Batman begins >>>> Any MCU movie
I love Batman Begins.
shareI love Batman Begins.So do I.
Uh oh spaghettios - Zack Snyder, David Ayer, Bryan Singer (2016) share
MovieChat Forums > Captain America: Civil War (2016) Discussion > Batman begins >>>> Any MCU movie
Uh oh spaghettios - Zack Snyder, David Ayer, Bryan Singer (2016) share
Except nearly 100% of the dialogue all fit the same tired over-dramatized theme, they were all written to spoon feed the audience what the film is about. You can complain all you you want that the MCU characters joke and quip a little too much, but let's be honest. They're human beings who show us their turmoil without feeling the need to force it down our throat with over-dramatized dialogue.
Find me one line of dialogue in Batman Begins, ONE, that comes off like an actual human being talking and not thematic exposition? One.
Officially Canadian for 27 years. Never heard "aboot."
Officially Canadian for 27 years. Never heard "aboot."
One guy I knew in the Detroit area said it, but it was more like "aboat."
#TeamZemo share
It's not who I am underneath... but what I *do*... that defines me.
As a man, I'm flesh and blood, I can be ignored, I can be destroyed; but as a symbol... as a symbol I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting.
No, no, *this*... is your mask. Your real face is the one that criminals now fear. The man I loved - the man who vanished - he never came back at all. But maybe he's still out there, somewhere. Maybe some day, when Gotham no longer needs Batman, I'll see him again.Are you saying these don't come off as natural things a person would say in actual conversation? So cynical... share
It's not who I am underneath... but what I *do*... that defines me.
In fairness, in that one he's intentionally paraphrasing something Rachel said earlier.
All for a box of chocolates... share
Oh right nothing compares to Tony´s cheesy forced jokes...get lost
shareMany of Tony's jokes are cheesy--and they come with the smile or the wink to underscore that--but part of what makes the character so much fun is that they're not at all forced. They feel 100% like Tony's natural reaction to the situation he's in.
And yes, I'd rather have that fluid, jokey style over a heavy-handed Goyer/Nolan script. No question.
#TeamZemo
See...and there is a difference between us...
MCU beat Batman Begins on its first try.
shareAnd people claim their isn't a meth problem in this country.
shareBatman begins had a few nice dialogues, and I honestly loved batman's characterisation. However, overall the movie hardly made any sense and had many plot holes for a supposedly "realistic" movie
shareÏt´s the best origins story of a superhero...that movie is done so well
shareÏt´s the best origins story of a superhero...
Although I prefer The Dark Knight as a movie, I agree with that (have to say though that my second favourite superhero origin story is Captain America: The First Avenger).
Personally I think The Dark Knight >>>>> any MCU movie, but that's not a DC vs Marvel thing - I also think The Dark Knight >>>>> any other DC movie! I'm very fair!
All for a box of chocolates... share
I just love how realistic it feels...I mean how do you make a man who dressed as a huge Bat feel real?
the way he comes to all his gadgets and tech is quite realistic...of course impossible
But you know what I mean
first avenger? meh but that´s fine
I absolutely agree. I love the atmosphere in Burton's films but seeing Bale in the costume actually made me think that maybe a guy could walk around dressed as a bat and not get the **** taken out of him!
All for a box of chocolates...
I like Begins as the best origin movie because you see how he created "himself" from scratch basically...it´s very intriguing to watch...I would have put him in the costume a little bit later but...you know...people would freak out if they saw BATMAN only in the final act :D
Ironman is similar in the sense that you see how Tony builds the stuff...it may be the best origin in MCU...First Avenger is fine
I re-watched Begins recently..the whole trilogy...I may like it more than TDK...but those movies are different in their essence...but origin movies are just fun
WHICH MADE me mad when I found out that Warner Bros cut so much sh!t out of Suicide Squad...namely the origin of Harley Quinn.......
Batman Begins is too heavy handed. I tried to watch it again a few years ago and found that the dialogue just bludgeoned me to death with the "fear" theme. Rachel Dawes annoyed the sh** out of me so I found her character worthless, and the third act was sub-par. And honestly the action in BB is shot terribly which became a staple of Nolan's Batman films. Batman and Captain America are both world class martial artists. I can see Cap's skill and strength CLEARLY in his films. In Nolan's Batman's films his fight scenes are chopped up with nonsensical nano-second editing which has no re-watch value at all.
shareI love Batman Begins.I agree with this.
Batman begins >>>> Any MCU movieI don't agree with this. I feel that Captain America: Winter Soldier, Captain America: Civil War, The Avengers, Avengers: Age of Ultron, Ant-man, Thor, Iron Man, and Iron Man 3 are better films/stories than Batman Begins, and that's not counting the other Marvel films that weren't made by Marvel Studios.
