A Bit Disappointed - Moana (2016) Discussion

[–] QueenFanUSA 8 years ago

That's an honest and well thought out opinion.

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[–] Zaphenzo 8 years ago

I respect your opinion. As far as the reason she's the chosen one, I just assumed it had to do with the potential within her. While she had none of the skills necessary at the beginning of the movie, she had the drive to explore that no one else in the village felt, and she was able to learn to be a near expert way finder very quickly. That's just how I saw it, though. It's true that it's never really explained. However, as Maui pointed out, the ocean's crazy, so there might not have been any reason she's the chosen one. As far as the ocean being a Deus Ex Machina, I would have to disagree. The only time the ocean really helped that much was when Maui tried to leave Moana behind/throw her off the boat. When she was trying to get to Maui, when they were fighting Te Ka, etc., the ocean didn't help at all.

This is mainly for the sake of discussion. I'm not trying to insult your opinion at all.

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[–] pinkled5 8 years ago

No worries, I enjoy a good discussion. :)

I dunno, I thought the ocean, overall, was used as a lazy plot device on multiple occasions. That scene where Maui threw her off the boat was just the most egregious example, but I respect that we have different opinions.

I guess I'm mostly disappointed that Moana wasn't more compelling as a character. A compelling character is given a desire of some kind, a passion, if you will, and then the plot is a series of conflicts they must overcome to realize their passion. Think about Ariel becoming "part of their world" or Anna reconnecting with her sister. Moana's passion was sailing beyond the reef and she realized her passion in the first 20 minutes of the film, with very few conflicts standing in her way. That's poor storytelling, imo.

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[–] Herengone 8 years ago

Ariel is the most superficial 90’s princess. Her whole story is based on dissatisfaction with her species and her obsession with a handsome human who she saw for all of 5 minutes. I shudder to think of her as an example of a more “compelling” character. She was selfish, childish, and naïve for the entire film and had no growth whatsoever.

When Moana leaves the island to start her journey, she has two passions. One is her people as evidenced at the end of “Where You Are” when she sings:

So here I'll stay
My home, my people beside me
And when I think of tomorrow
There we are

I'll lead the way
I'll have my people to guide me
We'll build our future together
Where we are

The other, of course, is passing the reef. The two are combined at the time of her departure as evidenced when she sings:

All the time wondering where I need to be
Is behind me
I'm on my own
To worlds unknown

Basically, she DOES need to be out on the ocean, but for a totally different reason. Her people are going to starve.

In terms of a “proper antagonist”, I’ll fault Disney for conditioning their audience to believe there needs to be a villain. Moana had conflicts and problems. She questioned herself for most of the movie, almost gave up to the point of giving the heart back, couldn’t deal with Maui, couldn’t wayfind, and even during the first battle with Te Ka, she dealt with being over confident. She fixed all those by the end.

Moana reminds me of a heavier version of Kiki’s Delivery Service. Kiki can barely fly properly when she first leaves her family and is awkward in almost every area. But at the end, she becomes more mature, worldly, and confident in her abilities – all without a histrionic villain following her around.

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[–] pinkled5 8 years ago

I'm glad you liked the movie. I can tell by your thoughts on "The Little Mermaid" that we have VERY different opinions on what constitutes good storytelling. Nothing wrong with that! :)

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[–] Herengone 8 years ago

Good storytelling and compelling characters are different things. There are great characters in bad stories and great stories with so-so characters moving them along. Ariel is desperate to be what she's not and wants marry a guy she just met. That's it. Nothing else. That's the opposite of a compelling character. And let's look at her modern Disney sisters...

Elsa fears hurting people with powers she never learned to control and doesn't have the courage to take her place as rightful leader, Belle dealt with the trauma of being held captive, Rapunzel isn't traumatized but escapes total isolation and grows a bit, Pocahontas tried to avoid war between two groups, Mulan actually went to war in her father's place in order to save his life, Merida and Jasmine fought being forced to marry men not of their choosing, Tiana dreams of having her own business, and Moana tries to prevent her people from starving.

And we're back to Ariel that wants legs and to marry a human. That's it. Nothing else.

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[–] pinkled5 8 years ago

And we're back to Ariel that wants legs and to marry a human. That's it. Nothing else.

Ariel had passion and a dream, and I sympathized with her plight and was emotionally invested in her struggle. I experienced none of that with Moana.

It's obvious we disagree and I'm ok with that. Are you?

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[–] Herengone 8 years ago

Passions and dreams are the standard in Disney movies and culture. Their theme song literally says, "your dreams come true". It doesn't make much sense to say Ariel is compelling because her story possess a trope that's displayed in all Disney princess films. But hearing that you gauge what is compelling or not based on your emotional investment explains everything.

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[–] pinkled5 8 years ago

hearing that you gauge what is compelling or not based on your emotional investment explains everything.

Caring about the protagonist and their plight is what makes the difference between me being entertained or bored.

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[–] Herengone 8 years ago

Caring about the protagonist and their plight is what makes the difference between me being entertained or bored.

Hmm. Sorry to hear you have that type of limitation. I can't relate.

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[–] UnvoicedApollo1 8 years ago

The ocean is no more a lazy plot device than Olaf is. While symbolic of the sisters' love, he's really an unnecessary character that resolves problems for Anna.

As for passion, Moana is given two clear passions: her passion for her island and her people and her desire to sail across the ocean, the latter of which she cannot do effectively and therefore is not truly realized. A plot is background noise for a character to overcome conflict, not to reveal what kind of desieres she has. In Frozen, what was Anna's passion? Her sister, and the plot certainly didn't take to the end of the movie for Anna to realize it. That passion was also revealed and realized within the first 20 minutes of the movie. In The Little Mermaid, Ariel's passion is to learn about humans. A character's desires and passions aren't reliant on plot. Rather plot is about how a series of events in the story affects a character and creates conflict that stands between a character and their desires.

