1) She was crying because she realized that the demon was really gone but she looked at something and her expression changed so I thought that she'd seen the demon again. Did anyone else notice this?
2) Was Rose pregnant? It seemed implied from the way she was rubbing her stomach and smiling.
What'd everyone else think of it? Did you enjoy the way it was written (the flashback reveal) and when did you figure it out?
I think in the bathroom, shortly after what I took as looking to see if she was fat yet and smiling that she wasn't, she did another home pregnancy test and it came back negative. Hence her extreme relief (right before none of it would matter anymore).
Are you talking about the scene in the hospital bed or the scene years later when she returns to the abandoned school and finds the furnace, where she apparently worshiped whatever it was, cold and dead. She then is outside screaming and crying and... credits.
I wanna know what was dead in the doorway right before Rose was killed! Looked like a person but also looked like a pile of bloody clothes.
That heap that looked like a pile of bloody clothes was the security guard.. I, too thought it clothes at first, but after rewinding and zooming in, I could see it was a security guard.
I'm very curious about the end sequence as well(like the OP questions)..was she crying because she'd failed to summon the demon that she so desperately wanted all along(the one she didnt want to be cast out by the priest in the hospital).. I saw it as her wanting the demon back so badly that as soon as she was released from mental hospital she immediately wanted to return to the campus basenent to summon the demon(hence why she decapitated the parents as an offering to the demon)..
(a) So, its possible that her wailing at the end was due to her not succeeding in bringing forth the demon via human sacrifice.
..OR..
(b) Is she wailing at the end because she'd unintentionally been overcome with the demon once the car got to the are of the campus..this unintended possession led her to murder the parents, and then take the heads to the basement.. then after having done so she leaves the campus and comes to her senses(demon again leaves her body), at which time the sudden realization of what the demon had caused her to do overwhelms her, and sends her into a wailing fit...
Both scenarios are possible, though I'd really love to hear what the movies creators intended the ending sequence to indicate(a or b)
The fact that the ending was so open ended is the problem. We as in the audience should not be having to figure it out! The story tellers job isn't to make us ponder what the heck happened but to tell a story with a resolution.
This trend in crappy open ended endings extends to A list pictures as well. How often have we left a theater and gone "Well what just happened?" Too often.
Agreed!!! I liked the movie then I was like wait...Is Emma Roberts KAT? or did the Demon invade Emma and when did Emma get involved with the school. Did I miss a time lapse?? I still liked it byt I HATE endings like that.
shareThere was a comment asking that as well about was Kat and Emma really the same person or just inhabited by the same demon. If Joan\Emma was possessed already why go to the school and attempt to summon the demon to possess her? The demon, assuming it had her in the mental hospital, was what drove her to kill and go back to the now abandoned school. OR maybe it did have her and the sacrifice, the heads, had to be performed but now the energy that once fueled the black arts was gone and so the demon left her\rejected her and thus she was left alone crying in the street.
No you did not miss anything. Everything about the ending is conjecture whcih is why the film fails. Artsy open endings can work in some instances, but as I have posted before, when the end is so open the rest of the movies falls through the hole then it is simply a poorly constructed end which in turn ruins the rest of the film.
Thank you much !!!! Finally a person with sense. I mean i like almost all kinds of genre and independants, foreign,,,(Except TRUE War movies and anything that stars a horse!) films but if you are going to tell a story don't leave me hanging. That's just laziness.
shareWelcome! It's a pet peeve of mine going on several years.
Not that having to think about a film afterwards is bad. Thinking about themes, the story, maybe the subtle analogies or it as over all allegorical tale is one thing. Wondering wtf just happened is another.
Are people really this dumb? Sorry, no offense, but it's extremely obvious that Kat and Joan are the same person. Kat spent 9 years in the mental hospital, and then killed a nurse and took her ID, which is where she got the name Joan. The ID with the picture of the real Joan is shown being held by Kat. There should be no confusion with this.
shareSo first of all....let's clarify the question of the pregnancy. What happened in the bathroom....guys are you listening?....was she got her period. That's why she was so happy. There was no pregnancy test involved and I guess unless your a women, you may not have identified with this part.
