But plenty of male only scenes. If you're unfamiliar with the bechdel test, it basically means any scene with just women. Two or more females talking with no men present.
Flunked.
Didn't know the Bechdel test was something a film could pass or fail.
So we may have to evaluate this movie on just its artistic merit.
Totally agree!
Sure, but that's not the point which was that this movie surprisingly fails the Bechdel test. FTR, it requires that two female characters have at least one meaningful discussion on anything other than the men. It's that last clause that trips up so many movies. Bechdel test passed (http://www.imdb.com/keyword/bechdel-test-passed/?ref_=fn_kw_kw_2) and failed (http://www.imdb.com/keyword/bechdel-test-failed/?ref_=fn_kw_kw_3) are IMDB keywords. check them out.
shareIt has the word "test" in it, so obviously failing is an option. Your ignorance is showing again.
I can't find merit in a movie factory (Hollywood) that deliberately avoids focusing on just women because of some incredibly sexist misconception that women aren't interested enough to engage an audience's attention for an entire scene. Make no mistake, it is done on purpose. Film students are taught to not have women speak too long without a man involved. The peno-centric, patriarchal premise which all movies are built on assumes that a scene amongst women only has no merit. Men can't pay attention to women who are fully clothed for very long. I'm not sure which gender this is more offensive to, but it should be a concept rejected by all of society at once.
*interesting enough
shareIt has the word "test" in it, so obviously failing is an option.
My assertions are not bigoted and I can and did substantiate them. I could list concrete numbers of films that fail the test, yet have plenty of scenes with just males. Again, this film is centered on a woman. There's sexism going on and not from my end.
shareI don't want to get into the fray here, but I see the film more about the lengths people will do to protect those they love. In this case, they are the men, who are protecting FFJ's dream. One might see them as being enablers, but she was an seriously ill woman whose lifespan had already passed what it might have been had they not been there for her.
And we she did see FFJ speaking with her society friends---as someone further down on the board has mentioned. As I recall, the "Bechdel Test" only requires two named female characters to speak to each other about a topic other than men/romance. This was accomplished: they talked about music.
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Never say never...
Thanks Jennie. I think that's all that needs to be said.
shareGranted I only saw the film once, so I might've missed a scene. However, I seem to recall one of the men being in all scenes. Even if two women exchanged a sentence, men were present. Also, were the women named characters? The maid had a name and FFJ did address her, but the husband was close in toe.
shareSad ravings from a rabid anti-male sexist who makes bigoted assertions she can't substantiate, with no concern for justice or reason.
Just like recognizing the world is mostly led by white men makes someone a racist.
How is saying a movie failed the Bechdel Test…makes [sic] someone "anti male"?Don’t know why you ask, since I never said it did. But a comment like Jupiter’s “Men can't pay attention to women who are fully clothed for very long” is anti-male.
Also, you're only assuming the OP is a woman. I guess that's based on your limited view of genders.
You misinterpreted my statement about men not being able to pay attention to women if they're fully clothed. That was sarcasm on my part, and loosely paraphrased explanations that screenwriters have given as an excuse for not having women interact with each other for too long. They blame it on men, saying their attention span is ailing when it comes to women on screen. They subconsciously assume they're talking about their period or Kim Kardashian and stop paying attention to the scene, so pertinent plot information is rarely exchanged between two women unless the subject is a main male character. Anyway, this is all getting awful involved and it's something that you could totally overlook if you so choose, but if you pay attention to film after film it becomes impossible to deny.
So again, my assertions about attention span were sarcasm and not something I believe. I even said "not sure which gender that's more offensive to". I don't consider myself anti male, though I am pro-female. I believe that women are given fewer scenes in movies simply because men find women boring and possibly lacking in credibility. In short, they (writers, directors, producers-- mostly male though that's finally changing) simply have more interest in stories that they can relate to, that focus on them. It's a simple explanation and that's my theory.
Film students are taught to not have women speak too long without a man involved.
Yes, screen writers are included in film students.
You're also correct that they're mostly male and perhaps this is indeed a reason they "shy away from" writing dialogue for female characters. There are many reasons. Some do it deliberately. Some do it u wittingly. Some try and fail so they rewrite. Many reasons... but in any event there is a problem and it needs to be fixed. One fix is to have more female writers and directors. This shift is already taking place. However, for whatever reason many female centric films still have at least one scene with only men. For instance, Trainwreck. I have no problem with films being geared toward or focusing on one gender more than another but would like to see more balance.
Florence speaks to her female society friends at breakfast and to her maid. So it passes.
Defender of the weak, and enemy of the weak minded.
I think men were still present, unlike several scenes between all men in which women weren't present.
shareI looked up "Bechtel Test" on the internet and this is what it said:
A work of fiction features at least two women who talk to each other about something other than a man. The requirement that the two women must be named is sometimes added.
