the Jews. Exposing the “Holohoax” means exposing the treacherous nature of the Jew by unmasking their grandest criminal scheme, a swindle of literally global scale touching every nation on earth, every newspaper, every broadcaster, every publisher, every history department. In conspir-o-sphere form, "Holocaust revisionism" is about a massive international hoax that The Powers That Be Don’t Want You To Know WoooOOOOOoooo.

What this means is that the basic fault line in the Holocaust denial movement -- the question of whether to be overtly anti-Semitic or only tacitly anti-Semitic -- remains in place. Do you do the "I'm just an innocent researcher who just happened to learn there was a swimming pool in Auschwitz, and I'm now wondering whether this negates the entire story we've been told about the Jews in WWII" flavor or do you do the "White man, you must free your mind from the propaganda shackles by which the Jew enslaves you" flavor? Both flavors have shown up on this board.

You don't have to be a neo-Nazi to promote Holocaust denial; you just have to hate the Jews more than you hate the Nazis.

This pivot -- the decision to soft-peddle Uncle Adolf, while continuing to promote the Big Jew Conspiracy theory -- happened about the time of Irving's defeat, about the same time the main Holocaust denial organization internationally (the grandly named hate group, "Institute for Historical Review") went to pieces over infighting.

Since Irving's defeat there's only been one new name worth noticing in the movement: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. If there's a more complete description of defeat than that, I don't know what it is.

reply

The swimming pool isn't shown in the tour...

But said swimming pool, said theater, brothel, place to play soccer, place to buy cigarettes, what have you, currency, that doesn't necessarily negate that people were being exterminated, no. But denying the Holocaust doesn't mean you have to hate the Jewish people nor their religion. It's about finding what is true or not. Not saying that deniers cannot be anti-Semites, just saying that not all are meets-the-eye. Not all are robots in disguise.

I simply don't see how a little girl could have gone to Auschwitz and have survived her time there when it was the height of the extermination process. Why ship her away from Auschwitz during a typhus epidemic? If the Nazis wanted all Jews exterminated, why ship Anne Frank to Bergen-Belsen? A German concentration camp in which no gas Chambers supposedly existed?

Question to which I've not gotten an answer. In respect to any others whom wander upon my post.

reply

And let's not forget Otto Frank was being treated in this "death camp's" infirmary.

That was a great "extermination" policy - we treat you in our infirmaries and then we gas you.

Ridiculous!

reply

A look at the timeline might help.

The Frank family was rounded up in August, 1944, the same month Paris was liberated. The General's Plot against Hitler had been the previous month, as had been the fall of the Nazi death camp at Majdenek. With the capture of Majdenek went any hope that the Nazis might be able to pull off their intended cover-up of the Jewish genocide; now it was all about trying to minimize the scale of the crime, because they could no longer deny that the genocide had happened. Auschwitz III (i.e. the factory at Monowitz, not the camp where the Jews were) also got its first dose of Allied bombing the same month the Franks were arrested.

Auschwitz was both a slave labor camp and a death camp; the "selection" process was simply choosing those healthy enough to work for at least a little, versus those too young, too old, or too ill to work, who were killed immediately. The nominal cut-off age was 14; she was 15, so she was deemed fit for slave labor -- that is, to be worked to death.

Sensing that the Nazi grip on the camps -- and Europe itself -- was fast falling apart, in October there was at Auschwitz a sonderkommando uprising which destroyed Krema IV. In November, the remaining Kremas at Auschwitz II (i.e. Birkenau, the site of Jewish extermination) were ordered, probably by Himmler, to be shut down and destroyed. And November (mid October at the earliest) is when the surviving Franks were transported to a camp inside German territory, Bergen-Belsen. Auschwitz itself the Nazis abandoned in mid-January, so the Franks were shipped out of Auschwitz in the panicked last dozen weeks of one of the largest of all KL camps.

Why weren't the prisoners at Auschwitz killed? Why where they transported instead? Several reasons. The Germans still wanted slave labor. The transportation process in many cases was in its own way a form of extermination, a death march in the dead of winter (although those who went to Bergen-Belsen did so by cattle car). And Himmler was also planning for the end game.

From the USHMM site https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007407:

After the failure of the July 20, 1944, putsch, Himmler toyed with the idea of negotiating a separate peace with the western Allies while continuing to fight the Soviet Union. During the winter of 1944-1945, he considered using concentration camp prisoners as a bargaining chip to initiate such negotiations. In April 1945, Himmler met with the representative of the World Jewish Congress in Stockholm, Sweden, Hilel Storch, to discuss openings for negotiations. In part because the Allies would not negotiate with a man so implicated in Nazi crimes and in part because Himmler could not quite separate himself from Hitler or the belief that somehow the Germans would win the war, his half-hearted feelers came to nothing.

reply

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005210

in September 1944, SS and police authorities placed the Franks, and the four others hiding with the Franks, on a train transport from Westerbork to Auschwitz, a concentration camp complex in German-occupied Poland. Selected for labor due to their youth, Anne and her sister, Margot were transferred to the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp near Celle, in northern Germany in late October 1944.


http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Camps/AuschwitzEng.html


"Initially the new facilities were "underutilized". From April 1943 to March 1944, "only" 160,000 Jews were killed at Birkenau, but from March 1944 to November 1944, when all the other death camps had been abandoned, Birkenau surpassed all previous records for mass killing. The Hungarian deportations and the liquidation of the remaining Polish ghettos, such as Lodz, resulted in the gassing of 585,000 Jews. This period made Auschwitz-Birkenau into the most notorious killing site of all time."


