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Does the twist in the end make sense to you? If so, how? (Spoiler)


Why would a Nazi go hunt another Nazi and then kill himself? What does it take for a Jew to convince him to do that?

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I think Max (Martin Landau's character) knew what he was doing when he met Zev for the first time. He saw him as a former SS guard who was posing as a Holocaust survivor. But he was also looking for "Rudy Kurlander".

Zev has Alzheimer's at the beginning of the film and we assume had it for some time. Max might have thought Zev would not likely be charged because of his disease. So when Zev's wife died, Max sent him on his journey to find Rudy, knowing the two would recognize each other. I think the shock of Zev finding out who he really was led to him killing himself, or at least revealing to the world who he and Rudy were.

At the end I wonder why, despite his disease he didn't remember he was living a lie - unless he was living it so long he forgot his past.

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“We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." -- Kurt Vonnegut

**SPOILERS***


I think it's entirely possible that someone who has been living a lie for so long that they start to mix truth with fiction. And as you get older and the memories get hazier, it's not difficult to mistake one for the other. It seems like Zev's dementia was pretty strong so Max took advantage of it. It was ingenious.

Although it was SO HARD to see Christopher Plummer as the bad guy b/c I just adore him.

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People can convince themselves of all kinds of things, particularly if they think that they have to in order to save their lives. Westward, Zev was bad, but by the time of the movie, he has become good.

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Here's another interpretation. I think Zev knew what he did and was full of remorse (given away by the way he says sorry and cries to the homosexual). Max found him at the retirement home, recognized him and had a tough conversation with him. He must have convinced Zev that the only way to do penance was to kill his collaborator (Kurlander). Zev promised Max that he'd do it after his wife's death. But when his wife died, dementia set in. So Max altered the story (saying they both were in camp together) to get Zev to keep his promise. Maybe Max thought it'd be harder to convince Zev that he's a mass murderer. Plus, it's easier with the new story, since Zev has been living as a Jew. As Zev starts the hunt, he probably realizes the truth much earlier than in the climax, but continues anyway in order to keep his promise.

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My dad died from Alzheimer's so I know dementia/AD very well. All cases are different, just generally in the same ball park. Zev did not do what you said, he just simply and finally "remembered" at the end his real earlier life due to the tips and hints and missing pieces of his memory puzzle that finally triggered his real memory of who he was and what he did. Dad did this kind of thing all the time, until even that was gone.

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Exactly.

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I always thought that people with dementia remembered things that were in their long term memory but not in their short term memory so I found it surprising that he didn't remember his time at Auschwitz.

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Plummer is getting good at playing bad guys late in life. Have you seen, "All the Money in the World"?

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At the end I wonder why, despite his disease he didn't remember he was living a lie - unless he was living it so long he forgot his past.


That was my main problem with the movie. At some point he would have remembered he was an SS guard, not a holocaust survivor.

Mother is the name for God on the lips & hearts of all children -Eric D. Raven

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That was my main problem with the movie. At some point he would have remembered he was an SS guard, not a holocaust survivor.

I think Max was counting on that. You could even say that the main purpose of his plan was to force Zev to remember and confront the truth about himself. If Zev killed the other Nazi in the process, so much the better.

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[deleted]

^ this

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It did for me, but I wish they hadn't gone for a surprise ending. Without the twist ending, the film would have been like some sort of dementia Memento, with nazis. To me the whole thing felt a little contrived.

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They kept the suspense up (low key, but definitely there) for the whole movie and even managed a surprising ending.

It's a movie, so it was "contrived," but I gotta say it didn't SEEM contrived to me. I thought the movie was very effective in telling its story very well.

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It did for me, but I wish they hadn't gone for a surprise ending. Without the twist ending, the film would have been like some sort of dementia Memento, with Nazis. To me the whole thing felt a little contrived.


Agreed. There are worse twist endings but this movie didn't need one.

We try but we didn't have long
We try but we don't belong...


-Hot Chip (Boy from School)

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This is the whole point though, a Nazi wasn't hunting another Nazi. Because his remorse and guilt for the events of the War and because of his dementia he didn't even know he was a Nazi. He'd changed his life so much that he had built up a whole other back story in his mind to block out the horrors of his youth and what he had done.

Therefore, it was very easy for the old Jewish man in the care home to rationalise him hunting down 'Otto'. Max Rosenbaum knew what would happen when Zef met the other Nazi and he masterminded the whole thing.

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The twist doesn't hold up for me because Landau's character could have easily exposed Zev for who he was. And would have. There are many organizations today who will authenticate someone accused of being a nazi. Why send Zev on a wild goose chase where he might or might not make it to the final Nazi. Zev could have suffered some fatal mishap at any point and would never have had that moment of self realization. I simply don't buy that Landau's character would chance Zev making it from point A to B at his age simply as a slow revealing punishment so he could learn about himself. A high profile arrest at their retirement home would have been the safer and logical way to go.

