MovieChat Forums > Bridge of Spies (2015) Discussion > Great movie until I read first trivia

Great movie until I read first trivia


The question: was Donovan a CIA secret agent or not?

The way it was portraying in the movie he is definitely not, just a lawyer who was trusted to arrange high level negotiations between two super powers. Just like that.

But that's definitely a stretch. He worked in CIA predecessor, he had negotiations with Castro, he wrote letters to Abel "wife" for nine months.

It's doubtful he was just a naive lawyer. And if he wasn't concept of the movie became really hypocritical.

Until I read about Donovan I really enjoyed the movie. Great cinematography, production design and performances.

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Yes, he was previously from OSS, helped in the creation of CIA and still held a commander rank at the time of the movie events.

And I agree, hypocritical is the least bad thing we can say about this movie. It is pure US propaganda.

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Can you please elaborate on how Bridge of Spies is 'pure US propaganda'?

I personally didn't see anything of a sort.





Never defend crap with 'It's just a movie'
http://www.youtube.com/user/BigGreenProds

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Worth noting: the guy you're responding to apparently isn't able to distinguish between James Donovan (who's in the movie) and William "Wild Bill" Donovan (who was a different person, was over 30 years older than the guy in the movie, and wasn't even still alive at the time of the U2 incident).

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People really do see things from their own viewpoint, don't they.

They will even see someone as a completely different person if it suits their agenda.

I didn't really expect a reply. It's like when someone criticized a film for being 'manipulative' and I ask them to cite me one - only one - example of a film that is NOT manipulative. No one has ever replied with an example. EVER.




Never defend crap with 'It's just a movie'
http://www.youtube.com/user/BigGreenProds

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[deleted]

Which 'truth'? That James Donovan was a CIA agent???




Never defend crap with 'It's just a movie'
http://www.youtube.com/user/BigGreenProds

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[deleted]

I think we're getting buried in something akin to double negatives here. Or, possibly, complex irony.

It was Rodrigo-whatever who saw James Donovan (the guy in the movie) as a completely different person (Bill Donovan), in order to fit his "truth" (the guy in the movie was actually a CIA agent and a founder of the CIA, and thus the movie wildly twisted the real story).

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It's entirely possible that Pryor was working for the CIA too, perhaps without even knowing it.

CIA penetration of the American National Students Association in the 1950s and 1960s was exposed in 1967. The book Patriotic Betrayal explains "how the CIA turned the National Students Association into an intelligence asset during the Cold War, with students used — sometimes wittingly but usually unwittingly — as undercover CIA agents inside America and abroad"

In the film Pryor is depicted as being arrested while visiting his girlfriend while the wall was being built. In reality he was not in Germany when the wall went up, and while most people not involved in the military or intelligence would steer well clear of Berlin at this volatile time, he not only made the effort to go to East Berlin after the wall was up, but did so in order to visit the house of a "defector".

The "defector" was likely working for the CIA too, and Pryor was perhaps sent to make sure there were no incriminating or secret documents left lying around. Whatever the reason, despite hundreds or thousands of people fleeing East Berlin at this time, the "defector" Pryor visited was significant enough for the Stasi (not just the regular police) to be watching their house, and they arrested Pryor when he showed up there.

Pryor's Stasi file states that another American named him as working for the CIA. It could be they were just telling the Stasi what they wanted to hear, or it could be that Pryor was one of the CIA's many assets in the American student community at the time.

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Well, it's going even worse.

Poor Steven, why they didn't make just fiction story with different names, whatever. What the need in bending the truth?

These facts are destroying the movie making it just artistically high level propaganda.

Glad Clint directed "American Sniper" instead of Spielberg, would have been a similar movie.

