Simple Question: Make the Math!! - Denial (2016) Discussion

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

It's a great point. But Holocaust deniers don't ask themselves that question, because they don't care about the Jews. They just want to get their Nazi heroes off the hook for murdering them. Outside that, their actual interest in the Jews of mid-century Europe is zero.

reply

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] rfkorving 8 years ago

I researched this some four years ago, and honestly I started doubting just how bad the Holocaust was.

One of the denier's main weapons is a genuine population count that does not show a 6 million drop, but one far, far less. I think it was half a million. But of course someone always finds out something is off. If I remember correctly, it was partially an estimate based on an earlier count.

So I don't think all Holocaust deniers are neo-nazi's and/or anti-semite. Those particular people are simply extremely distrusting of their government and media.

Sounds familiar? US Elections?

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

I researched this some four years ago

Really? Which books did you read?

By the way: http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/worldalmanac.html

reply

[–] rfkorving 8 years ago

Which books? I used the internet to fact check denier claims. Since that was some four years ago, I have no idea what sites I used. But for the population count, your link was quite possibly one of them. I just got to it on my own too, since it was high up in my search results.

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

I used the internet to fact check

So you may have been using denier sites to "fact check" denier claims.

reply

[–] rfkorving 8 years ago

Why would a denier site attempt to debunk denier claims? You're not making sense.

I don't think you can ever be certain about accuracy with these types of subjects, but debunkers tend to be more thorough, and there are these really cool things called "reason" and "logic" that you can apply.

Why would you yourself refer to a site covering the lack of decline in numbers?

Your initial question was: "Really? What books did you read?" and now you criticise use of the internet. Because... you can always trust books??

Seems to me you're just arguing to argue.

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

Why would a denier site attempt to debunk denier claims? You're not making sense.

They wouldn't. That's the point. If you're trying to "fact check" one denier site and you do it by referring to another denier site, you're not going to get a "fact check," you're just going to get more snake oil. You yourself don't know the sites you used to "fact check" and so you yourself don't know whether it was really a fact check or not. Hint: based on your conclusion, which is wrong, it wasn't a fact check.

but debunkers tend to be more thorough

They tell you that. You believe it. Some amateurs on the internet believe it too. But when actual professional historians look at Holocaust denial, they find it very, very shabby methodologically. The Irving trial is only the most famous example -- Irving caught in lie after lie after lie after lie, all to shore up his -- and apparently your -- position on the Holocaust. Historians also see, by looking at the history of the Holocaust denial movement itself, that it is clearly the product of the racist far-right but has tried to disguise that fact with false-front organizations and fake names -- and in your case, that disguise has succeeded.

Why would you yourself refer to a site covering the lack of decline in numbers?

Because, if you actually read the whole thing, you'll see how it demonstrates that the World Almanac numbers during and immediately after the war are *known* to be no good. But Holocaust deniers still want to rely on them to "prove" that there was no great fall during the war. The article I pointed to shows why this is a denier flimflam, and explains it in detail.

You gave an example of what sort of thing convinced you the deniers were right. I'm showing you why the argument that convinced you fails upon examination.

Your initial question was: "Really? What books did you read?" and now you criticise use of the internet.

Because the internet is full of amateur crap. Surely you don't deny that when it comes to other subject areas, so why deny it when it comes to Holocaust history?

reply

[–] rfkorving 8 years ago

Stop it! You're preaching to the choir! You basically said what I said, in more words.

At first I didn't realise you actually thought I had become a denier. Evidently, you jumped to a false conclusion early on and it went downhill from there on. I said "doubt", not "reject". You falsely assume I consider fact checking browsing denier stuff (and then blindly accepting it) and the "debunkers" the ones rejecting the Holocaust. I have no idea why, and it still makes no sense you think I'd consult deniers to debunk deniers. Can anyone actually be that dumb?

One of the counters to deniers I found was the page explaining the lack of decline in population numbers. The very one you provided. I said so, even elaborated... Yet according to you I used that opposition to denial... to accept the denial... That makes no sense.