Not only that, but the MCU films aren't afraid to incorporate the more fantastical elements of the comic books, whereas the Nolan Batman films are afraid to even go near the weirder aspects of the comics.
Also, while I love Nolan's first two Batman movies, I really don't like A) the fight scenes and cinematography for them, and B) how he writes women.
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I feel that Captain America: Winter Soldier, Captain America: Civil War, The Avengers, Avengers: Age of Ultron, Ant-man, Thor, Iron Man, and Iron Man 3 are better films/stories than Batman Begins
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Not only that, but the MCU films aren't afraid to incorporate the more fantastical elements of the comic books, whereas the Nolan Batman films are afraid to even go near the weirder aspects of the comics.
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I feel that Captain America: Winter Soldier, Captain America: Civil War, The Avengers, Avengers: Age of Ultron, Ant-man, Thor, Iron Man, and Iron Man 3 are better films/stories than Batman Begins,
I can see the Argument for the Captain America sequels, the first Avengers and hell even the first Iron Man but Batman Begins absolutely blows away stuff like Age of Ultron, Ant-Man, Thor and especially Iron Man 3.
he more fantastical elements of the comic books,
That's not an indicator of film quality. Plenty of terrible comic book movies embrace the "fantastical elements of the comic books". share
but Batman Begins absolutely blows away stuff like Age of Ultron, Ant-Man, Thor and especially Iron Man 3.Alright. I disagree on that, but that's just my opinion.
That's not an indicator of film quality.I didn't say it was. I'm just personally happier to see the more fantastical elements adapted in the films that are also well constructed.
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That's not an indicator of film quality. Plenty of terrible comic book movies embrace the "fantastical elements of the comic books".
How Nolan handless fantastical villains with unrealistic powers in his movies:
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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ch7ZQGUa97g/VRRBXyafknI/AAAAAAAABOQ/tMYQpSVIV2w/s1600/batman-begins08.jpg
How Marvel does that:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bsxMNv7J544/maxresdefault.jpg
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How Nolan handless fantastical villains with unrealistic powers in his movies:All of your examples are because of psychedelic drugs, not actual powers. "Unrealistic". There are Ninja's training in the Himalayan mountains, near-omnipotent crazy clown men, an ancient secret cult of society destroying madmen, and a man who dresses up like a Bat just because.
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All of your examples are because of psychedelic drugs, not actual powers.
You mean like in the comics, where Dr. Jonathan Crane was using various drugs and and toxins to affect the psychology of others people?
There are Ninja's training in the Himalayan mountains, near-omnipotent crazy clown men, an ancient secret cult of society destroying madmen, and a man who dresses up like a Bat just because.
Except, all those elements were grounded in reality. Ra's Al Ghul was not immortal in a literal sense. His immortality was presented through the fact that his ideas of a perfect world will exist even after his death. The Joker didn't fall into the vat of chemicals. And Batman... Well, Batman is a realistic character. Nolan understood the nuances of the source material instead of superficially replicating the lore. share
Except, all those elements were grounded in reality.The 'computer identity eraser' maguffin in TDKR is more science fiction than most superhero films. Are you telling me that it just erases everything from the internet, and even things like people knowing Selina Kyle's face or her history just magically disappears?
Ra's Al Ghul was not immortal in a literal sense. His immortality was presented through the fact that his ideas of a perfect world will exist even after his death.I thought it was through that literal moment where he disproves immortality by asking "is Ra's Al Ghul immortal" but Bruce just counters that it's parlor tricks (even though he gets a vision of spirit-Ra's that gives him plot details that Batman couldn't have possibly known).
The Joker didn't fall into the vat of chemicals. And Batman... Well, Batman is a realistic character. Nolan understood the nuances of the source material, instead of superficially replicating the lore.The audacious weirdness of the setting with grim-faced Batman taking it on is so fascinating to me. BB and TDK were still great films, but there's something so wonderfully absurd and fascinating about how Batman operates, including how the comic books delve into the supernatural (but I do think Nolan has a good eye for supernatural storytelling that doesn't include science prefacing everything). And it's not superficial to incorporate the oddities of the lore. Having Mister Freeze be a man literally frozen is thematic to the lack of loving warmth he feels in his life as a connection to his wife.
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The 'computer identity eraser' maguffin in TDKR is more science fiction than most superhero films.
I highly doubt that a computer program that erases all the information about a specific person is as unrealistic as flying dragon-like creatures that come from a giant butthole in the sky.