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This is much more a film about one man's insistence to act nobly in the face of US near-sightedness and fear. While the government was keen to bend every rule one man held up ideas and morals to withstand the perversions of justice that repeatedly occurred during that period. It's actually quite critical of how the US wanted to act - revealing the ingrained hypocrisy of a nation claiming to give a man justice when all they wanted was to showboat their 'ideals'. It took a good man to ensure that those ideals were upheld - regardless of whether anyone took note. As Donovan says to Powers: 'You know what you did. That's all that matters.' This, admittedly, is a classic formula of Hollywood movie making - but an important difference is that the hero defies the US government which follows a trend nowadays of freely criticising US historical behaviour but placing someone who acts according to how the US should have acted. It is retrospective idealism not really US propaganda. It's propaganda for western idealism which sadly the west hardly ever followed - something the film acknowledges. It does, however compare a little too starkly the contrasts between the powers - US safe and clean; East Germany(Soviet Union) unjust and treacherous. But then again, historically that was largely true. The US simply was a place of far less horror and confusion back then. But the way it contrasted the two was perhaps a bit much - I concede that.

As to your other comment concerning American Sniper - odd comment considering American Sniper is one of the most unashamedly pro-US films to come out of the mainstream since The Longest Day. A film glorifying a man who killed a lot and justifying it by creating a fictional bad guy we could all agree to despise. Clint claimed to just show the story of a soldier who had issues while portraying him as a hero - ending the film with the streets of America lined with people honouring the man as were he a fallen hero when really he was just a soldier obeying orders. Reckon Spielberg would actually have been more nuanced in the politics of it all. Spielberg tends to criticise his own country while upholding ideals he believes it should stand for but rarely does.

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The US simply was a place of far less horror and confusion back then.

That may be how the white picket fence propaganda would like people to think, but the reality is 1950s/1960s USA was a place of institutional racism and sexism, of lynchings and Apartheid, of witch hunts, political persecution and intelligence infiltration of civilian organizations and of absolutely horrific human experimentation programs.

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The problems you list in the US, while significant, are eclipsed by those in the Eastern Bloc. This is particularly true of political persecution and intelligence infiltration. If you want to know more, start with a history of the Stasi (or even Wikipedia).

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The problems you list in the US, while significant, are eclipsed by those in the Eastern Bloc.
Which isn't really what we're talking about. However, since you raise it, the contrast between the reported injustices of the Eastern Bloc and the principle of law in the US is the cornerstone of the film (and Donovan's book, for that matter). This is what he goes on about, almost endlessly. While he always believed that Abel was a spy, he had fundamental and sincere respect for the man. He also made it his business to ensure that, whatever his crimes, he was given a fair trial and not put before a kangaroo court or subjected to summary justice. In his book he explains quite clearly the dichotomy which existed - and continues to exist - in the minds of so many Americans:

My nearsighted friend would never understand why the Constitution protected Abel, until some night when he or one of his family was arrested for drunken driving or perhaps vehicular homicide. Then he would seek the best lawyer in the country to defend him and demand every constitutional right to which he was entitled. Many people never think about rights and privileges until they personally feel the need of them. Otherwise they denounce lawyers and judges for finding "loopholes" or "technicalities" in the law.

From "Strangers on a Bridge" by James B. Donovan, Athaneum House, 1964, Penguin Books, 2015, pp. 329-30.

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but he was able to obtain a fair trial and justice for Abel. that says something good about the USA.

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I agree. Donovan worked hard to make sure it happened.

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It was also a time when gays and lesbians could be forced to get shock treatment to "change" them. Or they, like blacks, immigrants and women, could be subjected to physical attacks and abuse with little opportunity for pressing charges that would be seriously accepted and prosecuted.

"Victor, what are we going to do to stop this fiendish tit?"

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Great comment.

Although I disagree. Spielberg show a man who is ideal American (or human being, if we want a generalization). Who is brave, determinant and honest because of the country's code he is serving. At the same time it's just a fiction, a lie. The real Donovan was different. I found this highly hypocritical. Showing a good thing (noble actions) using a bad thing (lie).