But hey, kudo's for not being an *beep* and explaining stuff patiently. Read my posts again, knowing I do not reject the ~6 million death toll. How could I? I'm Dutch. My nation has suffered horribly.

"Because the internet is full of amateur crap."
-- Yes and again, books aren't necessarily more reliable. I know that because I've been defending science against creationism, ancient history against bible narratives and I've been discussing what the bible really says vs. dodgy apologetics and interpretation revisionism.

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

Stop it! You're preaching to the choir! You basically said what I said, in more words.

Yes, I misinterpreted you, and I apologize.

reply

[–] rfkorving 8 years ago

No problem Zort, it happens sometimes. I myself have occasionally argued against people that turned out to be on the same side.

reply

[–] volvorod 8 years ago

So you're saying that what you read is 100% proof, but what others read may very well be false.?

You trust you're sources. Why distrust other peoples sources?
What makes you correct and others not?

It comes down to what people choose to believe what is truth, not what really IS the truth.

The only ones you can possibly trust is people who have nothing to gain telling one side or the other. These kinds of people are pretty hard to find..

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

So you're saying that what you read is 100% proof, but what others read may very well be false?

When everybody who has any kind of advanced degree in astrophysics says the world is round, and it's only self-appointed internet nuts who couldn't solve a differential equation to save their lives who say the world is flat, then it's a pretty good bet that the world is round.

Same with the history of WWII. The folks who know it best are quite sure that the Nazis had a genocidal plan against the Jews that ended up costing six million Jews their lives. On the other side, you've got a bunch of nuts and yahoos and self-appointed "scientists" who don't know science and self-appointed "historians" who don't know how the historical methodology works. You've got seig-heilers and clucks whose arguments fall apart the moment they make contact with actual fact.

reply

[–] UglytheClown 8 years ago

It's a great point.
No it isn't.

There were more Jews AFTER world war 2 than there were before it started ... SO, either the 6-million number (which is an inflated number, oficially it is closer to 3 million) is a lie, OR... Jews were screwing like bunnies during the war and having babies, left, right and center  (which isn't likely)

The '6 million Jews dead and dying' stat was around from about 1910, and published in Jewish owned newspapers for decades. It wasn't until 1948 that the '6 million Jews killed by Hitler' came into the modern mindset, and not maintstream until about 1965.

But Holocaust deniers don't ask themselves that question,
because it's not a real question (and the answer is already known to researchers)

because they don't care about the Jews.
Really? What about the JEWISH 'holocaust deniers'? 

They just want to get their Nazi heroes off the hook for murdering them.
Such a small mind you have. I hate all racists, sexists and most other 'ists' you can think of. I teach karate and 3 of my students are Jewish. 3 others are Indian and 1 is black. Calling me a racist is like calling yourself a moron and crappping in the street as you do so.

Outside that, their actual interest in the Jews of mid-century Europe is zero.
People have to be interested in Jews 

In the age of youtube, it's amazing anyone can be so ignorant (you can verify claims using Google) I only started look 6-months ago and I bet I know more than a history teacher 

It'll be a shame when these boards are gone. I bet this movie is the reason it's going.

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

Yeah, a big pile of the same old debunked talking points. There isn't one of those comments we didn't already know was false even *before* the Irving trial. If there's one thing this forum has taught me, it's that Holocaust denial hasn't had a new idea in forty years -- just new cave squeakers like you to take up the same ol' lies.

squeak squeak squeak

Whatever.

reply

[–] UglytheClown 8 years ago

Yeah, a big pile of the same old debunked talking points.
What points?

There isn't one of those comments we didn't already know was false even *before* the Irving trial.
Which?

If there's one thing this forum has taught me, it's that Holocaust denial hasn't had a new idea in forty years
'New idea'? In order for a 'new idea' you'd have to uncover something new (too late fr tat) or make something up... and there's no need to do so as the official story is enough lies for anyone.

-- just new cave squeakers like you to take up the same ol' lies.
Oh Lordy 

reply

[–] Mikey-Buckets 8 years ago

"I bet I know more than a history teacher" LMAO so laughable

You're denying the Holocaust because "the 6 million is an inflated number, officially it is closer to 3 million."