Are you telling me that it just erases everything from the internet, and even things like people knowing Selina Kyle's face or her history just magically disappears?
I don't know, since I don't deal with nuances of the computer/programming engineering. But that element definitely wasn't as off-putting as a plot that involves a superbly progressive A.I. that's able to control the state of the entire world, and instead of turning the world into hell by destroying the economic system, or exposing all the hidden secrets of the world's most greatest nations, he decides to throw a city from the sky.
I thought it was through that literal moment where he disproves immortality by asking "is Ra's Al Ghul immortal" but Bruce just counters that it's parlor tricks (even though he gets a vision of spirit-Ra's that gives him plot details that Batman couldn't have possibly known).
A) Well, and that also. B) Bruce's vision of Ra's Al Ghul was... Well, just a vision, and maybe a metaphor for Ra's Al Ghul's immortality, since his spirit still haunts Bruce.
The audacious weirdness of the setting with grim-faced Batman taking it on is so fascinating to me. BB and TDK were still great films, but there's something so wonderfully absurd and fascinating about how Batman operates, including how the comic books delve into the supernatural (but I do think Nolan has a good eye for supernatural storytelling that doesn't include science prefacing everything).
I don't see any "weirdness" within the world that Nolan established. Nolan's reality is not our reality. As he said, he created an operatic reality with grand sense of realism. His movies are not replicating the real life. His Batman movies are still movies. He wasn't trying to create an uber-realistic world in which everybody is acting exactly like people in real world, since that would make for a boring movie. He created an operatic world that follows all the orthodox principles of moviemaking but are more grounded and acceptable than average superhero movies.
And it's not superficial to incorporate the oddities of the lore. Having Mister Freeze be a man literally frozen is thematic to the lack of loving warmth he feels in his life as a connection to his wife.
I did not say that inclusion of the supernatural elements from the comics automatically implies that it's going to be superficial. I mean that if you take only superficial elements from the source material, you will get a superficial characterization. Like, for example, taking into account only superficial elements of Mr. Freeze, thus making him constantly throw ice puns and nothing else. But hey! You're the guy who thinks that Iron Man 3 was a better movie than any of the Nolan's Batman films, and you think it was also more loyal to its source material. I mean, can I really take your opinion after that seriously?
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More ashamed, actually.
shareMore ashamed, actually.
So you started stalking me again? Anyway, Nolan is ashamed. Ashamed of making his movies a generic popcorn flicks that will embrace the source material only superficially. We all know that MCU could care less about the comics. You know this, I know this. I know that you can't back it up, so you will response by changing the context in my quote, since that's the only way you can defend your point when you have nothing to say. share
Leave it to Nolan, Captain America wouldn't have superpowers or even be in the Army. He'd just be some returning War Vet with PTSD who wears an American Shield T-Shirt who spends his time fighting a Neo-Nazi skinhead who painted his face red while dealing drugs in their apartment building.
Plus Cap would stop every 10 minutes to give some silly monologue on the state of the economy.
And Nolan would rip off a dozen different movies while filming it.
shareLeave it to Nolan
I know that you love to make these unoriginal, dull hypotheses about the possibility in which Nolan would direct the movie that completely below his league, but how it's relates to the topic? You don't see me running around on these message boards while saying, "Oh, if Joe Johnston have directed Batman Begins, that movie would be so dull and sapless that even Batman Returns would look like Batman 1989 in comparison. We would spent zero time with Bruce Wayne as a character. His origin would be told through cheesy exposition, and the second half of the film would be one giant corny montage with poorly CGI-ed action scenes"
Neo-Nazi skinhead who painted his face red while dealing drugs in their apartment building.
Which sounds way more interesting that the actual characterization of the Red Skull from the first film. But, you know, maybe if Nolan directed The First Avenger, maybe we could've got a movie about Captain America that is actually about World War 2, instead of being a two-hour corny montage of Captain America fighting pseudo-Nazis in front of a terrible green screen effect. Maybe we would had some development of his relationships with his parents. Nolan would probably dived deeply into his psychology. Explored his troubled childhood. And Steve would most definitely meet Backy in the army, like in the comics, instead of shoehorning their long time friendship from the first minutes of the film. We all know that Nolan is all about depth and characters. Joe Johnston is... Well, he made Jurassic Park 3 (which, BTW, I like way more than Jurassic World). share
I know that you love to make these unoriginal, dull hypotheses about the possibility in which Nolan would direct the movie that completely below his league, but how it's relates to the topic?
Nolan's too incompetent to handle the wondrous.
Which sounds way more interesting that the actual characterization of the Red Skull from the first film.