As to AS - I read the book after. Book is pure propaganda. While Clint put some delicate questions, making it more than just pro-military or pro-US movie. But like in a good movie any movigoer gets what he wants. I got the idea that war is not a good thing. And eventually would got you in the end no matter how many heroic actions have you done. Others could see it just like a straight propaganda. Or a film about American hero. Multiple outcomes. Not the case with BoS.

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While the government was keen to bend every rule one man held up ideas and morals to withstand the perversions of justice that repeatedly occurred during that period.
I'm sorry but this is not true. Individuals, like "Agent Hoffmann" may have conspired to fast track Abel to the electric chair (actually, Hoffmann was more interested in what he knew) but the government is not the bad guy in this pic. The bad guy is the average person who believed that an exception should be made for Abel. Without some government support - i.e.: staying out of it and abiding by the constitution, Abel would not have received a fair trial.

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Yeah, Pryor himself stated

Well, I enjoyed the movie,” he said. “It was good. But they took a lot of liberties with it.


http://www.swarthmore.edu/news-events/economist-frederic-pryor-recounts-life-a-spy

This movie was so over-dramatized and fictionalized.

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They did take liberties with his part, though it's worth noting that he wasn't really a major figure in the film. The purpose of his character was just to be the second chip that Donovan bargains for.

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Yeah, Pryor himself stated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I enjoyed the movie,” he said. “It was good. But they took a lot of liberties with it.

The Pryor character is a marginal character, who even Pryor himself admits is rarely onscreen. The main elements of his arrest and release are correct. Whether for instance as he notes, he was arrested in a police station as opposed to in the open as we see, are quite immaterial in the context of the overall dramatic story being told. 🐭

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Clint is as much a propagandist as Spielberg, just more quiet. American Sniper could have been a great movie if it had presented the lying braggart that was the real Chris Kyle. Then it would have been a movie about a real flawed human being, like the rest of us. instead, it was pure propaganda for an invasion that had no heroes, no bravery, no purpose. Poor Kyle. He shouldn't have been used by anyone to redeem that idiocy.

Spielberg is, was and always will be a propagandist, first and foremost. This is yet another movie of his where the only purpose of women is to scream or fret over their men, where heroes are invented so Spielberg can feel he is making a noble film, and the story is too simplistic for any thinking person to believe a single frame. An American student getting his PhD in Germany who doesn't speak German? Oh please.

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[deleted]

Oh crap!!!! Sorry about that.

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Well, why don't you just make up a story, why don'tcha? All that is pure speculation without one bit of evidence. You're just writing a fictional story with no factual basis at all.

Pryor wrote a book.

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The movie did fudge his previous history a bit, but it doesn't fundamentally undermine the movie's premise. Notwithstanding the powerful evidence uncovered by the guy who thinks he was Wild Bill Donovan, he wasn't. There's no indication he had anything to do with the CIA before he was recruited to negotiate the spy exchange, as shown in the movie.

He worked for the OSS for about a year and half - from late 1943 until March 1945 - when he joined Justice Jackson's prosecution team for the Nuremberg trials. Contrary to Wikipedia, he began at the OSS as a junior lawyer, and was General Counsel for less than a year.

Also note that, at the time, he was 28-30 years old, and just three years out of law school. The General Counsel is an in-house lawyer, obviously. He wasn't an agent - indeed, holding the fairly public and quite different role of General Counsel is really inconsistent with that. He never was anything other than a lawyer for the 17 years between graduation from law school and the start of what's in the movie. As General Counsel of the OSS, it appears that one of his main duties was organizing the gathering of information about concentration camps, as it was expected that this would be used in the context of a legal proceeding - as it was at Nuremberg. You could really look at his OSS experience as a prologue to his role at Nuremberg, which is clearly mentioned in the movie as a significant factor in his taking on the role he does.

