The overlords committed mass genocide for no good reason - Childhood's End (2015) Discussion

[–] spocktom 9 years ago

Well neither the Overlords or the Overmind started the process, which was meant to be natural evolution reaching the final stage for humanity. The other point to remember is that the final process of transferring the essence of the children into the Overmind created so much overspill of telekinetic energy that it actually ripped the earth apart. So perhaps knowing that this was the fate awaiting the remains of humanity, they chose to limit the number of people who would face an awful death.

In essence they made us comfortable before the inevitable end. You only need to take a trip down to your local palliative care hospice to understand that logic.

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[–] goosh69 9 years ago

That all seems patently absurd. Why not move the children offworld? Or why not, as they did with MILLIONS of animal species, move THE HUMANS off world? With their super advanced technology, they EASILY could have transported millions of humans to another planet.

I hated the overmind and overlords. They are evil beings. An entire planet full of trillions of living things can be wiped out so the overmind can...what? I find it impossible to believe that they could not simply have moved the children to mars or something. With their ultra advanced tech they could not terraform another planet or something? And we know their are possibly a billion or more earth like planets out there - and ACC thought this when he wrote this!

Defender of the weak, and enemy of the weak minded.

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[–] marty1968 9 years ago

Was it ever explained why humans were never allowed to reproduce, they all died in the 80 years Milo was gone?
Like goosh says, take the kids and leave humanity to go back to our normal

And why would the Overlords service the Overmind [basically the biggest enablers in the universe] what do they get out of it? Do they have a 'thing' about seeing sentient beings destroyed?

Does the Overmind do this so these societies won't compete with them when they naturally ascend... nothing natural about what happened to humanity in this.

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[–] Judger 9 years ago

I think that is an obvious plot hole.
The Overlords were clearly not malevolent.
Why couldn't they take the children to another unpopulated planet and stage the ascension without committing genocide in the process?

I was born in the house my father built

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[–] Quickblood 9 years ago

I don't think there was a genocide or did I miss something. Humanity ended naturally by giving birth to an evolved version of itself that abandons it's parents and begins the process of becoming a hive mind to join an overmind. By the time they consume the planet some 80 years later I assume the last of the previous generation should be long dead.

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[–] Judger 9 years ago

Sorry, this is a clear violation of the prime directive.

I was born in the house my father built

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[–] Quickblood 9 years ago

Sorry, this is a clear violation of the prime directive.

A violation Of the fictional Prime directive from Star Trek. I'm not even sure we'd actually follow the Prime Directive given the choice.

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[–] satansfist 9 years ago

That's like sterilizing all the great apes, or who knows how far back up the evolutionary chain, because humans (a next evolutionary step) evolved from those earlier species and left them behind.

I think humans would consider that genocide (or whatever the term would be for apes).

Instead, all of the different species at different steps of evolution continue to live and evolve, and none are intentionally ended just because humans evolved much further than they did.

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[–] Madeline5 9 years ago

The overlords by order of the Overmind intentionally came to earth. They "enabled" "midwifed" and made very favorable conditions (peace-no wars, no pollution, no technological innovation) for the mutating children, by creating unnatural (irony there) conditions on earth so that the next species of evolving human children would survive to join the Overmind. It unclear to me if (in the series) if the remaining humans were then suddenly MADE sterile, after enough mutated/evolved children were being nurtured/processed and protected for uploading to the overmind, that the Overmind decided, no overlap of this species of human with the Overmind species of evolved ) That seems like a lot of interference.

The human species (minus children) go extinct before its time. Maybe the evolutionary mutation process should or would have taken place over a much longer period of time.

Just thinking about how there was much overlapping of species (not counting cataclysmic events) as some evolved, leaving the former species behind.

Same theme as 2001: A Space Odyssey. The man-apes in the first early earth part of the story were starving and near to extinction before the monolith arrives and enables them with the tiny spark of "abstract thinking" to utilize tools/technology so they could evolve.

"There were gaps in Moon-Watcher's life now that he would never remember, when the very atoms of his simple brain were being twisted into new patterns. If he survived, those patterns would become eternal, for his genes would pass them on to future generations. It was a slow tedious business, but the crystal monolith was patient. Neither it, nor its replicas scattered across half the globe, expected to succeed with all the scores of groups involved in the experiment. A hundred failures would not matter when a single success could change the destiny of the world.--The man-apes must adapt, or they must die--like the greater beasts who had gone before them, and whose bones now lay sealed within the limestone hills. The tools they had been programmed to use were simple enough, yet they could change this world and make the man-apes its maters."--2001, A Space Odyssey, Arthur C. Clarke.