Okay then I'll slightly change the intonation of this thread to say that that even a film with a title female character doesn't have any scenes with just women, while there's at least 3 scenes with just men. The point stands.
shareSo what? people should stop watching this?
~Hasta la vista..Baby
But plenty of male only scenes. If you're unfamiliar with the bechdel test, it basically means any scene with just women. Two or more females talking with no men present.
"and her female friends were mostly socialites with whom conversations were at a minimum"
Gee.. I wonder why. If you want to believe that it's incidental that the female interaction is kept at a minimum, you're more than welcome. The fact is that it's deliberate. Scripts strategically AVOID having women talk "too much." This isn't an issue with this film in particular, though it must've been extra challenging to write the titular character out of so many scenes, while the interaction between men only was abundant. This is a theme in Hollywood. They've managed to brainwash you into thinking that's just how it worked out. You say they shouldn't have to try extra hard to create dialogue between two female characters... how very silly of you. They tried extra hard to avoid it.
The fact is that it's deliberate. Scripts strategically AVOID having women talk "too much."
http://thehathorlegacy.com/why-film-schools-teach-screenwriters-not-to-pass-the-bechdel-test/
THAT is your only “proof”?!? ROTFL! An accusation by a bigot who writes articles entitled “Creepy Entitled Men” and vomits out her sexist hate with prose like this:
[Middle-aged white men] just need a Mommy figure keeping them in line in order to achieve even marginal functionality…Don’t I know my life is all about their deep inadequacies? Their pathetic, neurotic need to stand on top of a woman to make themselves feel halfway human?
Because something can only be factual if those accused admit it? Good thing OJ Simpson is innocent and, just so you don't whine "sexism! Bigotry!," I'll include it's also a good thing Casey Anthony didn't murder her daughter. Right? Right.
Thanks for the assumptions and conjecture regarding what my hypothetical reaction would be if certain things were to happen . Let's get one thing straight -- you don't know me.
Just because it's a deliberate choice to limit women's lines doesn't mean Hollywood is attempting to brainwash anyone. The more natural reason would be that Hollywood believes that the target audience doesn't want to hear too much talking from actresses, even if that is not what they say or think they want.
share"Good morning folks! What are we offended by today?"
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If you walk a mile in my shoes, you will end up at a bar!
If you're unfamiliar with the bechdel test, it basically means any scene with just women. Two or more females talking with no men present.No, it doesn't. You've gotten a misguided idea of the Bechdel Test. The only requirements are:
Soooo one line of Florence asking Kitty the maid where the key is and barely even stopping as she walks past her while St. Claire is still very much in the frame constitutes passing the test?? That's crap. That doesn't assess anything. Not when we have a scene of St. Claire and Mr. McMoon sitting idly having a lengthy conversation for more than 1 scene
To be fair, their conversations were about FFJ, so by the reverse bechdel test for men arguably it wouldn't pass. Anyway call it whatever you want. The bechdel test proper or just straight up sexism in filmmaking. I'm tired of not seeing SCENES between two women in films. Not LINES...but SCENES.
Soooo one line of Florence asking Kitty the maid where the key is and barely even stopping as she walks past her while St. Claire is still very much in the frame constitutes passing the test?? That's crap. That doesn't assess anything. Not when we have a scene of St. Claire and Mr. McMoon sitting idly having a lengthy conversation for more than 1 scene
To be fair, their conversations were about FFJ, so by the reverse bechdel test for men arguably it wouldn't pass. Anyway call it whatever you want. The bechdel test proper or just straight up sexism in filmmaking. I'm tired of not seeing SCENES between two women in films. Not LINES...but SCENES.
In a recent interview with Cosmopolitan (conducted by Dissolve contributor Kate Erbland), Bechdel mentioned some films she’s loved recently that don’t pass the test: Quentin Tarantino’s Jackie Brown, which she just saw for the first time, the more recent Wes Anderson adventure The Grand Budapest Hotel, and the groundbreaking time-travel story About Time. “I’m not a stickler about the Test—if I were, I wouldn’t see many movies,” Bechdel told Cosmo.
https://thedissolve.com/news/3285-bechdel-test-originator-alison-bechdel-given-a-mac/
“Asked if she wanted to further edit or clarify the test, she was firm and to the point: “No. I think it’s a nice, simple metric.” That may be annoying to the people who’ve been analyzing it at sites like BechdelTest.com, suggesting additions ranging from simple (the women should be actual named characters; the conversation should last at least 30 seconds) to baroque (there shouldn’t be a man present in the scene, and a man shouldn’t be named or referenced in any way during the conversation, or the whole thing is invalidated, no matter how long it is). But then again, if it was a 30-item list of requirements, it’s much less likely that the Bechdel Test would have endured as it has.share
https://thedissolve.com/news/3285-bechdel-test-originator-alison-bechdel-given-a-mac/