MovieChat Forums > Elle (2016) Discussion > Is it self-evident to accept prayer in y...

Is it self-evident to accept prayer in your home?


I'm gonna address another sensitive subject in this thread and this time the subject of religion and prayer, especially in the context of hosting a dinner with friends, family and a few strangers in your own home and one of the guests you don't really know asks if he can say Grace with everyone before starting the meal. Would you accept that?

What do you think is more appropriate in such a situation, whose right supersedes the other's? On one side that person's right to express her spirituality and faith at the risk of imposing it upon others who might not agree, or on the other, the host's right to create the mood and evening he wants to in his own home at the risk of impeding on other people's freedom and inclinations?

Is it appropriate to ask if you are the believer? Is it appropriate to refuse if you are the non-believer? Do the circumstances of the gathering have an influence on the answer, should we be more lenient if it happens to be on Christmas? Moreover, if we decide that an atheist has to allow a theist to say Grace at his table, does that mean that we should grant the atheist the same right if he shares a meal with believers and accept that no one says Grace because that's his wish? If not, why not? Difficult questions...

Being an atheist myself, i think the appropriate thing to do for a believer in that situation is to take it upon himself, say nothing and do his thing on the side. However, i also think it would be inappropriate for me to refuse that simple thing to a believer if the question should ever be raised. That said, even if i would accept the behavior at my table (not without a grunt), i would still make it clear that this opens up the matter to criticism and potential reactions, at least on my part. If you want to share your superstitions with everyone at my table, you will have to accept that i share my "superstition" with the table too, namely rationalism and critical thinking. Isn't that only fair?

Then again, wouldn't that completely destroy the spirit and mood of the gathering, especially if it is on Christmas? Not for me obviously, but for whoever deeply associates the holiday with its so-called Judeo-Christian roots and Jesus himself. However, if it was only among close friends and family, it wouldn't be an issue because they would know me and what to expect from me and i would know the theist in question and what to expect; in that situation, there would be no problem to begin with because there would be nobody to vex or brush the wrong way. My conundrum applies mainly (only?) to an event of yours where it is a relatively unknown +1 who makes the request, such as in this movie.

So as you can see, i think it is a very subtle and difficult question and no matter the answer, it seems to me that someone's right has to be impeded on either way. Now, i should mention that i do believe in everyone's right to express their own religion and spirituality in spite of potential social reprobation, but i also do believe in my own right to not have to endure this kind of display of religious fervor, especially in my home. Thus, if I'm willing to renounced on my right to not have beliefs pushed upon me, you should be willing to renounce on your right to not have your beliefs challenged, if there ever was such a right - you see what i mean.

At last, i should add that there's obviously no right answers to those questions, nobody is wrong and everybody is right and/or nobody is right and everybody is wrong and at the end of the day, i think most of one's answer will hinge upon whether or not one is a believer himself. Doesn't matter, what do you think?


People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs

reply

I think one thing missing from your question is the knowledge that the neighbor's wife knew what was going on. I think there's some camouflage going on, but in any case there is a level of complexity there that goes beyond saying grace and putting midnight mass on.

Having said that, my answer is that it's not anti-social to ask people to pause for a moment to express thoughts of appreciation for food and the people gathered to eat it, and it's not inappropriate to ask to put midnight mass on TV at a *Christmas* party (given that no one is forced to watch it, and no one was).

:-)

--
GEORGE
And all's fair in love and war?
MRS. BAILEY
[primly] I don't know about war.

reply

I must say I am slightly intrigued about how you could watch a film like this and have this particular issue stand out enough to make a topic about it. Not saying that it is wrong, just fascinating.

And when it comes to your actual question: if someone wants to pray at my house before dinner they are free to do so as long as they don't mind that I (or possibly others as well) won't join in. I'm definitely not religious, but I don't mind people who want to express their views in such a way, nor would I feel the need to start lecturing them about the subject as long as the person doesn't try to make others feel guilty about their beliefs. That would be when I have a problem with the issue.