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Landau's character had nothing to lose. He knew he had no chance of tracking down Kurlander himself so why not use dementia-ridden Zev/Otto to get him? Worst case scenario, Zev/Otto fails and the truth about who he was cones out anyway.

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If he was a guard in Nazi Germany then every time he took down his pants he'd see that he wasn't Jewish. More than a little far-fetched.

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I'm sure he thought of that when he started posing as a Jew, and took the necessary steps to avoid discovery (snip, snip).

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If he was a guard in Nazi Germany then every time he took down his pants he'd see that he wasn't Jewish. More than a little far-fetched.
Fixable to live a lie after some discomfort. Some people, who aren't like this, 'start over' with facial surgery to create a new identity. Only thing is, you can't stop being somebody.

GFW

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Why send Zev on a wild goose chase where he might or might not make it to the final Nazi. Zev could have suffered some fatal mishap at any point and would never have had that moment of self realization.


I really had to think my way through this as well.

As far as the "wild goose chase," I have come to believe that Max genuinely did not know which Rudy Kurlander was really Sturm. That being the case, then the only true ruse was telling Zev he was looking for Otto Wallish instead of telling him that he was really looking for Strum. I also go back to the fact that Max seemed really unsure Zev was correct when he ruled out the first Kurlander.

Still, like you, it was my biggest problem with this story. Why send Zev to find Otto Wallisch when Max already knew who the real Otto is? Why not send Zev to find someone named Sturm since that was his target all along? I can’t imagine the number of ways this plan could have gone wrong.

If I discard the laws of probability, I believe Max was betting the whole farm on that moment when Zev tries to force Sturm into admitting he is Otto, which instead turns into the revelation, "I am not Otto, you are. No one murdered your family, we committed the murders together…."

Whereas if Zev had been searching for Sturm, who turned out to be the fourth Kurlander and the latter acknowledged he was Sturm, then Zev could have shot him before his own identity came into the conversation.



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[deleted]

If I discard the laws of probability, I believe Max was betting the whole farm on that moment when Zev tries to force Sturm into admitting he is Otto, which instead turns into the revelation, "I am not Otto, you are. No one murdered your family, we committed the murders together…."

Whereas if Zev had been searching for Sturm, who turned out to be the fourth Kurlander and the latter acknowledged he was Sturm, then Zev could have shot him before his own identity came into the conversation.


Yup. That was exactly it.

We try but we didn't have long
We try but we don't belong...


-Hot Chip (Boy from School)

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Why would a Nazi go hunt another Nazi and then kill himself? What does it take for a Jew to convince him to do that?
Because he remembered what a horrific thing he did after living a lie for all that time so couldn't live with himself. Once the other man was identified the pieces began to fit but I was still taken off guard.

Does the twist in the end make sense to you? If so, how?

It makes perfect sense but I was so shocked! I was expecting a melodrama about how remembering should be forgotten sort of like in Railway Man. I didn't see this coming.

Very well done. And his 'friend' manipulated him all along using his dementia as a tool. Granted the revenge angle had to taste sweet but it won't bring his family back.

This would make a great Criminal Minds episode.

GFW

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Here's what I can say. My grandfather had Alzheimer's. He was lucky to die from a brain bleed instead of living another 5 years. He was in his mid-nineties.

He never forgot the old hand-eye movements, handling tools, a weapon, fabrication, etc; But he forgot who almost everyone was. He would refer to me as that "big guy in the living room" to my grandmother. He never forgot my grandmother, always kissed her good night, and he never forgot how to operate equipment. However, a disreputable person could easily have implanted a false memory. Thus the letter in the movie. My grandfather would often confuse his memories with those of others.

Christopher Plummer did an unbelievable job. He acted almost exactly like my grandfather did at the end. Always needing to be updated every few minutes if he wasn't focused, but once he got going, he keep could keep on track based on what he was told.

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Here's what I can say. My grandfather had Alzheimer's. He was lucky to die from a brain bleed instead of living another 5 years. He was in his mid-nineties.

He never forgot the old hand-eye movements, handling tools, a weapon, fabrication, etc; But he forgot who almost everyone was. He would refer to me as that "big guy in the living room" to my grandmother. He never forgot my grandmother, always kissed her good night, and he never forgot how to operate equipment. However, a disreputable person could easily have implanted a false memory. Thus the letter in the movie. My grandfather would often confuse his memories with those of others.

Christopher Plummer did an unbelievable job. He acted almost exactly like my grandfather did at the end. Always needing to be updated every few minutes if he wasn't focused, but once he got going, he keep could keep on track based on what he was told.

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Ofcourse it makes sense...if you pay attention to the film.

Cake or death? Hmmmm I choose cake please.

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