MovieChat Forums > Avengers: Endgame (2019) Discussion > My take after a 2nd viewing (spoilers)

My take after a 2nd viewing (spoilers)

posted 6 years ago by arflexit (2376)
29 replies | jump to latest

The good:

Death of Iron Man: The way they did the death and funeral of Tony was quite effective and emotional. This is probably one of the most powerful superhero death's ever, i think it beats out Logan's death. The funeral scene with the message to his daughter nearly had me choked up, and that is not an easy thing to do.

Death of Black Widow: the scene of her death was well done and i felt it was a great emotional close to her character. I think it got glossed over a little to fast after they got back, but it felt like a great arc to a interesting and complex character.

The management of the epic scale and huge cast was done just remarkably well, they had an even bigger cast to juggle than infinity war and I think they did so with even greater success.

The Time Heist was one of the most interesting ways I have seen time travel handled, despite the fact that there are still holes in it, it did a good job of maintaining what feels like logic and consistency within the universe; not perfect but good.

Action sequences were remarkably well done and what could have been messy hard to see action was not.

Nebula and the actress's performance was awesome, she just became one of my new favorite characters. The scene where she had to kill herself was messed up in the most awesome way. And though Gamora was only in this one for a short time, I really like how they brought her 'back to life'. Both funny and true to her character.

A great closing to the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

The Bad:

I hate what they did with Hulk. He was so boring and did not really add anything to the story other than being a plot device that could us the gauntlet and survive.

Captain Marvel was an awful character. I have not seen the Captain Marvel film yet, but are they intentionally making her as pretentiously smug and unlikable as they can? I am glad she was only in for a few minutes.

The 'girl power' scene (though short) was pretty obviously forced and really took me out of the scene for a few minutes. (before any claims of misogamy are cast my direction, I encourage to read above about my praise for Nebula (now my favorite surviving character), Gamora, and Black Widow.)

Thanos's objective changed wildly from wanting to eliminate half the population and letting the remaining population flourish to destroy them all and start over. This removed one of the more interesting aspects of his character, which was no more death than what he thought necessary, this change in objective made him more generic and boring.

Also his power level was wildly inconsistent. He seemed more powerful in this than he did with all 3 to 5 stones. His army and generals were wildly underused in the final battle. Too much focus on him without the stones and his strength to battle off as many and more enemies than with the stones added to the inconsistency. Thanos's generals should have been more involved in that fight.

The Ugly (or honorable mentions)

The Thor fat and pathetic story line became redundant and painful to watch after about 10 minutes. It was fine for a few laughs but they should have moved on from it faster.

Gamora was notably missing from Tony's funeral and the entire end of the movie. Unclear if she went back to her timeline or not.

Timeline seems all screwed up. They returned the stones but now Thanos is missing from the 'prime' timeline. So the the time branches theory doesn't seemed solved by returning the stones to their proper place in time.

Captain America ending was odd to say the least, I do not know if we are supposed to think he lived out a separate time line (alternative universe) or if he lived in the prime and stayed non-involved throughout the 20th century to avoid messing up the timeline.

[–] ultravioletx (10237) 6 years ago

"Timeline seems all screwed up. They returned the stones but now Thanos is missing from the 'prime' timeline. So the the time branches theory doesn't seemed solved by returning the stones to their proper place in time."

Fixing the alternate timelines was never the goal. A timeline is only screwed up when compared to our own. In the context of itself, it is normal. Except in one case, which is the removal of an infinity stone. If an infinity stone is removed from a timeline, that timeline needs to be fixed by having it returned... according to the Ancient One. For example, at the end when Cap brought the hammer back to 2013 Asgard probably because it was easy to drop it off while he was in the area to return the Reality Stone, but the real mission for 2013 Asgard was returning the Reality Stone.

Also, Thanos isn't missing from the prime timeline. He had his head cut off. His body is decaying somewhere in the Garden. He is missing from the 2014 timeline though. But again, it doesn't matter. The removal of someone or something from a timeline isn't something that needs to be fixed unless that thing is an infinity stone.

[–] fc31 (6092) 6 years ago

If an infinity stone is removed from a timeline, that timeline needs to be fixed by having it returned... according to the Ancient One.

I think that is a misunderstanding. I think what Ancient One said was that without the time stone she won't be able to defend her timeline, so time stone has to be returned. The others are more of courtesy.

Otherwise Thanos would have doomed the universe when he destroyed all 6 infinite stones.

[–] ultravioletx (10237) 6 years ago

Correct, in a sense. She says both. She says the Infinity Stones create what we perceive as the flow of time. Not just the Time Stone, but all of them. Remove one, and then you have branches that all need their stones. For her specifically, it was the Time Stone.

Thanos may not have doomed the universe by destroying them, but that doesn't mean there aren't going to be significant problems because of their destruction. Also, when infinity stones are destroyed, its a part of the nature of that timeline. When one timeline steals another timeline's infinity stone, its a sort of unnatural change that isn't supposed to happen... again, according to the Ancient One.

