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What this board taught me about Holocaust denial


It's long been a hobby of mine to observe crank cases, pseudo-scientists, conspiracy theorists, and other entertaining wackadoodles. So natch I'm going to keep an eye on the Holocaust deniers too. I started this in the mid-90s, a few years before the Irving trial, and I watched the Irving trial (and its failed appeals) very closely -- reading the expert reports, all the transcripts, and the verdict in its entirety.

Back in Irving's day, the Holocaust denial movement was trying to present itself to the mainstream as a legitimate alternative interpretation of history, exactly as justifiable as what historians knew and taught about the Holocaust in history departments around the world. The trial took the Holocaust denial position head-on, and demolished it, buried it in an avalanche of evidence. After Irving, there was just no excuse for saying Holocaust denial was rational or that the Holocaust itself -- the genocidal policy, the gas chambers, the six million murdered Jews -- was in any serious doubt outside the droolin' wackosphere.

So this board looked like a good place to have a look at the state of the Holocaust denial movement almost two decades later.

When the Holocaust denial movement first came together in the 1970s, it was with two purposes: to attack the Jews by jeering at their cataclysmic tragedy, and to defend and rehabilitate Adolf Hitler and Nazism's racial policies by erasing that racial policy's greatest crime. To rehab Hitler they had to deny his racial policy of genocide, and to do that, in turn they also had to deny the great physical symbol of that genocide -- the industrial-scale gas chamber -- and the enormous Jewish death toll. Combine that with assertions that the whole thing was a Jewish fraud, and you had all four of the core points of Holocaust denial, the points you see Lipstadt writing on the whiteboard at the beginning of the film.

The Holocaust denial movement in the 1970s knew that flying the Nazi flag was going to get them nowhere, so they created false front organizations ("The Institute for Historical Review") and took up pseudonyms, all in an attempt to portray Holocaust denial as an independent academic movement, rather than just the ravings of racist lunatics. To de-Nazify the Holocaust denial movement, or at least the face it manufactured for display to the mainstream, they had to pretend they weren't in it for the racism or the Nazism, oh no no no, but because they were honest seekers of truth doing nothing but the honest seeking of truth, which they honestly sought honestly and truthfully, and on and on the mantra went.

And nobody bought it. The IHR could never shake their antisemitic reputation, no matter how many fake names they hid behind.

Then along came Irving, the closest thing the movement had to a respectable figure -- and in the international spotlight, he failed spectacularly. He hoped for at worst a partial defeat, and instead he was sunk like the Bismarck. And with him he took down the whole "let's pretend we're respectable people with a dissident historical opinion" wing of the movement.

So what does the Holocaust denial movement look like now? This forum gave us a front-row seat to the cave squeakers. And the answer is: it looks like Nazi bedlam. Almost none of the Holocaust deniers here tried to distance themselves from open anti-Semitism. The few who did had posting histories belying their assertion that they weren't motivated by anti-Semitism.

The interesting thing is that the arguments they proffer now serve a different purpose. Back before Irving went Hindenburg, these arguments were genuinely meant to be genuinely persuasive. There was a genuine attempt to look scholarly, to print a scholarly looking "journal," to host scholarly looking "conferences" and to try to persuade the mainstream.

With the demolition of the "scholarly" wing, what's left? The cave squeakers now brandish the very same arguments -- in a surprising number of cases, *exactly* the same arguments, as in the Auschwitz Plaque gambit -- but without any real sign of comprehension, and with no intellectual support for it beyond Herman Hitlerlover's Trooftroopers videos on Thuh YooToob. I mean, if it's on YooToob, it's gotta be true, right? Nobody has ever lied on YooToob, not even once.

And they can't even really state their 70s-rehash arguments with any degree of clarity. They know not whereof they speak. But, functionally, that's okay. They're not meant to be arguments, per se, in any scholastic, disputational sense. They're just bloody shirts antisemites grab and wave, and -- characteristically -- they drop each one the moment it comes under any serious factual attack.

So, what did I learn? In 2009, the leader of the IHR -- blackshirt Mark Weber, formerly of the white-separatist National Alliance -- made waves in the movement by saying, look, folks, it's just not working, this pretend-we-don't-hate-the-Jews thing didn't fool anyone, and we should make it clear that we are in fact an anti-Jewish organization. And that attitude is very much on show here among Holocaust deniers, who made no effort to hide their antisemitism except for the most perfunctory and vestigial "but I'm not an antisemite" dealt randomly every now and then.

The good news is that many good people stepped in to slap the Holocaust deniers down for their nonsense, and they quickly reduced the Holocaust deniers to incoherent rubble. It's good to see.

Anyway, as the site draws to a close, the cave squeakers are now chasing their own frog tails, declaring (incorrectly) that we're all part of the movie staff, that we're paid to defeat them, that we're all sockpuppets of each other, and so on. They have nothing to lose, so they're going to throw everything they have, no matter how dumb. Get ready to have a good laugh at their expense!

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Extremely well put sir.

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No one is going to bother to read that diatribe.

What they will notice however is you first took permanent residence on this board months before the movie release and have been permanently bumming around here like a bad smell.

They will also conclude you're a tel aviv basement dwelling orc.

They will also conclude that when you lose an argument as you oh so frequently do you will put that person on silent so not to be reminded of your repeated failures to provide a coherent argument.

The Goyim know

Shut it down.

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"You're a tel aviv basement dwelling orc."

Pointless retarded racist proves he's a pointless retarded racist.

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Do you have any idea how many of these idiots have accused ME of working in some basement in Tel Aviv?

Most are 9/11 twoof-tards, and Neo-Nazis.