Second, The scenario A that was proposed was probably the most likely with a minor change. There was a flash sequence somewhere in the beginning where the girl in the institution sort of creeps over her back or something like this, which to me says that she is possessed. I do think she was crying because the demon was gone (cold furnace). I also think that she didn't escape but was possibly released. If the priest had exorcised her and she was no longer "sick", maybe they let her out. ?? I definitely think that she was sad when the priest got ride of the demon and that was why she went back, and brought a sacrifice. Also a hmmmmm? moment.
There was also another flash sequence where someone is strangled and then it shows an ID with the name "Joan", so am I to assume that the girl had killed someone and stole her ID and that's why they called her JOAN? This was confusing and apparently I'm not the only one as several of the reviews talk of 2 different girls when in fact they were suppose to be the same girl, only 9 years later. These things are not happening simultaneously as a lot of people think. They are the same person. We know this because of the shower scene. "Joan" has a bullet hole scar from getting shot 9 years earlier.
I think it will warrant another watch from me, which means they've done well. It had a very dark emotional tone that has left me needing to know more. I think it will make more sense the second time.
Great post! I went into this movie, knowing it had been reviewed well overall, but unsure of what to expect - I ended up giving it an 8. It would have been a 7, but the ending (Emma Roberts weeping in the snow) added another point for me.
Here's why: my interpretation (and I do think it's open to interpretation) is that she realized, after murdering several people as a child, after breaking out of the hospital and stealing someone's identity (good catch on the strangulation flashback - I thought maybe she'd been allowed to change her name, since she was a juvenile offender, even though that's not common in the US - I agree that she stole someone's ID and may have murdered them to do it), and traveling back to the scene of the crime, that the demon didn't exist. She was in the beginning stages of mental illness (it was clear her behavior had changed rather abruptly, based on the interaction with the headmaster who seemed genuinely fond of her and surprised at her odd questions) while at school. Rose's scary story planted the seeds of her delusion in her head (not Rose's fault). It grew and grew (those phone calls where the phone isn't heard ringing by anyone but her). She managed to hold onto this delusion for nine years, perhaps not receiving the proper treatment/medication, OR having another episode (contrary to general belief, psychotic disorders like Schizophrenia are not stable and have episodes of increased severity). To back up the mental illness theory - "Joan" had a VERY flat affect, poor eye contact, and poverty of speech. These are called "negative" symptoms in a diagnosis of Schizophrenia. The portrayal of persons with Schizophrenia in film is often just terrible - filthy homeless people OR superficially charming psycho killers. While many do end up homeless and/or unable to care for themselves (showering regularly, for example), that is not true across the board. I actually work in mental health and have an MS in clinical psych, and, with my interpretation, I did not find the portrayal of mental illness offensive or off-base (like I do with 90% of movies).
I also think her parents truly were dead, and this may have precipitated her first episode. The nurse and headmistress receive a phone call they discuss privately with Rose, then send Rose out of the home as far as possible to do labor that will keep her busy for hours. Shortly thereafter (not quickly enough to save them, unfortunately), the headmaster shows up with two police officers. I think her parents were found murdered, or in a car accident near the school that went unnoticed with the snow, where she could have walked the rest of the way. The film is vague here, but that's fine with me. I think she killed them, and the police were coming to get her (or at least notify her).
The door is locked when Rose finishes, ergo the two older women are already dead. Rose unknowingly finds a way in, takes a shower, discovers she's not pregnant by getting her period (I guess most of the posters here have never had a late period/pregnancy scare? Especially as a teen at a boarding school - she wouldn't have ready access to a pregnancy test).
Anyways, this is how I looked at it. Great film, I'll watch it again.
They're coming to get you, Barbara!
Some of you are absurd. Everything is there. If it was played linearly it would have been too cut and dry. The non-linear storytelling made it interesting. Some movies are made to make you think. Some are just escapist and don't require a lot of thinking. I felt this movie was up my alley; it didn't spoon feed you information and gave it to you sporadically where you're left to put things together. Just because a particular movie's intention was to make you think, but you didn't want to have to think, doesn't make the movie bad or lazy. It makes you lazy as a viewer. Have fun watching Fast and Furious sequels.
shareI really agree with you!!!! I find it laughable that so many are posting with such negative feedback because it didn't spoon feed the story, but it seems we're all talking about it!!!They've done something right. I also think that it is all there but you need to use your brain and I guess to some that might hurt.....