So now you dislike the comics too, finally you're owning up.
But, you know, maybe if Nolan directed The First Avenger, maybe we could've got a movie about Captain America that is actually about World War 2
Nope, he wouldn't be able to handle that. And Caps WWII stories were more about fighting the Skull and Baron Zemo than anything else.
Maybe we would had some development of his relationships with his parents. Nolan would probably dived deeply into his psychology. Explored his troubled childhood.
Cap's not about his daddy issues. They were able to get his character across without something that exploitative.
And Steve would most definitely meet Becky in the army, like in the comics, instead of shoehorning their long time friendship from the first minutes of the film.
So now you'd want Bucky to be a teenager too? TFA got the friendship across in such an effective way it was surprising.
We all know that Nolan is all about the depth and the characters.
He writes archetypes and one-note fanatics, not characters. share
If by "wondrous" you mean "superficial exploitation of the aspects from the source material with no idea of how to handle the subtext", then, yeah, Nolan avoids such way of handling the source material. When you have someone like Joe Johnston, Shane Black, or Alan Taylor making a comic book movie, you will most likely have soulless, sapless cringefest that explores the source material only within the aesthetic. Nolan explores the source material on a subtextual level.
So now you dislike the comics too, finally you're owning up.
And which part of my statement says that? I said that I dislike Red Skull from the movie, not comics. In comics, Red Skull was way more interesting and three-dimensional. His classic Silver Age depiction, AKA bloodthirsty Nazi with a giant swastika painted on his outfit, was more interesting, while his more modern version has more dimensionality. I said that I prefer that version which you described to the one which we got in the movie, which is not the comic book accurate Red Skull. He's not even racist in the movie, which is already nothing like Red Skull from comics.
Nope, he wouldn't be able to handle that.
If Nolan can handle something as complex as movies like Memento, The Prestige, The Dark Knight, and Inception, I don't think that a story about a super-soldier who fights Nazis during World War 2 would be something hard for him to do. Of course, he wouldn't do it in the first place, since he doesn't like superhero archetypes, and Captain America is one. And he never made a politically charged movie. And you can't make a Captain America movie without going political at least for one bit.
And Caps WWII stories were more about fighting the Skull and Baron Zemo than anything else.
No, they were more than that. Here, as you call it, a "holocaust exploitation", which you can't stand.
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https://holocaustvisualarchive.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/what-if-magneto.jpg
Also, I love the idea that Cap met Magneto when he was still a kid.
Cap's not about his daddy issues.
Huh...
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This is one of my favorite Iron Man stories. Here, Tony is at his lowest, and Steve tries to talk common sense into him. And he mentions how his father was an alcoholic as well, who did not want to acknowledge his problems. That clearly means that Cap had issues with his father. Let alone the fact that his father was also abusive towards his mother and him.
They were able to get his character across without something that exploitative.
And that's why we didn't care for Captain America until his second standalone movie, since his first movie established him very poorly, thus, because he was a weak character in his own movie, we could care less for him in the Avengers. There is a reason why Screen Junkies made a joke about him not being anyone's favorite avenger in their Avengers video.
So now you'd want Bucky to be a teenager too?
He can be an adult. They could've cast an adult actor that looks like a teenager, like Marvel did with Tom Holland. And the movie could've actually reference the fact that Bucky in the comics was a kid, by making a joke about people constantly asking "Who invited a kid in U.S. army?", not knowing that he is above 18.
TFA got the friendship across in such an effective way it was surprising.
In such an effective way that I laughed out loud when Bucky fell off that train (mainly due to the terrible green screen effect and funny body movement), and I actually thought that it was for the better that he was gone, since he did not enhance the story, or wasn't that interesting to begin.
He writes archetypes and one-note fanatics, not characters.
One-note archetypes usually don't have profound inner worlds, sophisticated personalities, and extensional personal conflicts. If I think of an archetype within comic book movie genre, I'll just watch Thor movies, Iron Man (2 and 3), or the Avengers movies. Those movies are visual examinations of the characters with an archetypal nature. share
If by "wondrous" you mean
Something unashamed, which Nolan is incapable of in favor of some shallow pretentious drivel that tries to be philosophical but is really shallow.
Trash like "Die a Hero or live long enough to become a villain". What's worse is people think this nonsense is profound when it collapses easily.
And which part of my statement says that? I said that I dislike Red Skull from the movie, not comics.
It's a pretty good translation, considering how 1-D the Skull is. Of course, if you want the villain to be the real star of the show (an outdated thought process) I can see why you'd be upset.
