MovieChat Forums > Gracepoint (2014) Discussion > Under either scenario, Joe is guilty.

Under either scenario, Joe is guilty.


In addition to crimes relating to obstruction of justice and moving the body, Joe would probably be charged with felony murder. It doesn't matter that it was an accident, or that Tom was the direct cause of the accident.

California's felony murder rule covers accidental deaths occurring during the commission or attempt to commit specified felonies. (Sec. 189, below) While murder generally requires an intent to kill, accidental deaths that occur during specified felonies are punished as first degree murder even if another person actually causes the death. It doesn't matter that the crime was not completed; attempts are covered as well.

The felony murder statute includes the felony known as "lewd acts with children". (Sec. 288, below) That includes willfully touching of any part of a child’s body "with the intent of arousing, appealing to, or gratifying the lust, passions, or sexual desires of that person or the child". If someone dies during the commission of or an attempt to commit that crime, it's first degree murder.

Joe tried to touch Danny, and Danny ran. Danny died while trying to escape, even though it was an accident. Joe is facing 25 years to life in prison, life without parole or death (although the death penalty is unlikely) no matter what happens to Tom, so his decision to take sole responsibility isn't irrational.

Lewd acts:
http://www.search-california-law.com/research/ca/PEN/288./Cal-Penal-Co de-Section-288/text.html
Felony murder:
http://www.search-california-law.com/research/ca/PEN/189./Cal-Penal-Co de-Section-189/text.html


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But Danny didn't die directly because Joe was trying to molest him, so I'm not sure if that would hold up. Seems like there is enough of a loophole there that a good lawyer would get him off. Then with any luck, someone would take the sick pos out if he was let off the hook by the courts.

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That's not required. Danny died while trying to escape. If Joe had just let him go, his lawyer could argue the crime was over (assuming Danny died after escaping). But he can't claim the crime was completed while Joe was chasing him.

Indeed, the chase should be presented by the prosecutor as an attempted kidnapping. That is also a felony specified in the felony murder statute. That's even clearer than the lewd acts statute, so you just dug the hole a little deeper for Joe.

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None of the stuff you are saying is what happened. Danny wasn't even killed trying to run away. He was killed going towards Joe and Tom. Sadly, whatever sick things Joe had in mind, he would get off because Danny was killed before Joe was able to go through with anything.

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He died during the ATTEMPTED commission of a predicate felony.

That's first degree murder under California's felony murder rule.

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He wouldn't be charged with murder

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Seriously? You've obviously never met a prosecutor.

Before I retired, I practiced as both a defense attorney and a prosecutor. Whenever a victim has died, prosecutors go straight to the murder statute. Especially the felony murder statute, because you don't need to prove intent.

Joe would certainly be charged with murder, even if the plan was to get him to plea to a lesser offense. And the jury is going to hate his guts, so he'd be convicted unless the DA decided to show him leniency.



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The problem with your argument is we have all seen people get off for horrible crimes with more evidence against them than what they would have on Joe. A good lawyer would easily get him off.

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He might be acquitted, but that's not as easy as you think. Especially when a child is a murder victim.

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Joe would certainly be charged with murder
On what basis? He didn't even touch Danny. How can he be charged with murder? Danny's death was pure accident, no-one tried to harm him.

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The statute covers ATTEMPTS. Even though the death was an accident it doesn't matter.

If a felony victim suffers a heart attack and dies, it's felony murder.

http://www.shouselaw.com/felony-murder.html

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The statute covers ATTEMPTS. Even though the death was an accident it doesn't matter.

If a felony victim suffers a heart attack and dies, it's felony murder.

There was no attempts. Nobody attempted to harm Danny. Joe was trying to save him (from falling or jumping) and Tom tried to hurt his father. Danny was not a felony victim. His death was an accident. Nobody attacked him. He accidentally run onto something and died.

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Joe held his right hand on Danny's cheek for several seconds, and then drew his thumb gently across Danny's lips. When Danny started to leave, Joe tried to grab his hand. When Danny ran, Joe chased him.