By human standards it took a long, long time, millions of years for species that overlapped each other to evolve, while others eventually went extinct.

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[–] willygordon789 9 years ago

What was wrong with them taking the kids and leaving the humans to carry on, produce more kids, then they would have a supply that would go on, to feed the overmind. obviously they couldnt take all the kids but the supply would be in place. but no, the hungry overmind destroys the species after its gorged on them. doesnt sound like a very smart overmind to me. DUHH much like cancer cells kill the host. stupid plot stupid book really, and a stupid series.

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[–] nyarlath 9 years ago

Does the Overmind do this so these societies won't compete with them when they naturally ascend... nothing natural about what happened to humanity in this.

You got it in one! You're seeing predation pure and simple.

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[–] Quickblood 9 years ago

You got it in one! You're seeing predation pure and simple.

I don't think I can agree with that, as far as I can tell it's a natural process that happens and they overlords interfere to stop us destroying ourselves during the change.

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[–] spocktom 9 years ago

That all seems patently absurd. Why not move the children offworld? Or why not, as they did with MILLIONS of animal species, move THE HUMANS off world? With their super advanced technology, they EASILY could have transported millions of humans to another planet.

I hated the overmind and overlords. They are evil beings. An entire planet full of trillions of living things can be wiped out so the overmind can...what? I find it impossible to believe that they could not simply have moved the children to mars or something. With their ultra advanced tech they could not terraform another planet or something? And we know their are possibly a billion or more earth like planets out there - and ACC thought this when he wrote this!

I can see your pov but, my friend, I didn't write the book or series so I am only surmising why Clarke wrote what he did.

Personally I would have like the earth and the remainder of humanity to be saved as well (that's why I really liked the character of Milo) and I think the terraforming idea is a good one BUT maybe the Overmind and Overlords believed that to leave mankind to develop along the path they were going (pollution, war, etc...) was an even crueller fate...who knows? Only Arthur knows/knew and he's already passed on.

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[–] goosh69 9 years ago

In some respects though, its karma or what not. Humans after all have farmed animals, tested on them, and wiped out a huge percentage of species. And to the OVerlords, we are but primitive apes. And to the overmind, the overlords are primitive.

Defender of the weak, and enemy of the weak minded.

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[–] kingramze 9 years ago

I think you misunderstand the relationship between the species. To the Overlords, WE are the superior species as we are able to ascend and become one with the Overmind (their master). The Overlords are to be pitied because their evolutionary path has reached a dead-end, so they will never ascend -- at least not without help. That's, in part, why they serve the Overmind. They are studying the ascension process closely in the hope of one day ascending themselves. That's why they were very glad to have a human stay behind and document the last moments of mankind's ascension. It was too dangerous for them to stay as the Earth was destroyed to record the final event.

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[–] the_cynical_one 9 years ago

This was one of the things that made no sense. Why would they need Milo to report back what's going on when they have the tech to record everything via that drone Milo was talking to on the surface?

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[–] Katrazzi 9 years ago

I thought your "sigh" meant something deep. Turns out you can't make sense of anything you say and have an attention span of a fly.
Yes, the Overlords started this stupid process that reached the end that makes no sense whatsoever. First, they turned the earthlings into a conflict free species. (And everybody knows no progress and development is possible without inner and outer opposing forces in a society). Yet somehow, the earthlings were developing and creating something while living in a silly and unnatural paradize. Then they impragnated a woman and created a queen freak that telepathically connected to the previously created children freaks to form a collective. Then, for some unnatural reason, it was the time for the freak collective to leave the earth and live their parents now incapable of breeding to slowly die out.
And all this in the name of what? Right, nothing at all.

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[–] Quickblood 9 years ago

Then they impragnated a woman and created a queen freak that telepathically connected to the previously created children freaks to form a collective.

I think they made the child realise what she was before her birth but I didn't get that they had any part in her creation or the creation of any of the kids.

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[–] lilmarkuk 9 years ago

nope sorry but you can not make up your own story to make it sound like it was decent written, it was not shown or said at all that they made the child realise before it was born so that did not happen

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[–] strkiller 9 years ago

Actually, yes, the overlords did appear to do something to Jennifer's mother while she lay sleeping before she ever realized she was pregnant. And then there is the scene from the party in South Africa where Karellen has the pregnant Amy place her hand over the what looks like an alien Quija board. He tells her (the unborn Jennifer) that she can stop fighting and that she cannot protect the earth.
After Amy finishes interacting with the device Karellen then proclaims "she is awake, and she understands".
Perhaps you were taking a restroom break during those two scenes.
But Karellen most definitely made contact with the yet to be born Jennifer in order to get her to understand what she was.
Note that Karellen did tell Ricky that the overlords were "facilitators" of the change that was coming.