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LOL All those 25,000 messages. Straight down the memory hole pretty soon. All that work for nothing.

The Goyim know

Shut it down

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For scumbags like you, it's well worth it!

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The trial took the Holocaust denial position head-on, and demolished it, buried it in an avalanche of evidence.


HAHAHA! Avalanche of evidence? Van Pelt was reduced to lying under oath to win the case for Lipstadt. He committed perjury and should be in jail.

Referring to an incinerator, that was never even built, to "prove" all those bodies could be cremated is not evidence you lying scumbag.

When you have to lie in order to "win" a case, truth is not on your side.

I wonder why van Pelt was reduced to lying, Zort?
He knows better than anyone there was no extermination policy.

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Wow, now THAT'S an avalanche of evidence proving him wrong and you right!... (EXTREME sarcasm)

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I say the avalanche of evidence Zort is referring to does not exist. If you think it does exist, state what it is. It's very simple, Mikey.

Now go ahead and state the avalanche of evidence if you think there is any...

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Thank you for taking the time to shed light on such an important subject. It was an excellent contribution. Please keep the torch lit!

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Yes, the torch stays lit.

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I think the Israeli Palestinian conflict has fueled Holocaust denial as well.

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Two valuable things I learned from the deniers a long time ago already:

1. Don't underestimate the power of belief systems

Belief systems. We all have them. They are really strong and can shape our perception of reality – to the point of actually distorting reality. We should constantly question them by being self-critical. This seems to be a trait usually missing in the typical character of a denier. When I first met deniers and read their statements I thought they couldn't be serious and really mean it. What I learned is that actually they often do really mean it. Their perception of reality is totally twisted and filtered by certain ideologies. With them the conclusion comes first, only then the search for "evidence" to support this conclusion.

Whenever confronted with evidence that speaks against their belief system, instantly mechanisms to explain it away kick in: eyewitnesses, even if there are thousands with the same basic message and their testimony is supported by documentary evidence or physical realities, are all "unreliable". Nazis who testified were all "tortured" or have something to lose or to gain. When contemporary Nazis have spoken or written explicitly about extermination, liquidation or gassing they "meant something else", or the words had a "different meaning back then". Documentary evidence was all "faked after the war". Databases with Jewish victims or Shoah museums are instantly dismissed as "untrustworthy, because they are Jewish/Zionist".

Psychologists have names for this phenomenon. It's called cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias. Today in the age of the internet this phenomenon can be easily amplified: people have their ideological echo chambers where their own viewpoints are constantly confirmed, they almost never get confronted or criticized any longer. This can lead to a perception of reality that looks totally convincing to the individual, but has nothing to do with objective reality anymore.

2. You can "prove" literally anything – as long as you leave certain info out of the picture

What historians criticize about deniers among other things is their lack of a clear, defined methodology when dealing with evidence. You see a hypocritical approach towards evidence by the deniers: whatever fits their ideology is approved, anything else is dismissed, most of the time just ignored – even if it is in the same source as the approved evidence! Cherry-picking your facts and leaving certain details out of the picture can create a perception that looks convincing, but has nothing to do with reality anymore. The pattern is often the same: leave information out of the picture and give the whole thing a certain sensationalistic spin. Some examples: deniers don't tell you that the majority of historians didn't believe the Soviet's 4 million estimate that was used on the Auschwitz plaque and that it was based on a flawed method of estimation; they don't tell you that the World Almanach for many years had estimates of the Jewish population that were based on old, not updated figures; they don't tell you that the Red Cross report only listed deaths about which they could find documents and that the Red Cross strongly rejected the denier's interpretation of their documents. They don't tell you that Höß was not beaten while giving his testimony in Nuremberg or writing his memoirs while in Polish captivity, and the two sources describing him being beaten while being in British captivity generally confirm the Shoah as well. The book by Rupert Butler which is used as a source by them is actually hearsay – which is something that deniers never accept when dealing with evidence in support of the factuality of the Shoah!

Finally I have to really thank you for constantly confronting the deniers. Trying to convince them is an exercise in futility of course, as you are clearly aware of, but it's a job that has to be done anyway. And you, Sir, have done a really good job here.

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Whenever confronted with evidence that speaks against their belief system, instantly mechanisms to explain it away kick in

That's a good point. When these clowns say "there's no evidence," what they really mean is "our movement uses an idiosyncratic and stupid definition of 'evidence' that is (a) unlike anything used by actual historians and (b) gerrymandered specifically to exclude as much actual evidence as possible, although (c) anything appearing on YouTube can be taken for established fact, if it's something we agree with."
Cherry-picking your facts and leaving certain details out of the picture can create a perception that looks convincing, but has nothing to do with reality anymore.

That's true. Historians have a big job -- explaining *all* that happened in WWII, in a consistent and cohenrent way (or at least as consistent and coherent as the historical figures who made that history). And historians aren't going to reject something as well-established and well-documented as the Holocaust, which left its indelible mark on virtually every nation in Europe, unless their new understanding explains *more*, not *less*. And Holocaust deniers just simply can't explain, in any scholastically defensible way, what happened to a third of the world's Jews such that they were never heard from again. Unless/until they can, in a way supported by actual evidence and not bug-eyed fever dreams, they've got no chance to hit the historical mainstream.
Finally I have to really thank you for constantly confronting the deniers.

You've done a great job pointing to the actual evidence, and showing that the lies these guys are trying to peddle are neither new nor persuasive.
Trying to convince them is an exercise in futility of course

Agreed. But I decided I wasn't going to let them pull their crap without blowback -- to inform the living and honor the dead.

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