Great film!!!
In the scene where Rose teases an incredulous Kat about the nuns supposedly being hairless (especially their eyebrows), she claims that "Jen Darling's sister" found them worshiping the devil.
Then Kat, who sounds as if she's about to cry, asks a strange question: "Who told you?"
Rose pauses, confused, doesn't answer, and tells Kat to stay out of her room.
When Rose discovers Kat bowing in front of the furnace, possibly with singed eyebrows, and later actually moves a chair in front of her door to keep Kat out, the "Who told you?" takes on an entirely different meaning.
Everything we need to know IS there. The writing is excellent. And it's definitely a film that rewards multiple viewings. But if it isn't obvious that she's mourning the loss of the demon and her failed attempt at reunion at the end of the film, consider the film's title (The Blackcoat's Daughter) and tagline: "Abandoned as a child. Raised by the dark."
I don't think they let her out because of the strangulation scene you mentioned I took it as she stole Joan's identity and escaped.
And thanks for explaining the pregnancy question, I was explaining the movie to my dad before that so I didn't catch it.
That bloody heap was no security guard. Those were the heads of the nuns in pillow cases.
shareThanks! I didn't quite catch that since I had to explain to my dad what was going since he came in at that part I just saw her rubbing her stomach.
shareWell, I'm glad I decided to pop back in on this thread because there has been some great posts that I believe are dead on accurate regarding what all happened/or had happened(seen via flashbacks) throughout this movie.. its piqued my interest enough to make me decide sit down and give this movie a second viewing..and I agree with those who commented their thoughts on this movie quite likely is going to be better understood(more enjoyable) the second time around..
off to go watch now...
Let me know what you think after you've seen it again! I watched it twice (second time today after work), and was a little more torn between whether the demon existed or she had a psychotic episode of schizophrenia. I noticed its shape in more scenes, but it was still only visible to Kat, and other than her voice changing a bit (which can happen in real life, no demonic possession needed), there were no outward, observable manifestations to anyone else. However, SOMETHING showed her that her parents were dead - initially I thought she may have known about it already and blocked it out, or caused their deaths in some way ( since they were far enough away to "fly in", meaning maybe no one would notice if they were missing for a while), but now I'm stumped. Not in a bad way, lol.
Which means, if the demon existed and the possession really happened, it played her for the ultimate fool -promising she could live with it forever at the school, then abandoning her after she'd done all she could to please it. That's almost worse than her being mentally ill and all of those people dying in vain.
Would love to hear your feedback!
They're coming to get you, Barbara!
Wait, that was supposed to be Kat, too (Emma Roberts's character)? No wonder I was confused. I didn't understand any of it. If she wasn't still possessed at that point, which seemed to be indicated when the priest exorcised the demon, why would she kill Rose's parents? But if she was possessed then, what, she invited the demon back in? Then why was she crying at the end, as if she felt horrible about what she'd done?
shareActually, there are outward depictions of the demon. At least I thought so. First off, yes the changing of the voice. Pretty obvious. Second the distorted reflection in the bathroom. That wasn't Lst's point of view, it was ours/the audience's. Third, the levitation. Once again she wasn't seeing herself levitating, we the audience were seeing it and so was the priest. I totally get that sometimes in these movies it's left up in the air as to whether it's mental illness or actual possession. But I believe this movie pretty clearly stated the possession was real. The flashes of her contorted on the bed, sleeping with her arm upright, being pinned down under the sheets. Very clearly (although subtle) possession. I watched a second time and it just reinforces my thoughts on it.
shareThe levitation wasn't a complete sell for me since she was bound to the bed she could have thrust her abdomen upwards using the restraints as a sort of support. Maybe I'd have to see it again.
shareDid you watch the movie? The levitation is painfully obvious. The camera shots make that clear. You people are putting question marks where they don't belong.
shareIt really doesn't, she was contorting herself. Her voice changed, but that's a 100% provable phenomenon that can happen in real life (and since the many things in the movie are left to the imagination, I don't expect it to spoonfeed me info about that). There were brief shots of the demon for the viewer, but they were during Kat's sections, not any other characters'. "Joan" doesn't even see it in any way except flashbacks. There is no exposition about that basement or furnace, no legend, no other tragedies described.