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[–] spocktom 9 years ago

Strkiller, I don't think he (or she) can see your point (which is well made, by the way) because it seems their viewing of the show was quite superficial.

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[–] Quickblood 9 years ago

by spocktom

Strkiller, I don't think he (or she) can see your point (which is well made, by the way) because it seems their viewing of the show was quite superficial.

Is that about me?

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[–] Quickblood 9 years ago

by strkiller

Actually, yes, the overlords did appear to do something to Jennifer's mother while she lay sleeping before she ever realized she was pregnant.

They visited her & appeared to scan her but I'm not entirely sure they've interfered with her in that way. Of course they'd be looking for her, she's the most important member of the species. Looking at the show again it's deliberately presented to make us think that they're doing something sinister throughout otherwise why are they here?

And then there is the scene from the party in South Africa where Karellen has the pregnant Amy place her hand over the what looks like an alien Quija board. He tells her (the unborn Jennifer) that she can stop fighting and that she cannot protect the earth.

Yeah he tell's an unborn child to accept who & what she is but again no real evidence that they did anything to create her.

Perhaps you were taking a restroom break during those two scenes.

No I just watched the whole miniseries carefully and based my interpretation of those events on how everything panned out in the end. I don't think they did anything, I think we're supposed to think this is all their doing throughout till the end when it's kinda revealed that it's not.

In the end I think they are just what they said they were, midwives for the species change.

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[–] kingramze 9 years ago

We have a winner! :)

That's the twist. They are exactly what they say they are -- even though we're suspicious of their motives (especially given the way they look and how our religion(s) tell us we should treat beings with their appearance and/or technology).

They came to help us through a scary, emotional, dangerous, yet wonderful event. They came to make us as comfortable as possible as we gave birth to our next stage of evolution and to ensure we didn't destroy ourselves in the process.

It's not entirely altruistic as they serve the Overmind... and humans were about to become a part of that Overmind. They're sort of under orders to make sure the new addition is happy and healthy when it arrives.

But, the book does show that some of them at least have an ulterior motive. The Overlords have unfortunately come to an evolutionary dead-end and cannot ascend themselves. They are to be pitied because they can witness ascension, but never be a part of it. At least some of them are trying to learn all they can about the process in he hopes that one day their own species will be able to ascend.

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[–] goosh69 9 years ago

"They came to help us through a scary, emotional, dangerous, yet wonderful event."

Wow, you are an evil person. The mass extinction of ALL LIFE ON EARTH, not just Human life, is a "wonderful" event?

No. If the overlords or overmind wanted to make it "peacful", they'd use their [30,000 years more advanced than ours technology] to move the children to an uninhabited planet or some such. The idea that the next step in evolution means that EVERY SPECIES THAT CAME BEFORE plus the physical planet itself all get wiped out is sick and disgusting.

The Overlords also EXPLICITLY sterilized the normal humans. The whole thing reeks of evil the way that any human civilization would define evil.

And no other poster, NORMAL humans were not the "superior" species. Only the OTHER NEW human species was superior.

Defender of the weak, and enemy of the weak minded.

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[–] Halmyre 9 years ago

You don't really understand evolution, or anything else for that matter, do you?

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[–] goosh69 9 years ago

I understand that sentient beings deserve to live, and that just because some humans evolve does not mean that ALL life on Earth, sentient or not, must be destroyed. Just like now I think it is wrong that humans are wiping out species left and right. It's not ok even if they are "less intelligent" than us.

Defender of the weak, and enemy of the weak minded.

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[–] sfmar 9 years ago

Have you read the book? If not, I suggest you do.

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[–] goosh69 9 years ago

The show needs to stand on it's own. I don't care what happened in Iron Man #245 with respect to the MCU movies, because it has no bearing on the events of Marvel's the Avengers, etc. Nor do I care what happened Jayne Poole in the Fire and Ice books, because her character does not exist in the Game of Thrones TV show. It is also irrelevant that Starbuck was male in the original Battlestar Galactica, or that Scarlett O'hara had three children in the Gone With the Wind novel.

Defender of the weak, and enemy of the weak minded.

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[–] sfmar 9 years ago

The show needs to stand on it's own.

It can't and it doesn't - you'll get no argument from me about that. The screenplay is a horrible bastardization of Clarke's book.

I just take issue with those (and I'm not saying that includes you) who condemn the source material.