[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

I just realized too, in the 'prime' timeline there is no Time stone anymore; all of them were destroyed by Thanos and the one's they borrowed are returned. I wonder what that means for Dr. Strange the Sorcerer supreme. So i am confused about why the ancient one and Dr. Strange were so adamant about it not being even feasible to allow the time stone to be destroyed or taken.

[–] ultravioletx (10237) 5 years ago

I believe we are going to find out in future movies just how disastrous things get by having no infinity stones.

[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

I suppose that would be an interesting direction to go, the fall out from what Thanos did actually having a lasting impact outside of Stark dying and Steve Rogers umm, "retiring".

To be honest though I kind of look at this movie as the end. 23 movies was enough. This was a fitting close to the story that started in Iron Man (2008). If it continues from here it will be like a show that goes on clearly past its prime.

[–] ultravioletx (10237) 5 years ago

Its the end of the infinity saga, but yeah, they could easily use it to start new sagas.

[–] Shooter (112) 5 years ago

He did not destroy the stones. He shrunk them to make them impossible to find.

[–] ultravioletx (10237) 5 years ago

They saw the energy signature that was released when the stones were destroyed. Plus Thanos had no Pym particles, and didn't even know Pym particles existed.

[–] Shooter (112) 5 years ago

The signature was from using the stones a second time. That second time was to shrink them. Thanos himself says this.

I believe they mention the first snap sent out a similar signature. That is how they knew where Thanos was.

[–] ultravioletx (10237) 5 years ago

"I used the stones to destroy the stones."

That is what Thanos says.

There is no infinity stone that shrinks.

[–] Shooter (112) 5 years ago

Im not saying your wrong. Maybe we need a third party. Im pretty he spoke of shrinking them and spreading them out.

[–] ultravioletx (10237) 5 years ago

I'm saying you're wrong :)

[–] Shooter (112) 5 years ago

Funny thing. My wife just came home with it. I watch a little later and either confirm or concede. Till then thanks for the civil convo. It so rare on these boards. lol.

[–] Shooter (112) 5 years ago

So he says they're gone, reduced to atoms. I used the stones to destroy the stones.

Thats why I think he just shrunk them. But I guess it is up to interpretation now. But I will concede.

[–] fc31 (6092) 6 years ago

I hate what they did with Hulk. He was so boring and did not really add anything to the story other than being a plot device that could us the gauntlet and survive.

Exactly. I guess you are starting to notice too. I mean all the plot devices just to keep the plot going.

[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of flaws with Endgame. I only disagreed with some of your criticism of Thanos; he was compelling only because of his power level and charisma. He was never a sympathetic villain.

[–] Volley (3440) 6 years ago

Do you have any theories on how Captain America was able to return the Soul Stone?

[–] fc31 (6092) 6 years ago

According to the directors Cap took the stone back to it's resting place Vormir and returned it to the red skull. I think it is more of a "take it and beat it" situation.

[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

I actually wish they would have taken a little more time to explain how he would return them without disrupting more of the timeline than they already did.

For example in when they went to New York in 2012 for the battle Loki disappeared with the tesseract (space stone) that would significantly change the events that took place after. Was Steve going to somehow return the tesseract to that time line, probably not he would have to return it to the 1970 with Howard Stark. Same thing for the power stone and Star Lord being knocked out. The soul stone actually seems to me to be the easiest to return at this point.

But the nature of the stones and of this form of time travel is difficult to get a fix on, they do a good job of making it feel logical but if you really start to think about it stuff doesn't add up.

[–] Sarmoviefan26 (1368) 6 years ago

I don’t think the girls scene was a forced Girl Power moment, it was more like an homage to the Heroines of the MCU.

And I think Wanda had a pretty good girl Power moment just fir her when she almost killed Thanos

[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

Wanda's moment was a good moment, I didn't even take it as a "girl power" moment. It was just a good character moment.

The scene when it was the all girl vs Thanos in such a chaotic battle with that many characters was something that they had to go out of the way to make happen. That is why it felt forced.

[–] Sarmoviefan26 (1368) 5 years ago

Then I agree that scene wasn’t very well portrayed but I don’t think that scene had a politically correct message. More like something good done not so well.

I think with that scene Marvel wanted pay an homage to all the women of the franchise but it looked like let’s just give them a nice pic and that’s it.
They could have done something with more meaning than just one nice photo in movement.

[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

Yeah I get that, maybe not exactly done for the politically correct heavy handed messaging but just a homage, feel good, idea that was executed poorly. It definitely came across as force at least to me.

But at the same time why do they have to single out just the women as a group for a homage gratuitous shot? Shouldn't they just give each individual character special moments? Such as they did for Nebula, Black Widow, and as you point out Wanda. The fact they went out of their way to give the all girl moment was almost like they thought, "okay we got the girl power moment out of the way so people won't complain about enough 'female empowerment' now we can get back to the actual movie". Which by any measure is pretty insulting to those characters, the actresses and perhaps even women as a whole. Like they don't get to be treated as individuals they only get a 'group' moment. That is why I did not like that; but loved the way especially Nebula was handled; powerful individual character moments

[–] Sarmoviefan26 (1368) 5 years ago

Yes totally an homage go wrong.
When I watched the film I kind of liked it and thought it was a very nice shot but now that I think about it latter it’s like yeah a shot that served for nothing.