If Nolan can handle something as complex as movies like Memento, The Prestige, The Dark Knight, and Inception
None of which are terribly good. They just have shallow aesthetics that make people feel smart from watching them when they're all pretty basic.
No, they were more than that. Here, as you call it, a "holocaust exploitation", which you can't stand.
That not exploiting the Holocaust for an unrelated plot point, that's just showing a Concentration Camp.
This is one of my favorite Iron Man stories. Here, Tony is at his lowest, and Steve tries to talk common sense into him. And he mentions how his father was an alcoholic as well, who did not want to acknowledge his problems.
One panel in one story isn't the same thing as a 12 issue run dedicated solely to that (Nolan's way of doing things).
And that's why we didn't care for Captain America until his second standalone movie
Not, not enough "America, Hell Yeah!" jinogism instead of something nuanced that bothers treating the Brits and Germans with respect?
He can be an adult.
But that's not how you want it. After all, Nolan himself hated the idea of Robin so he gave us that trash with Levitt in DKR.
In such an effective way that I laughed out loud when Bucky fell off that train
That's your failing, not the movie.
One-note archetypes usually don't have profound inner worlds, sophisticated personalities, and extensional personal conflicts.
None of which you'll find in a Nolan work. Exactly my point. share
Something unashamed, sapless, and so trivial, that it epitomizes the word "generickness". That's what MCU stands for.
*fixed
Trash like "Die a Hero or live long enough to become a villain". What's worse is people think this nonsense is profound when it collapses easily.
I get that you hate sophistication and thought-provoking subtexts. I know that you hate when movie tries to escape the formulaic approach of its genre and when it tries to dive deeply into its characters. I know that you think that fart jokes, urine jokes, and forced slapstick humor examine the sophistication. But, just because you think so, doesn't mean that other people think. For you, superficial means deep, but for me it means... Well, it means superficial.
It's a pretty good translation
Nah. It's not. The movie was afraid to acknowledge that Red Skull is supposed to be a coldblooded Nazi.
considering how 1-D the Skull is.
Well, you hate comics, so I can't convince you to like these characters from the comics.
Of course, if you want the villain to be the real star of the show (an outdated thought process) I can see why you'd be upset.
I would definitely rather see a live-action movie where the comic book Red Skull is the star, as oppose to seeing a weak two hour origin movie of Captain America where he fights Hydra in front of a poorly CGI-ed green screen.
None of which are terribly good. They just have shallow aesthetics that make people feel smart from watching them when they're all pretty basic.
All of which, of course, are great, well-written, and well-constructed movies with grand and sophisticated concepts. Movies that have great style, but in which style never prevails above the substance. But in case you find those things shallow, you can, as always, go back watching Iron Man 2 or 3. Those movies have scat and urine jokes. Just like you want all these comic book movies to be. Superficial, trivial, and filled with forced, unfunny humor.
That not exploiting the Holocaust for an unrelated plot point, that's just showing a Concentration Camp.
Showing that Captain America saved Magneto from a death camp is a pretty strong plot point.
One panel in one story isn't the same thing as a 12 issue run dedicated solely to that
I bet that there are way more examples of that. This one was just the one with which I was familiar the most.
(Nolan's way of doing things).
So Nolan's way of doing things is to dive deeply into psychology of the characters, exploring their inner fears, and not showing them as one-dimensional archetypes.
Not, not enough "America, Hell Yeah!"
Not enough character development, mixed with poorly done action scenes, trivial story, shoehorned romance that was not needed, etc. In fact, I think The First Avenger was way too one-sided with its political message. That movie could've explored way more than it did, considering the environment in which the movie is set.
jinogism instead of something nuanced that bothers treating the Brits and Germans with respect?
But then showing stereotypical mad Nazi scientists who serve to the main villain.
But that's not how you want it.
I just said how I would like it to be.
After all, Nolan himself hated the idea of Robin
Well, he hated the idea of including the Robin in his trilogy. I don't think he has a gripe against the character. The main reason why he would refuse to do that is mainly because Batman has been referred as a pedophile because of his relationships with Robin.
so he gave us that trash with Levitt in DKR.
You mean he actually build up his character, made a bond between him and Bruce Wayne, and he didn't just slap the name of the Robin on him just for the sake of it, like Marvel did with the Mandarin? Marvel were so inconsistent with what they did with the Mandarin, they made three versions of him (Trevor, Killian, and supposed "real Mandarin" from All Hail The King), none of which have anything to do with the comic book character.
That's your failing, not the movie.
Yep. It's my fault that I find stupid things to be stupid.
None of which you'll find in a
Good majority of Marvel films. Exactly. My point. share