So, even if the number were 3 million (which it absolutely isn't btw)... somehow that means the Holocaust didn't happen... Now the number is 0... WTF???

Denier logic: 2+2=snowcone

The conclusions you morons come up with have zero logic or evidence, and it's HILARIOUS listening to your delusions.

reply

[–] UglytheClown 8 years ago

"I bet I know more than a history teacher" LMAO so laughable
You wish  All you 'know' about the events of WW2 is what you were told in school. That's it.

So, even if the number were 3 million (which it absolutely isn't btw
Yes it is. After WW2 the plaque outside Auwitz said 4-million died... then in the early 90's, this was reduced to 1.5-million (and the plaque replaced)Some OFFICIAL estimatioons are actually closer to 1-million TOTAL.

... somehow that means the Holocaust didn't happen... Now the number is 0... WTF???
No. I'm not in any way saying it didn't happened. Jews WERE murdered... but not 6-million and not in gas chambers.

Denier logic: 2+2=snowcone
Oh the irony 

The conclusions you morons come up with have zero logic or evidence, and it's HILARIOUS listening to your delusions.
Wrong!  You SAY there is no evidence... yet you refuse to look at what you're shown and the questions you're asked 

Let's see if you can get through this video Auschwitz Vs. Science https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9HOBBBszZE It's 20-minutes (a bit ong for your attention span, especially as you dropped out of school 'cos it was hard) but this way, you can't say you weren't shown anything.

QUESTION: Where are the 6-million bodies? Where are they buried?

reply

[–] Mikey-Buckets 8 years ago

They are in the same place that the so called "only 3 million" are... Burnt. The only "Official" numbers, are not remotely close to anything you've said. You're getting your "facts" from known and proven liar and bigots. Why would I even entertain your fake facts as anything other than that.

Wow. Easiest debunk of all time. If I dropped out of high school, then that should be embarrassing for you.

Next

reply

[–] UglytheClown 8 years ago

They are in the same place that the so called "only 3 million" are... Burnt.
HAHAHAHAHA!!! Crematon does not destro the bones  Oficially sto is that they were burned and BURIED! Where are your '6-million' buried? No such number has ever been found.

The only "Official" numbers, are not remotely close to anything you've said.
Not true. The oficial number was reduced in the 70's and then again in 1990. Keep up  (they're not going to broadcast it on TV)

You're getting your "facts" from known and proven liar
who?  I got my from the newspapers... you can see the clippings in the youtube video I sent you

and bigots.
1) you don't know where i got anyhing
2) a person being bigotted doesn't mean they're not right about something. Example... The guy who arrested OJ for murder was a racist... but OJ was also guilty.

Why would I even entertain your fake facts as anything other than that.
how could you know facts ae 'fake' unless you take a lok at them first?  Oh how you uneducated think.

Wow. Easiest debunk of all time.
what is and how so?(bet you can't anwer the questions)

If I dropped out of high school, then that should be embarrassing for you.
how so?

Next
the haven't answered the previous post yet 

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

You know, the amount of pure misinformation in your posts is probably straining the record in this forum, and that's saying a lot. Let's pick just one.

The oficial number was reduced

Please point to any major historian of the Holocaust of the last, oh, say, fifty years, who says that the Jewish death toll of the Holocaust was three million. Name, academic affiliation, and link, please. Note: stupid handwaving doesn't count. Trying to play the Auschwitz Plaque gambit yet one more time won't cut it. Barney The Blabbity Basement Guy On YooToob doesn't count. Find the guy who says, "You know, we thought it over and it was really only three million."
Spoiler: you won't be able to. Why? Not because of some great big Jewish conspiracy every historian in the world bows to, but because your buds in the Holocaust denial movement lied their ass off to you about it, and you -- having a lower IQ than the average bag of rock salt -- couldn't wait to spread your ignorance.

reply

[–] UglytheClown 8 years ago

You know, the amount of pure misinformation in your posts is probably straining the record in this forum, and that's saying a lot. Let's pick just one.
Not true, it's just stuff you don't know because it's not on TV, andyou assume uch thinhs would get on TV even though 90% is Zionist owned, and with this information out there, suport for Israel would fold.