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[–] goosh69 9 years ago

That is fair. I can believe that the book is better. I have read some Clarke, just not this. I found him too technical and not a good writer of real humans (or aliens, even.) He is better at ideas than character IMO. But the show attempts to add lots more character development, and to me fails. And still leaves a lot of the science out of the science fiction.

Defender of the weak, and enemy of the weak minded.

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[–] maryrosenkranz 9 years ago

Yes, you are right. It comes from paying attention. Karellen didn't even know which woman it was until he saw her at the party. Then he "helped" her when they were at the ouija board.

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[–] jayspeedrt 9 years ago

This is another unfortunate, and unnecessary, change from the novel. In the book the Over-Lords do discover that the Greggson children will be the nucleus of the metamorphosis of human children. But Karellen never has a silly conversation with an unborn Jennifer or any such nonsense. The Overlords were studying the Greggson children, as they did not comprehend them.

"Jennifer is all" and children assembling outside the Greggson home; that's just more TV add-ons that shouldn't have been included in the mini-series.

Jennifer herself never has any special significance, other than she and her brother are the first to transform. Karellen himself shares the analogy of a nuclear reaction - there is always a FIRST nucleus that's involved in the chain-reaction, but there's no singular importance, or difference, in that first one - it just happens to be the first. Someone has to be first.

And then, like a chain reaction, the transformation of Jennifer and her brother spread to the rest of Earth's children.

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[–] goosh69 9 years ago

That makes more sense.

Defender of the weak, and enemy of the weak minded.

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[–] Quickblood 9 years ago

nope sorry but you can not make up your own story to make it sound like it was decent written, it was not shown or said at all that they made the child realise before it was born so that did not happen

Sorry but you're completely wrong. The whole point of the weird marble ouija board scene with Jennifer's mother was Karellen talking with to jennifer before she was born. He even says to her the following
"you know who you really are and what you are joined with"
"reveal yourself to me"
"You're trying to be a child but you cannot be a child knowing yourself as you do, accept
who you are"

by the end of the scene her brother just before he jumps from the top of the building he says "Jennifer, she's awake".

I can't really see any other way to interpret that scene.

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[–] spocktom 9 years ago

I thought your "sigh" meant something deep. Turns out you can't make sense of anything you say and have an attention span of a fly.
Yes, the Overlords started this stupid process that reached the end that makes no sense whatsoever. First, they turned the earthlings into a conflict free species. (And everybody knows no progress and development is possible without inner and outer opposing forces in a society). Yet somehow, the earthlings were developing and creating something while living in a silly and unnatural paradize. Then they impragnated a woman and created a queen freak that telepathically connected to the previously created children freaks to form a collective. Then, for some unnatural reason, it was the time for the freak collective to leave the earth and live their parents now incapable of breeding to slowly die out.
And all this in the name of what? Right, nothing at all.

I think you ought to read my other posts before you make bold statements about me not being able to make analytical statements about this series.

I used the sigh because you have started threads where all you did was basically troll the show and people who liked it. Now, of course, you are entitled to your opinion but you also have to accept that people might be pissed-off with your point of view.

As to your trolling...you started two threads with identical titles basically saying this series is absurd. To what end? You only need to express that opinion once...not go on a full-frontal attack against people who don't agree with you. Hence my "sigh". Capisce?

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[–] lilmarkuk 9 years ago

wel if people are peed off because of someones PERSONAL view then they are pretty sad people indeed..you included it seems

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[–] spocktom 9 years ago

People are perfectly entitled to be cross at someone else's opinion and vice-versa. By the way, before you insult someone for their point of view at least have the courtesy of punctuating and spelling correctly.

Here's what you wrote:

wel if people are peed off because of someones PERSONAL view then they are pretty sad people indeed..you included it seems

Here is how it should have been written:

"Well if people are peed off because of someone's PERSONAL view then they are pretty sad people indeed..you included, it seems."

Happy to help (and trying not to be too didactic but sometimes I can't resist).


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[–] Katrazzi 9 years ago

I did not make 2 threads. I have no idea why it was multiplied

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[–] kingramze 9 years ago

You fundamentally misunderstand the mini-series. Not to worry, it was a rushed mess. Read the book instead as it fills in many of the omissions of the series.

Humanity was about to ascend. This was going to happen with or without any intervention. The Overlords showed up to make the transition as peaceful and positive as possible. They're like midwives there to help an already very pregnant woman give birth to a child. In this analogy, the woman was already pregnant and was going to give birth no matter what -- the midwife is just there to make her comfortable and make sure the process goes smoothly and safely. They're also there to help encourage the process along.