Shoving atheism down religious people's throats is just as wrong as shoving religion down non-believers' throats. The fact that I don't believe in a god doesn't mean I have the right to disrespect others' beliefs and/or traditions, no matter how silly they might seem to me.

reply

I am an atheist and I don't feel offended by others religious performances, which seems to be a premise in your post.

I would behave like in the movie. The neigbhour did not demand others participation. And it was a brief moment of prayer. Then she was watching the mass while everyone else did whatever they wanted. So why make a fuss?

reply

As an atheist or rather agnostic I would not mind, either, if someone wanted to say a prayer at a dinner to which I invited them. I would listen and wait politely that is what a cultured human being is supposed to do. It took about 20 seconds.

reply

The real point of her saying grace is to elucidate her character. It's important to keep the context in mind. If we were in Tennessee, it probably wouldn't be that unusual if somebody asked to say grace at dinner. But we're in France, which is secular and "post-Christian." It's interesting to see the reactions of the other dinner guests when she does this. She is clearly being marked as neurotically obsessed with religion. Not only does she say grace, but she turns on Christmas mass on the TV. And she travels off to Spain to walk barefoot with the pope! And she has a nativity display in her yard with life-size statues (we see the movers carrying them away in the final reveal-all scene). It's pretty clear that there's something strange going on between her and her husband Patrick, which probably is somehow involved with religion.

reply

In this movie the guest asked permission and it was granted by the host. I think there isn't any discussion where this scene is concerned.

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man..."

reply

I'm sorry, I just find this ridiculous. Who cares? Who would try to stop someone from praying? If someone taking a moment of silence at the dinner table is this big of a deal I think you have an axe to grind that has nothing to do with anyone praying.

reply

If a guest wanted to say grace at a Christmas Eve dinner, I think that would be fairly normal and hardly offensive to an atheist host who - after all - invited you to celebrate Christmas.

reply

Obviously, saying grace means something and is important to the believer. Obviously, it means nothing and is not important to the atheist. The kind, friendly thing to do with someone you invited into your home would be to allow them to say the grace that in no way infringes on your atheism. You certainly don't have to participate (but how would it hurt you to participate anyway, since you don't believe?). Someone saying grace is really not pushing their beliefs on you, any more than you're pushing your beliefs on the users of imdb with your post.

Anyway, Rebecca asked the assembled company whether anyone minded if she said grace before she did it.

reply

The scene also got my attention as I had that problem a while ago. Now, for and atheist I suppose it's just simpler, you just ignore it and let the person do his thing. In my case however, the person and I had conflicting religious views, so I wouldn't allow it.

I too believe that every person has the right and freedom to believe whatever they want. But on that example, if it's in my house, I can't allow someone to represent everyone present in prayer based on a belief that is not my own. Why? Simply put, if you believe in something you HAVE to take that as the truth, and if you do that, why would you allow falsehood?

Anyway, that's just my view.

reply

But on that example, if it's in my house, I can't allow someone to represent everyone present in prayer based on a belief that is not my own.


If you don't mind me asking, are you from the U.S.? Part of this might be a cultural difference in terms of how people view the roles of host/guest and being in your own/someone else's home. In many European cultures (France isn't the most prominent example of this but I'll go with it anyway) people take great pride in being great hosts whenever someone comes over and are willing to do many things to please the guest which (I think) Americans might have a problem with. I get the feeling that in the USA there is more emphasis on the importance of the host than there is on the guest. You could say that in some European countries the guest is the one who chooses which TV channel everyone (guests, hosts) will watch and in the US it's the host's decision. In the film this applies to the prayer and the mass, the host wants to please and respect the guest so she allows her to do what she wants regardless of the host's own views.

reply

I'm from Brazil and here the rule is also to let the guest as confortable as possible and prioritize his choices.

But the prayer matter is another thing altogether, it was simply a unfortunate moment.

reply