Please point to any major historian of the Holocaust of the last, oh, say, fifty years, who says that the Jewish death toll of the Holocaust was three million.
You mean someone YOU like  I don't need to. yo can google it. Also, historians just repeat that they are told. They don't do the investigating  It was a pretty big story in 1990.

The fact the the 3-million plaque at Auwsitz was changed to 1.5 million shows the official number was reduced by at least 1.5 million, but I see basic math challenges you 

Name, academic affiliation, and link, please. Note: stupid handwaving doesn't count.
You're mad at a smilie? 

Trying to play the Auschwitz Plaque gambit yet one more time won't cut it.
you mean THE COLD HARD FACT YOU CAN'T ESCAPEFROM is annoying you 

Barney The Blabbity Basement Guy On YooToob doesn't count.
Oh look, an ad hominem 

You have no evidence the youtuber is a 'basement guy' and even if he/she is... it doesn't change the information presented in their video, does it?  Oh how ignorant you uneducated's are.

Find the guy who says, "You know, we thought it over and it was really only three million."
Official dead revised twice. Google it.

Spoiler: you won't be able to.
Already done.

Why? Not because of some great big Jewish conspiracy every historian in the world bows to,
Please, the Holocaust is the subject that people dare not speak about for fear of being outcast and you know it, no matter wha evidence is found and presented. Hell, it's illegal to even QUESTION the official story in 14 countries. When questions are called crimes, you are living under the hand of the criminals

but because your buds in the Holocaust denial movement lied their ass off to you about it,
no 'buds in no such 'movement'. I've bee looking into this subject for less than a year. And noting I've said is a lie, just things you don't know bevause you believe such a lie would be exposed y TV (yet on all those conspiracy investigation shows, not ONE episode of ONE show has dared tackle the Holocaust )

and you -- having a lower IQ than the average bag of rock salt -- couldn't wait to spread your ignorance.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! My I.Q was measured 2-months ago and scored 136. I qualify for Mensa, you spoon 

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

Not true, it's just stuff you don't know because it's not on TV

Uh, no. I know this turf much, much better than you do. I've been watching you idiots for almost twenty years now, watching you groan and strain and make over-exerted faces as you try to have a new idea ... which you then fail to actually have. The question is not *whether* I can demolish you, but whether I *decide* to demolish you. Fish. Barrel.

Please point to any major historian of the Holocaust of the last, oh, say, fifty years, who says that the Jewish death toll of the Holocaust was three million.

You mean someone YOU like

No, ya moron, I mean any major historian of the Holocaust of the last, oh, say, fifty years, who says that the Jewish death toll of the Holocaust was three million. In other words, I mean exactly what I said. And what was your response?

I don't need to. yo can google it.

Damn, Skippy, you caved instantly. Split-second timing. That must be a world record in "uh, sorry, my mouth wrote a check my sparse little brain couldn't cash."

Name, academic affiliation, and link, please. Note: stupid handwaving doesn't count.

You couldn't do it. You failed. Fail-o-rama.

you mean THE COLD HARD FACT YOU CAN'T ESCAPE FROM is annoying you

If you knew more about the history of Holocaust studies, you'd recognize what an idiot you look like. But you don't. You don't know squat about what you're talking about, and your ignorance bleeds through every word you type.

Would you like an education about the Auschwitz plaque gambit? Just say the word.

Oh how ignorant you uneducated's are.

"Uneducated" -- hilarious. Follow up on that one. You won't like how it works out for you.

Spoiler: you won't be able to.
Already done.

Already failed, you mean. I called your bluff, and you caved in record time. "Oh no," chirped the cave squeaker, "I really don't have what I claimed I had before you called my bluff, but maybe Google does."

I've bee looking into this subject for less than a year.

And you've been doing a really, truly wretched job of it. Are you sure your IQ wasn't measured in *Room 136* and you got the numbers confused with your (presumably two-digit) result?