The Overlords didn't start anything. They didn't impregnate anyone. They didn't MAKE the children have special powers. They're just there to help and to document the natural process of a species ascending to become one with the Overmind (the vast super-intelligent hive-mind of all the other intelligent species that ascended before.)

If the Overlords hadn't shown up, the exact same thing would have happened... only it would have been uglier, messier, likely taken longer, and more people would have gotten hurt during the process as children everywhere gained powers they didn't understand and couldn't control. It's even possible we might have blown ourselves up in nuclear war out of fear or desperation because we feared change and those that embraced the changes. We needed guidance so we wouldn't destroy ourselves when we inevitably started to ascend.

It was easier for the children of mankind to ascend by allowing them to be born in a world without war, famine, disease, and even aging. It eased their transition. The prevention of future children from being born was a way to end humanity on a positive note. There was no need for them to continue b/c they'd reached the pinnacle of evolution before ascension already. All that was left was for the last generation to die as the next ascended.

The Overlords did NOT destroy the earth. The ascended children destroyed it. The Overlords knew it was coming, which is why they basically made an ark and a zoo to preserve the species they knew would otherwise be destroyed along with the earth.

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[–] the_cynical_one 9 years ago

Thanks for giving us the book detail as I never read it and the series did a poor job of explaining it.

That said, then I'm really disappointed that's how it's explained in the book. To suggest that in one lifecycle human children will all be born with telekinetic, higher powers and that one will be the queen linking them all together is just silly IMHO. I would have preferred it to be the Overlords' doing, that they "enabled" this evolutionary step by tinkering with Jennifer while in Amy's womb. That explanation I can buy, in the context of science fiction/fantasy.

Also agree that as presented in the series, the idea of them bringing Milo back light years across the universe to check out Earth is a bit far fetched and also silly. Not sure if that was the same in the book, but I have to believe it was done in a more believable fashion.

Also not sure why, as others have stated, they had to sterilize everyone and blow the earth up. Seems a bit much as they could have taken the children to another, dead planet/moon and done the same thing, leaving the humans to go along their merry way (albeit sad given their children would be taken away)

Anyway, I'm guessing the book is/was a lot better than the series. Not sure I'll read it but I might someday.

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[–] corwin111 9 years ago

Well it was weakly implied in the movie and more strongly in the book that the Overmind created humanity and pretty much all the sentient races it harvests, or at least had a hand in them being sentient in the first place. That humanity's entire purpose was to produce de-facto brain cells for the Overmind.

And of course it would seem "evil" from our point of view. It is one of the oldest metaphysical questions - if there is a creator of all, does he need to comply with his creations' concepts of morality or is he the highest moral authority? If the scales are shifted - is morality ultimately objective or subjective? That sort of thing.

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[–] Quickblood 9 years ago

Well it was weakly implied in the movie and more strongly in the book that the Overmind created humanity and pretty much all the sentient races it harvests, or at least had a hand in them being sentient in the first place. That humanity's entire purpose was to produce de-facto brain cells for the Overmind.

Interesting prospective. I don't really see the Overmind as evil or it harvesting sentient races. I don't really understand what the overmind is but I suppose how could we. As far as I can tell your species evolves and if you survive and leave your physical form you become part of the hive mind, which seems cool to those that can join but the process is cruel to those that can't

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] darkness_surroundz 9 years ago

why? we do it everyday-especailly the Jews to the Palestinians

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[–] goosh69 9 years ago

And do you think that is right or wrong? Clearly you think it is wrong, so why even ask such a stupid question? I am saying genocide is wrong. You think genocide is wrong. Stop being a moron and argue with someone who disagrees with you.

Defender of the weak, and enemy of the weak minded.

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[–] srb-3 9 years ago

The overlords committed mass genocide for no good reason

The Overmind did. The Overlords just watched and let it happen. That's the book, which I didn't care for.

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[–] vchristinakis 9 years ago

my theory is that the Overmind feeds on ascended beings + energy from the planets

it sends its army when a civilization is on verge to succeed interstellar travel as Karelian said

uses the earth as a farm that none leaves and gives the "animals" a high quality life so to get the best quality "food"

in the end nothing is left

the overlord are deceived that the beings are ascended but in reality they are consumed, if they knew the real purpose of the overmind they wouldnt be so effective to their jobs

everything human race created (with the exception of milos music) was destroyed because it doesnt make a difference to the belly of the overmind....

think... if humans survived somehow they would want revenge from the overmind and that is not acceptable

pure evil no doubt

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[–] goosh69 9 years ago

Like Galactus. Could be.

Defender of the weak, and enemy of the weak minded.

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[–] srb-3 9 years ago

Like Galactus. Could be.

Doesn't matter. The Overmind does what it does.

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