And yes it would have been a nicer homage to have each one of them getting great bad ass moments instead of that shot.
Now maybe they did it in case they do the all female Avengers Movie, it was hint of a maybe we will give you the A Force film.

And ofcourse Marvel here is not saying but they are waiting to see what happens with Birds of Prey from DC if that film is a success Marvel will do their own thing.
Just like with Wonder Woman I feel like Marvel did go for their Captain Marvel plans thanks to the success of Wonder Woman so now if Birds of Prey is a hit Marvel will do A Force.

But they will say ohh we hinted that on Avengers EndGame.

[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

Perhaps my sensitivity to anything that appears to be politically motivated is too high. I do not like how politics is so embedded into entertainment now so any time I see something that could possibly be inspired by political grandstanding I find annoying.

I guess I am okay with political messaging as long as it is not heavy handed or beating over the head with its simplicity. But when it comes across as forced and lazy, like they do it just to appease certain groups, i find it robs away individuality and actual is insulting to my intellect and I actually get offended for the individual members of the targeted group. In this case for example, I feel like 'do you really think women are so dumb and easily fooled that a gratuitous female power shot like this will distract from the fact that marvel and superhero films in general are male dominated'. Like they know that Captain Marvel as an individual character is divisive and that all the fan favorites are the male character and the series has been lead by male characters so they through something like this in just for appeasement. It is cheap and obvious.

I hope they do make some actually good stand alone female lead marvel movies. Not Captain Marvel though, I find her smug and unlikeable. I am interested though in the Black Widow stand alone. Right now I would love to see a Nebula lead film.

[–] ManToTrust (1663) 5 years ago

I have not seen the Captain Marvel film yet, but are they intentionally making her as pretentiously smug and unlikable as they can?

No, that's just Brie Larson.

[–] DracTarashV2 (4497) 5 years ago

Dude is mad at girl power scene and Captain Marvel. In other news, water is wet. But yo.... that overused, HYPOCRITICALLY used and SAFE SPACE PC label. 🙄😆

Now translating the criticism directed at the strongest MCU hero and at that one Endgame moment with the powerful heroines of Marvel: My insecure self is pissed, I am ROYALLY PISSED that the unbackwards Marvel crew gave these superhero girls a heroic moment like this! You should’ve only shown my heroic men get unnecessary moments like this while letting them act as arrogant as they can be! Doesn’t matter how forced or unnecessary a powerful shining moment for my boys could be... just don’t let the girls act and shine like this, ever! And if any of them, particularly Captain Marvel, ever humorously punched out a fellow hero she doesn’t get along with... ESPECIALLY a white male hero... like Hulk did to Thor in Avengers 1, then that would be more PC AGENDA FEMINIST CRAP I DON’T SUPPORT! Man, and while I’ll pretend the lack of character development is what bothered me the most about certain awful female characters, thank the lord Captain Marvel didn’t get any more screen time cuz that would upset me and my tough bros even more! Cooties!! Gawd, this fragile POLITICALLY CORRECT incel movement. Cry me a river.

Making too many assumptions, am I? Yea right... looking at your butthurt mansplaining post, and it’s very hard to make a distinction between you and the numerous broken record anti-PC dudebros that have been throwing tantrums over the strongest hero in the MCU and Endgame’s (awesome) girl power moment for months. Ugh. Why must one even give these broken record bros the time of day? *sigh*

Anyway, thank you Marvel & Disney! You’re gonna bring more inclusion and diversity than ever before in future films, and those alt lame propagandists (some of these will pretend they’re being fair, unbiased and will deflate as usual — lol) who will find any excuse to criticize overdue things like this will keep being mad but luckily they won’t be paid attention by you. Agenda? That’s right, the anti-reactionary agenda and it is a beautiful thing that’s being welcomed by the majority of film goers (yes bro, there are studies to back this claim up). Needles to say, Captain Marvel and the KICK ASS Marvel girl power scene only infuriated certain bros like the OP (I can taste the salt). And though there may be no shortage of salty whincels these days, fortunately they do not represent the majority of audiences. Said whincels are the loudest PC bunch out there (“wa wa please keep things the way they used to be!!), sure, but the strongest? Hell no.

[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

So I suppose ignoring my praise of Nebula, Black Widow, Gamora and Scarlet witch are all going to go unnoticed by you? Much easier to make assumptions and generalization than to actual address a criticism with counter points as other posters here have done, leading to enjoyable discussions.

It makes sense you worship captain marvel you are as smug as she is. Aren't you the type of toxic person that ruined IMdB discussion boards.

BTW what makes you think I am a "dude"? kind of anti-pc of you to assume my gender based off of toneless text.