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! My I.Q was measured 2-months ago and scored 136. I qualify for Mensa, you spoon

Lemme guess, you took a Facebook quiz. You're really, I should mention, barking up the wrong tree on the I.Q. thing, and it's quite possible you might be picking the wrong quy to play lets-compare-brains with.

reply

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

This guy is the sort of idiot that the deniers love. Throw a stick and he fetches.

Yep, they're playing him like a harmonica. A very, very stupid harmonica.

reply

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

Yeah, the Auschwitz Plaque gambit again. These dopes have probably tried to play that gag twenty times in this forum, and they've been wrong every time.

reply

[–] Prismark10 8 years ago

I think they imply that they fled before the war started to the UK and the USA.

It's that man again!!

reply

[–] room102 8 years ago

The thing I don't understand is why Holocaust deniers would deny that it happened. Aren't they supposed to be proud of Hitler and be happy about what he managed to "accomplish"?

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

They live to fulminate about how the Jews are conspiring against them. The bigger the conspiracy, the better the fulmination.

reply

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

Congratulations, Sennacrib, it took you three whole sentences to go spinning wildly off the rails and into a bug-eyed Gish Gallop. That's remarkable restraint, for you.

Sure, lots of people died in WWII. But they didn't all die the same way, and they didn't all die for the same reason. The Jews of Europe didn't die because they were in a war; they died because Hitler decided that being Jewish was a capital offense.

And for fifty years, Hitler apologists have tried to pretend there was something hinky about the gas chambers as a way to get their beloved Fuhrer off the hook while attacking the Jews.

reply

[–] BravisJ 8 years ago

Where hade gone 4-6 millions Jews in this 6 years from 39-45. Are they living in China in a happy big Jew Colony, Took the Aliens them to the Deep Space.

1st of all, that little quote started off smartly enough, then you became indecent. You needn't be distasteful about Holocaust revisionism. This is a serious matter, and no I am not being sarcastic. People being accused of genocide is no laughing matter. Nor is the accusation. It's troubling to see those whom claim decency to throw their morals out the proverbial window when it comes to matters they deny. You deny that there's no evidence for no extermination, while there is plenty.

The following quote from a youtube video I watched tells you where those Jews went, and it wasn't in a homicidal gas chamber. You may say, "Oh, he's one of those youtube revisionists that know absolutely nothing!" What you'd be neglecting to understand is that youtube has plenty of Holocaust documentaries of all sorts, much more to the ends of promoting than the revisionists, I'd wager a guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc_cRTc62MQ&t=1226s

What happened to the alleged 6 million dead?

Many hundred thousands of Jews immigrated from Europe before the war. Aproxamitely a quarter of a million died as a result of old age, mal nurishment and disease in the camps and ghettos.

A Jewish military brigade group was formed during the war and at least a million Jews fought in uniform and many fell in action. Other Jews pretending to be civilians but murdering from ambushes died as partisans.

Thousands of Jewish communities in Poland, Russia, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia were destroyed by their own anti-Jewish groups and not by Germans.

On the 17th of November 1941 Stalin actually sent out order number 0428 ordering special murder squads to dress in German uniforms and slaughter civilians behind German lines. Always leaving a few survivors that could blame the murders on the Germans.

Many Jews continued to live unmolested in Germany and occupied territory and many of them were killed as a result of the allied bombing raids.

One day before Germany surrendered British bombers attacked and sank in Lubec bay the Cup a corner and the teal deck killing 8 thousand Jewish patients from neuengamme and Bergen-Belsen camps as well as many German medical staff.

After the war many thousands of Jews liberated from concentration camps in the east were immediately enslaved as laborers by the Russians. Interestingly, as Jewish populations in Europe drop dramatically they arose just as dramatically in other countries such as Israel, the US, South Africa and south America as well as Australia.

Many more Jews decided they had had enough of being Jewish. And they changed their names and religion.

Denying an historical event doesn't mean approving it even if it indeed happened...

reply

[–] tanmarkk 8 years ago

the 6 million number was a guesstimate, based on numbers of jews missing ..kind off. besides many having fled, a huge number hid during that time, some, about 125,000 died of mostly diseases in the KZs.

"violate me with a wine bottle"

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

An idiotic argument.