Again, I'm on the fence about whether the demon existed, or whether she was a sick kid. I believe it was meant to be ambiguous, and it's a fun conversation. I've seen it twice. There's no need to snap at people because you've decided on a theory. Try watching it again from the mental health angle.
They're coming to get you, Barbara!
In real life, she could not fake levitation like that. She was not contorted and her head was up off the pillow so arching back wouldn't help anyway and with her arms down to her sides strapped in, yeah, the way it was shown, she was clearly lifted by supernatural forces.
I tend to think the story works better if it is made clear in the end because then I can empathize more with her and feel her tragedy.
It's a little hard for me to empathize with her knowing that she WANTED the demon. It was like she was happy about doing all those horrible things to people.
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I agree with SaRc. In my opinion all the classic signs of a demon possessing a person are shown to us starting very early in the movie. When Kat is talking with the priest she sees the demon in the corner of his room. Kat is also making sure that the priest is gone from the school for the break. When the priest tells Kat that he will only return after the break, Kat smiles at the demon. From that scene forward it was pretty clear to me what would happen during the break...
When Rose comes to the school at night and finds Kat in the basement or what ever it was where the heater was Kat's bowing down is not humane like at all. By the way I found it a bit funny in a dark way that she was worshipping the heater or fire, nice symbol for hell there. During night she again twists herself into a position that for sure not many if any of us are able to. Kat can not pray when asked to. Instead she starts vomiting some weird white stuff. Her voice is not her own. Her whole appearance changes from her being a little singing angel. In the end she is very pale, her hair is messy, dark circles around her eyes etc. And then there is the scene where the priest is conducting an exorcism and we see Kat levitating and the demon leaving her. This is what I can remember now after seeing the movie a few days back. So my opinion is she was clearly possessed but also not stable enough to fight the demon off.
About what Rose sees in the stairs, someone here said it would have been a security guard. I don't know was there a security guard, I sort of hope there would have been... anyway I am pretty sure that Rose saw two heads wrapped in sheets. After stabbing the two sisters Kat goes to get a sheet or something similar, then she continues to behead the sisters. She wraps the heads in the sheet to take them in front of the heater, but hey, there is still one lady alive in the building... so Kat or more precisely the demon stops on her or his way to the fire to finish her off.
The stabbing scenes by the way were a bit too realistic for me to watch...
About what Rose sees in the stairs, someone here said it would have been a security guard. I don't know was there a security guard, I sort of hope there would have been... anyway I am pretty sure that Rose saw two heads wrapped in sheets. After stabbing the two sisters Kat goes to get a sheet or something similar, then she continues to behead the sisters. She wraps the heads in the sheet to take them in front of the heater, but hey, there is still one lady alive in the building.
I'm with you about the stabbing scenes. Way too graphic. Some may argue, but I personally just don't think it's necessary. I like movies that can be scary without relying on gratuitous violence. That's the main reason I hated this movie, but partly was because I didn't understand it and didn't see any redeeming qualities, but now I think I understand better, and that helps a little. But I don't think it's necessary to show so much violence. You can imply it, then cut away. Just not my thing.
share[deleted]
I have a theory.
I believe that "Joan" didn't intend to go back to the school to murder anyone. When Bill asked her where she was headed, she originally said Portsmith, which we see on the map as further away than the school.
I think two things convinced her to go through with it.
Firstly, when Bill gives her the speech about seeing God in her, I believe she could easily interpret that as something else (Devil, Demon, whatever. Something otherworldly.)
Secondly, when she sees the picture of Rose and then retreats to the bathroom, she laughs, as if realising that this is preordained and that the demon is willing her back to him. That's when she takes the knife from the restaurant.
I thought the movie was very good, regardless of its open ending. I mean, this is why we're all here dissecting it and interpreting all the minute details.
The ending I definitely see as her not getting her "demon" back and finally realising that it's gone forever. Whether that means, the meds she is on are working, or her psychotic episode was just that, an episode, or whether it's actually a demon, I don't think there is a clear answer and I don't think there should be.
That's actually good theory one!
There's something wrong with Esther.
You, sir, are right on the money.
shareThe ambiguity makes this film what it is.
I figured it out the first time I saw Emma's character, "Joan."