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[–] pinkled5 8 years ago

The ocean is no more a lazy plot device than Olaf is. While symbolic of the sisters' love, he's really an unnecessary character that resolves problems for Anna.

As for passion, Moana is given two clear passions: her passion for her island and her people and her desire to sail across the ocean, the latter of which she cannot do effectively and therefore is not truly realized. A plot is background noise for a character to overcome conflict, not to reveal what kind of desieres she has. In Frozen, what was Anna's passion? Her sister, and the plot certainly didn't take to the end of the movie for Anna to realize it. That passion was also revealed and realized within the first 20 minutes of the movie. In The Little Mermaid, Ariel's passion is to learn about humans. A character's desires and passions aren't reliant on plot. Rather plot is about how a series of events in the story affects a character and creates conflict that stands between a character and their desires.

UnvoicedApollo, you know me all too well, don't you? :)

You make valid points, but all the logic in the world can't change the fact that this movie did not connect with me on any level. :shrug: I do prefer character driven plots to be sure, but I found myself a little bored throughout this movie. I just wasn't invested in the story or the characters, for whatever reason. I'm not saying it's a bad movie, I'm just saying it didn't appeal to me. I don't think this movie had the broad appeal that movies like Frozen or The Little Mermaid did, and that's ok, I guess.

Always nice to see an old friend on the IMDB forums. I'm gonna miss 'em when they're gone.

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[–] UnvoicedApollo1 8 years ago

I'm not trying to get you to like it, but I don't understand your points while you have understood mine.

I don't see Moana as any less character driven than Frozen. In fact, since Moana is far more about her self identity and reconciling her responsibility with her dream, I would argue it is more character driven.

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[–] pinkled5 8 years ago

Did you see my other post on this subject? It might help you understand a little better why I feel the way I do.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3521164/board/thread/265638686

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[–] UnvoicedApollo1 8 years ago

I did & still didn't understand since her dream is pretty clear and IMO doesn't really achieve it until she actually learns how to sail & return home without help.

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[–] Zaphenzo 8 years ago

Pinkled5, the reason we are so confused is because you are stating that Moana did not have drive or a desire/dream that she wanted to achieve. That is an objective statement that is incorrect. If you say you just didn't feel connected to it or interested in her desire/dream, that is subjective, which we can't argue. And that's fine. We are okay with that. But when you objectively state that Moana didn't have a dream that she wanted to achieve, that just isn't true.

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[–] pinkled5 8 years ago

Pinkled5, the reason we are so confused is because you are stating that Moana did not have drive or a desire/dream that she wanted to achieve. That is an objective statement that is incorrect. If you say you just didn't feel connected to it or interested in her desire/dream, that is subjective, which we can't argue. And that's fine. We are okay with that. But when you objectively state that Moana didn't have a dream that she wanted to achieve, that just isn't true.

Perhaps she did, but it wasn't developed very well, imo, that's all I'm saying.

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[–] Herengone 8 years ago

The ocean did help her out a few times. It woke her up when she fell asleep and then found Maui for her. Also, when Te Ka tried to lob a fireball at her while she was climbing with her back turned, the ocean made a wall. It also saved Hei Hei at least once.

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[–] Shychick52 8 years ago

Why do men always feel the need to post their age and gender in these kinds of topics?

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[–] pinkled5 8 years ago

Why do men always feel the need to post their age and gender in these kinds of topics?

I can only speak for myself, but I guess it's my way of combating the notion that animated Disney movies are for kids. I wholeheartedly disagree with that notion. Good storytelling is good storytelling, regardless of the studio that produces it or the medium they employ.

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[–] OpinionsByLennon 8 years ago

Agreed! I'm also male and in my 40's. I've heard countless times from adults that have some strange fear about going to a theater and watching an animated film. This isn't at all what Walt Disney intended. Never once did he say he say his work was just for kids, he always said his park and films where for everyone to enjoy young and old.

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[–] Zaphenzo 8 years ago

Agreed! I'm also male and in my 40's. I've heard countless times from adults that have some strange fear about going to a theater and watching an animated film. This isn't at all what Walt Disney intended. Never once did he say he say his work was just for kids, he always said his park and films where for everyone to enjoy young and old.

So true. In fact, a famous quote from Disney:

You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway.

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[–] sul-uddin96 8 years ago

Wow, a decent and honest opinion on the internet...

Okay, what's going on, here?!

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[–] louiseculmer 8 years ago

Well, I hated Frozen, I thought it had a rubbish plot, so I may like this one.

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[–] pinkled5 8 years ago

Yes, everything is subjective. Let me know what you think when you see it.

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[–] phantom_pixie 8 years ago

The first part of the film is well executed, the background of Moana's life, her relationship with her family and the world around her, hopes, dreams and wishes. It's great and emotional.
But from the moment she takes off it feels more like you are watching a few shot films cut together into one. Every section so so disconected from the rest that the plot is about as great as a 8-bit videogame. There is the Disney "Minions" coconut army. There is the giant singing crab bit. There is the Te Fiti section. That is it! Inbetween those bits you have the same glue-like formula; Maui puches Moana in the ocean, the ocean brings her back, the chicken is derp, Moana talks about Maui's resposiblity.

The film came across as underdeveloped to me. Wich is sad, because it seemed to have potential.

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[–] UnvoicedApollo1 8 years ago

1. A story doesn't always need a super evil villain.

2. It's pretty clear why the Ocean chose Moana from the opening scene. It took a combination of her empathy (revealed when she helped the sea turtle) and Maui's strength to resolve the true essence of the conflict.

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[–] PickleJuice (4) 8 years ago

There was way too much singing. Ruined the movie for me.

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