You say they hid during the war -- but the war's over. Has been for a while. Did the missing Jews spend the next seventy years hiding, and they're still hiding now? Please show me -- with documentation -- when it was that the the six million hiding Jews came out of hiding.

reply

[–] Dazed_are_numbered 8 years ago

My word,you're so patient!

I think this may be the most depressing board I've read.When "because YouTube says so" becomes a way of denying the Holocaust,well it makes me want to cry a little.

If these people are ever in London perhaps they might benefit from a trip to the Imperial War Museum.There is an exhibition,called The Holocaust Exhibition at the top of the building.I'd recommend viewing it last because even the most keen war enthusiast wouldn't have the heart to look at anything else afterwards. They'll be glad to get outside.

There is plenty of evidence there, visual,tangible,photographic,spoken word,written word.It starts with Hitler encouraging the dehumanization of Jewish people.

Sir Guy Grand-I like school of Rembrandt
Youngman Grand-St.Rembrandt's high

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

I don't do these comments because I think I'm going to change the mind of deniers themselves; when someone holds up YouTube cranks as experts -- despite their demonstrable lies and their complete rejection by the actual experts -- while simultaneously (and conveniently) waving away entire categories of evidence proving the Holocaust, he's effectively *chosen* to let himself be swindled, and there's not much I can do about that. When they ignore the clear evidence that Holocaust denial is a product of the hard anti-Semitic right, because said YouTube cranks leave that part out, not much I can do about that either. Nuts will be nuts, racists will be racists. But at the same time, I'm not going to let them have this forum as a place to spew their crap unchallenged.

It's also nice to know that I'm not the only person in the world who's seen "The Magic Christian." My favorite line -- as an American -- is when the advertising man gives his pitch for campaign for the (ridiculously huge) automobile in an ostentatiously American accent, only to have Guy Grand reply: "Try it with an American accent."

reply

[–] Dazed_are_numbered 8 years ago

Well I just wajted to say how I admired your patience.

In all honesty Holocaust denial is not something I can begin to understand.How on earth do they explain away the anecdotal evidence of survivors,those involved,the photographs,the missing people,I mean in a horrible simplistic way how is that not proof enough?

For me it's just incredibly insulting to all of those (not just Jewish)who lost their lives.Obnoxious really,but I suppose if someone is going to sympathise with the types of people who could perform such appalling acts they must be fairly lacking in humanity themselves.

The Magic Christian is one of my favourite films its so nice to meet someone else who has seen it.
So many great lines,cameos and a wonderful soundtrack by Badfinger.Peter Sellers on fine form of course.

I think the line you quoted is followed by:
"That WAS an American accent"
"Really? what's going on over there?"
And wasn't the car a Zeus pronounced Zayus!

A favourite of mine is John Cleese as Mr.Dugdale,on being offered £30,000 for a painting worth £10,000:
"Thirty thousand *beep*
Youngman then looks offended at the profanity and is comforted by Sir Guy
"Oh I do beg your pardon" says Dugdale.

Sir Guy Grand-I like school of Rembrandt
Youngman Grand-St.Rembrandt's high

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

Ooops, my Americanism showing through. I should have called him *Sir* Guy Grand.

reply

[–] charlimcbean 8 years ago

Re: the OP's comment:

I recently resat my science GCSE as a mature student as I didn't achieve a successful grade when at school. We studied the Thalidomide tragedy and learnt that even after it was discovered about the horrendous effects of the drug in some parts of the World, other countries continued prescribing it for morning sickness. Our teacher asked us how this could have possibly happened and we talked about the differences in communication then (1957) compared with now - i.e. no internet, few households had their own telephones, etc. Rewind 12 years (1945) and throw in mass immigration, entire geographical areas devastated by War and presumably an understandable phobia of a country which treat you and your fellow Jews despicably and now come back to the question as to why the reported 6 million Jews didn't make contact with their families, friends or neighbours. For a start the 6 million figure is widely disputed. Then - although I'm not suggesting absolutely every one of the missing Jews had survived - how would the survivors have made contact with others? I am interested to learn here so if you would like to reply please do so without calling me an anti-Semite, racist or Nazi and stick to the facts or clearly-thought-out opinions. Lets have some genuine discussions rather than being bound to our echo chambers and primitive mud-slinging methods. Thank you.