Yes - he held a military rank during his government service. If you ever worked in a law firm at a time when people of his vintage were still around, you'd be aware that the majority of people who were youngish (or even not so youngish) adults did some sort of government service during WWII - as lawyers or officials with some office or other - and they often were Army Majors or Air Force Lt Commanders or something of the like. Apparently someone finds it highly significant that Donovan was a Naval Reserve officer in later years. There's nothing particularly unusual about that.

I can't help but imagine - in picturing the posters who see all sorts of sinister things in the shadows here - of the character in "Barcelona" who speaks darkly of the AFL-CIA as being part of a US plot, etc. Just don't go shooting Fred Boynton (or suggesting others do so).

The negotiations with Castro aren't remotely inconsistent with the movie, which is why that piece of information is featured at the end.

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There's no indication he had anything to do with the CIA before he was recruited to negotiate the spy exchange, as shown in the movie.

What kind of indication do we need?
Some official commentary from White House? CIA?

If anything this is classified information.

He wrote letters to Abel's "wife" for 9 month. Can we count it like an indication he worked for CIA?

I know it sounds strange but common sense speaks to me some lawyer without experience wouldn't be involved in two super powers negotiations on the verge of nuclear war. It would show complete incompetence of the CIA or government.

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Well, there's no indication you're working for the CIA, so I presume you are.

Donovan worked for the OSS in a public capacity for about 1-1/2 years in the middle of World War Two. After Nuremberg, he was a full-time practicing lawyer for over ten years before the Abel case. He really did do primarily insurance cases. Of all the people who might have been a clandestine employee of the CIA during those ten years, he probably ranks somewhere behind a couple million other people.

If he worked for the CIA in a role other than as a source of intelligence (analyst, lawyer, administrator, etc.), that information wouldn't have been classified at the time, and - even if it were - would since have been declassified. There's nothing in his history that would really qualify him to be a covert operative, and the existence of that history would actually diminish his capability to be one. And why would the use a covert operative to negotiate the deal, anyway?

He represented Abel. That, at least, is a matter of public record.

He wasn't a "lawyer without experience." He had a lot of experience negotiating deals, as do many lawyers. He also had represented Abel, and had his confidence. His representation of Abel also gave him a convenient role, other than as a representative of the United States, and a degree of credibility with the Soviets and East Germans. Plus, his service at Nuremberg (mentioned in the movie) and his role at the OSS (which the movie, somewhat inexplicably, omits) helped establish him as a reliable guy from the government's point of view. Even if he had never met Allen Dulles before (which he may or may not have - Dulles was in Switzerland when Donovan was with the OSS), they knew people in common, and Dulles presumably vetted Donovan.

I'm not sure where people get the idea that all lawyers are incompetents until they do something else. Dulles himself was a lawyer. So was the other Donovan. Nor do I follow, exactly, why experience as a clandestine CIA operative would better qualify him to negotiate a prisoner exchange than experience negotiating as a lawyer.

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It's a movie, not a history lesson.

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Well ... it's a movie based, reasonably closely, on actual history.

Anyway, it was the OP (and his supporters) I was responding to - particularly their argument that the movie dramatically departed from the real story (i.e. their attempt to give us a history lesson). Their "history" was pretty ill-founded, especially the part put forward by the guy (not the OP) who can't distinguish between different people with the same last name.

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It's a movie, not a history lesson.


Agreed. Why can't people just enjoy a good movie anymore without micro-analyzing every little nuance of it and ruthlessly examining every little scrap of historical minutia contained in it for validity?

Geez, just relax, folks. It's entertainment, not the National Archive. I couldn't care less how historically accurate it was, or not - it gave people a break from their everyday concerns for a few hours, so it did what it was intended to do.

If you want pinpoint historical accuracy, go watch some documentaries.

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One must NEVER fact-check after enjoying a bio-pic. I made that mistake with A BEAUTIFUL MIND.. a mistake which cost me my respect for Ron Howard, the Oscars, and the entire bio-pic genre...

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