The 2nd quote was when Anne Frank was in Auschwitz. The time that most of the extermination went on, and in which most were put into the gas chambers...

Google

At the end of October or the beginning of November 1944, Margot and Anne Frank are crammed into a crowded freight train bound for the concentration camp at Bergen-Belsen.





Denying an historical event doesn't mean approving it even if it indeed happened...

reply

What gives me comfort is that all the denier's usual talk of the "last days of the big lie", "…soon…", etc. is nothing more than wishful thinking on their part, and one of their own, Mark Weber of the IHR, had realized this correctly:

Revisionist: It’s Time To Quit Shoah Fight

One of the primary leaders in the fight to question and delegitimize the Holocaust has proclaimed that fight to be a lost cause

[...]

“It’s been almost 30 years, and Holocaust revisionism has gotten almost no support in academic circles or society at large,” Weber told the Forward. “It’s gotten some support in Iran, or places like that, but as far as I know, there is no history department supporting writing by these folks.”

http://www.forward.com/articles/14953/


And as you correctly stated before, this failure to create any impact on historical research at all is not because of some almighty Jewish conspiracy, but because the self-proclaimed "revisionists" failed – if they really ever had this intention at all – to deliver a convincing alternative interpretation of the given historical facts and evidence. Or one could say: because they are flat out wrong and lying.

It's good to know that there is still some sanity outside of the internet forums and that the majority is clever enough not to fall for this. This gives back some hope for humanity ;-)

reply

It's good news and bad news. The good news is that, despite the concentrated efforts over decades of wackbird anti-Semites like Weber and McCalden and Carto -- and yes, David Irving too -- Holocaust denial turned out to be a very ineffective way to attack the Jews, because you've got to be an absolute moron to think there's anything to it. The bad news is that people like Weber have found rhetorically easier way to attack Jews.

reply

There's another interesting aspect to Weber's declaration that the Holocaust denial movement has been a failure.

The whole point of going through the exercise in the late 70's of creating a false front "institute" as a way to promulgate Holocaust denial was to gild the crap -- to paint over the obvious anti-Semitism of Holocaust denial, and give it a veneer of faux scholarship -- was that the movement knew its affiliation with the Jew-hating blackshirts of the National Front, National Alliance (Weber), British National Party (IHR co-founder McCalden) was a clear bar to their ever getting mainstreamed.

So out came the bag of pseudonyms, and out came the "Institute of Historical Review" -- which asserted that it was not anti-Jewish, oh no, no not that, no never, not anti-Jewish at all, no sir no sir, and which tactically drilled its members to pre-emptively read a cue card saying "How come if you question the Holocaust even a little they call you an anti-Semite" ... a cue card we've heard rehearsed on this board quite a few times. The whole purpose of the organization was to try to separate, in the public mind, the issues of Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism.

They failed. They failed from day one. Crash-bang-boom level failure. Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism are Siamese twins joined at the hip, and the IHR couldn't convincingly pretend otherwise.

Then, in 2009, Weber finally accepts reality: the Holocaust denial movement is a batting zero. Nobody's buying the idea that Holocaust denial is legit, rather than anti-Semitic crap posing as legit. "Almost no support in academic circles or society at large." Hitler is not going to be rehabilitated. The crime is not going to be erased. The Irving verdict was a hammer blow. "Over the past ten years [i.e. since about the time of the Irving verdict], sales of IHR books, discs, flyers and other items about Holocaust history have steadily declined, along with inquiries about Holocaust history and requests for interviews on this subject."

So in the same statement he announces the pivot: the IHR will now devote more energy to The Jew Per Se. "Jewish-Zionist power is a palpable reality with harmful consequences for America, the Middle East, and the entire global community. In my view, and as I have repeatedly emphasized, the task of exposing and countering this power is a crucially important one. In that effort, Holocaust revisionism cannot play a central role."

In doing so, he also comes out of the closet in terms of what the organization really intended all along: to attack the Jews. And his statement says basically, attacking the Jews indirectly didn't work, so let's do it directly.

It's an admission that the IHR had failed, and failed completely, decade after decade. in their central purpose: to mask the fundamental role of anti-Semitism in the creation and promulgation of Holocaust denial. They just couldn't keep the friendly-face "we don't hate Jews" mask from slipping, again and again and again, decade after decade. They couldn't separate the Siamese twins, and decided it was time to not only acknowledge the twin they were trying to keep hidden all along, the anti-Semitic one, but to let him take the lead hoping he will succeed where the other one failed.

And, again, this is not a few oddballs at the fringe; this is the IHR, the most important organization in the history of the Holocaust denial movement, worth a chapter of its own in Lipstadt's "Denying the Holocaust."

reply