Lewd acts with children.

Attempted kidnapping.

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I got you McDogger. I agree with you.

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Don't feel like making a new post so I'll ask here.

Did they ever recover the oar?

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Yeah, I did watch Gracepoint and liked it.

I just don't remember if the oar was found or not, I could see Joe dumping it.

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So can we assume that the CSI's saw it and collected it? Not sure why I don't remember the oar.

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Is Joe REALLY a pedophile - or merely a closet homosexual who was grooming the 12 year old boy (close to puberty) for a homosexual relationship as the boy matured?

There are many examples of such behavior like this one:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/10/nj_man_claims_he_was_sexually.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heath_Stocks

Like the Catholic Priest "pedophile" scandals - the vast majority of newly "discovered" Boy Scout sexual abuse scandals are almost totally homosexual abuse of boys either close to puberty and/or just past puberty and often continue as the "boy" actually matures well into puberty - which by definition is no longer "pedophilia".

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Did you bother reading my links?

This IS how such behavior is characterized by such people in the literature - as it occurs in real life. Perhaps you would prefer the term "seduction" as applied to men-women sexual relationships? Like the more and more prevalent older teacher women now "seducing" younger student males for sex...

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Just to be clear: Charles Manson was sentenced by the jury to die. Later, the courts ruled that California's death penalty law was too vague and arbitrary, and overturned death sentences in the state.

Manson's sentence was reduced to life when the California Supreme Court held that he could not be re-sentenced to death after the constitutional defects were fixed.

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Everything you said was accurate. I was just clarifying the part that some would construe as saying the jury gave him life.

Manson escaped the death penalty because California interpreted state law more narrowly than federal constitutional law. The SCOTUS would have been happy to let Charlie have a second trial for sentencing, under the corrected statute, with the death penalty on the table.

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The rule can be harsh. It can produce harsh sentences that are disproportionate to the crime. That doesn't mean that the felony murder rule doesn't exist. I'm a retired attorney with experience as a defense attorney and a prosecutor. I'm not making this up.

The facts could support convictions for lewd acts with a child and attempted kidnapping. Both are predicate offenses in the felony murder statute.

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That seems like a reach. It wasn't like Joe was chasing Danny, then he tripped over a rock and hit his head. In that case, I could see it. But Tom's intervention would seem to change things. Had Danny kept running, he would have gotten away scot free.

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That doesn't matter.

Sometimes victims are accidentally killed escaping and sometimes they are accidentally killed by rescuers. Both are risks assumed by the perpetrator of a predicate felony. If you attempt to commit or are engaged in committing one of those felonies, you are automatically responsible if someone dies.

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McDogger---thus the reason you USED to be a Prosecutor/Defense counselor--Your reasoning's are quite out of date to current laws for todays murder charges!!! Neither would be charged with 1st degree murder!!!

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I used to be UNTIL I retired, moron.

Do you have any authority for your opinion? Just pulling it out of your a$$ doesn't count.

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You've overlooked the attempt component of the California statute. And you overlooked the attempted kidnapping.

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@ McDogger...30 years in law enforcement and retired as a Deputy Chief of police. Just passed the bar last year.

During my years as a detective I investigated a convenience store robbery one time where 2 suspects entered a store, drew their weapons and demanded money.

1 of the suspects fell out with heart attack and died on scene. The 2nd suspect fled the scene. The dead suspect actually had ID on him and we put it together pretty quickly and got the 2nd suspect within a couple days.

We charged the 2nd suspect with felony murder and got the conviction but our case was SOOO clear cut.

If the GP case were real...I just see so many elements within the law that could be challenged such as kidnapping, actual lewd conduct etc..

as a prosecutor, I'm talking about a winnable case where the son (the only witness) might not be the best witness followed by a ton of defense motions that could literally go either way.

I agree, could he be charged...yes

Would I take it to court...no,






Sometimes when you want the devil, you have to go to hell and get him!

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