Clever girl

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

Thing is, it's no longer 1945, or 1960. Where did the Jews go, in a way that they wouldn't be found in the next 70 years, yet leave absolutely no trace?

This is the question Holocaust deniers have terrible trouble with. Before the end of the USSR, they used to say: "Stalin brought them all in and resettled them." But now the Stalin-era archives are open, and there's nothing at all about mass resettlements of millions and millions of Jews.

Historians look at it like this.

Millions of Jews were never heard from again. They had one thing in common: they came from the areas which were either part of the Reich or part of the Nazi occupation. The Nazi regime made no secret of its violent anti-Semitism, and after the war Nazi war criminals didn't even *try* to deny the genocidal policy or the gas chambers.

If the Jews somehow secretly escaped, and secretly resettled, then where? What evidence? And how do you keep six million Jews completely silent about having escaped the Holocaust?

reply

[–] charlimcbean 8 years ago

It seems absurd that I would want to thank you but having seen some of the responses on these boards that is exactly what I feel the need to do - thank you for not replying to me as though I'm an idiot, a Nazi, a racist or anti-Semite. It is important that we can have open discussions about this.

You are absolutely right it is no longer 1960 and survivors may have practically made contact more easily as communications advanced. I suppose I was thinking - as I referred to - that perhaps 6 million people hadn't 'gone missing' and then that perhaps the young may not know where to start in terms of making contact (who, where, how), the old and infirm may not have survived and the survivors past 1945 who could make contact may have struggled emotionally and/or practically. I just imagined what it would be like if I were forcibly moved across countries - in some cases continents - no longer had the phone numbers of my loved ones, they had been moved goodness knows where from their original addresses and were not contactable online, some of their original homes and areas no longer existed after bombing - I don't even know where I'd start. Plus if we had all faced horrendous atrocities because of our common beliefs it may be incredibly difficult on an emotional level to dare to try and make contact if we figured out a way. By the way I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong I'm just sharing my train of thought.

I haven't looked in to this - at all - to know that there was absolutely no trace of the missing Jews left after the War (I assume we're talking about things like death certificates) so I can't really comment on this in any way.

That is useful information about Stalin.

I couldn't possibly answer the questions about where Jewish survivors resettled and what evidence there could be about this. I suppose I was thinking that many were forcibly removed from Germany to other countries. But if some survivors had managed to escape then surely it would be exactly that - a "secret" - kept due to fear of persecution. How could you ever trust another single human being again after such diabolical experiences from your fellow countrymen to such a huge, tragic extent?

I wouldn't suggest that Jewish survivors were "kept silent", more that significant emotional and practice barriers have existed to communication (as above).

Clever girl

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

I could understand communication being very difficult both during and immediately after the war. But when you're talking about six million Jews, you're talking about a third of the world's pre-war Jewish population. There is just no way for so many people to voluntarily vanish in such perfect silence -- silence so perfect it's still going generations later -- especially if silence would keep them from reuniting with their families.

If you look at the Jewish populations of various countries before versus after the war -- once you've compensated for border changes -- there really aren't any nations that suddenly had a big increase of Jews. That is, if you add up all the Jewish immigration, you don't get anywhere near the numbers you'd need to dent the six million. That's why Stalin used to be the deniers' magic bullet: there was no way to check the USSR immigration records. Well, now we can, and ... nope, no wartime Jewish immigration to speak of, and the same for the immediate postwar years.

But if some survivors had managed to escape then surely it would be exactly that - a "secret" - kept due to fear of persecution.

Even if half stayed silent, you'd still have enormous numbers who didn't. Different people react to tragedy in different ways. One of the hallmarks of Holocaust survivors who moved to the US immediately after the war is that they very much wanted to talk about what happened to them.

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

Also:

For a start the 6 million figure is widely disputed.

Not among historians, just among amateurs, many of whom -- as you can see on this board -- make no efforts to hide their antisemitic agenda.

If you're looking for the best single source on Holocaust denial, what it is, which neo-Nazis and white-supremacists invented it, where it came from, why it's wrong, and how historians know what we know about the Holocaust, Robert Jan van Pelt (played in the movie by Mark Gattis) wrote a terrific expert report which is available for free on Emory's site about the Lipstadt trial.

https://www.hdot.org/vanpelt_toc/

reply

[–] jackbaumel 8 years ago

Here are the facts: Serious unbiased research by the overwhelming majority, almost all, reputable historians supports a conclusion. You deny the conclusion in whole or part based on your own biased "research" done with dubious sources. Why? Why are you even motivated to take such an unpopular position when you lack any credentials? Why not let the issue pass into history, like WWI or the Civil War, and leave it to the academics? the answer is obvious. You are a neo-nazi appologist who wants to whitewash the Third Reich.

reply

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] charlimcbean 8 years ago

Thanks Zort, will look up your link when I have the time needed to do it justice rather than skim-read it

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

The Holocaust denial movement has had about fifty years to polish a (small) set of opening gambits, each of which is designed to at least initially appear plausible to people who (a) aren't historians and (b) aren't familiar with the actual evidence of the Holocaust. If you've been reading the stuff Holocaust deniers post as long as I have, eventually you come to recognize the same old tired set of old tired lies.

reply

[–] filmflamfilm 8 years ago

The number of people killed by the Nazis is fairly well known because the Nazis, as good Germans, kept very good records. Unfortunately, as the Russian troops discovered the death camps, the Nazis tried destroying those records. Nevertheless, they did not always succeed. In any case, there were usually two sets of records: one would be the records of the people entering the camp and the other would be a record of their extermination. Quite a few of these survived the war.

To get a good number, therefore, I would recommend Wikipedia. Since this subject took place in Germany, I looked in the German Wikipedia. Here is a list of both concentration camps and extermination camps with death figures: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Konzentrationslager_des_Deutschen_Reichs

And here is only the exterminaton camps: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernichtungslager

The column with the title "Geschätzte Anzahl der Toten" is in English: estimated total of the dead. The other columns are titled Name, Location, Type, Begin date of operation and closeing/liberaton date.

By adding up these columns, from both the concentration camps and extermination camps, you should come with a fairly close number to the actual murders.

In another chart on the first page, there is also a list of handicapped people who Hitler had killed because they did not live up to his image of the Arayan superman. Most of the people were not Jewish.

These figures are only from the camps. The Nazis also killed people on streets and in other places. The Nazi invasion of Russia was at least partly unsuccessful because Hitler had the soldiers kill Jews along the way. Approximately one million Russian Jews were killed during Operation Barbarossa.

reply

[–] pauliewalnuts-48096 8 years ago

To get a good number, therefore, I would recommend Wikipedia

Dear God... Wikipedia? Seriously? Talk about low level research.

Not one single case of extermination has ever been proven. And that's a fact. If you can't prove one, no way in hell can you prove six million.

The six million figure is horse *beep* Hilberg pulled his numbers out of his ass, and he admitted under oath he could not prove a single case of death by gassing.

Case closed.

reply

[–] filmflamfilm 8 years ago

I hope by "case closed" you were referring to that box you'll be living in soon.

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

More likely, the case in which he was committed to a mental institution.

reply

[–] pauliewalnuts-48096 8 years ago

How about providing a case of extermination instead of resorting to childish names?

One single case. It shouldn't be hard if you have millions to choose from...

reply

[–] ZortMcFleen 8 years ago

The difference between Clown and all the other denier clowns on this board is that in his choice of names he seems to recognize, dimly and in the two or three brain cells he has that aren't solely dedicated to basal lizardly metabolic functions, that he actually is intellectually beclowned. That self-recognition, marginal and inchoate as it is, is still better than you're ever going to get from the rest of that droolin' brigade -- Paulie, Kid Jewishsong, deathsqueaker.

reply

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Mikey-Buckets 8 years ago

Lol no, not ironic... But expected really. Would you really expect anything else from such people? These are probably the same type of people who try to defend pedophile priests, or terrorists, or what have you.

reply