Suicide looks little suspicious, but a murder is even more implausible. - Soaked in Bleach (2015) Discussion

[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

The problem is that people like you don't do any research into a subject at all and just pretend that you know everything. If you did the most very basic of research you would have realized that Tom Grant has accused Coutney Love and the male nanny, Micahel "Cali" DeWitt of murder. Did you even watch the movie?

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[–] cpzlcu 10 years ago

Yeah, I watched it yesterday, what's your idea on the murder?

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[–] yossi_s 10 years ago

i second this.
its hard for me to imagine the course of the murder here...

was the heroin injected be4 or after he was shot?

if be4, then who injected it? he did or the murderer? either option would be kinda off.

the idea that he injected it is possible but highly unlikely IMO. assuming he didn't regularly injected himself with such high amounts, the only possibility i see is that he did it under a gun threat from the murderer (btw finger marks on the syringe? were there any?). but then i would imagine that he would resist and would try to find a way to stop this.

if the murderer injected the heroin while he was still alive, then i would expect to see signs of a fight.

now, maybe he was injected after being shot, wouldn't his heart stop soon after the shot? and then the heroin wouldn't have circulated through his body much, which i guess is something that could have been realized through the investigation?

and even if we leave that question alone. i still don't get the scenario of a murder.
the room wasn't messy with blood or shotgun pallets, which means that either he shot himself, or he was shot in a very convenient position for the murderer to make it look like a suicide.
he obviously wasn't moved around the room after the shot, so how did the murderer got him the that convenient position, put the gun inside his mouth, and shot him with no resistance?

im not trying to debunk, im just trying to understand.

edit:
i see this is somewhat answered here
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3253624/board/thread/244531839
it mainly says there "we don't know"

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

if the murderer injected the heroin while he was still alive, then i would expect to see signs of a fight.

It was noted that the house was thoroughly cleaned. The house was always a pig sty. There would have been no time to have cleaned the house as the house was empty at the time the body was discovered. So someone who lived there cleaned the house exceptionally well after Kurt was dead and before his body was found. That could be because the cleaning was an attempt to destroy evidence of a struggle.

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[–] yossi_s 10 years ago

well that's information i haven't read yet. Montage of heck home videos do point out that the house wasn't very tidy (i don't even know if that's the same house). but i don't know, they were obviously rich enough to hire a maid, tho this might be a problem with the drugs around the house.
the recreation of house scenes in this movie do show a tidy house but i never got the message that the house was thoroughly cleaned.
even if it was, many crime scenes that were supposedly thoroughly cleaned have traces that the police can pick up, tho we know the SPD were a bunch of morons back then.
well the conclusion is that everything is possible, and we cant really tell.
but one thing is for sure, if its a murder, then im very surprised by how well this was planned out, especially given the people involved. most of those people kurt hanged around with do not strike me as very capable and smart. a smart good hit man makes more sense

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[–] cpzlcu 10 years ago

Yeah thanks for the link, that was a long read, but I almost read it all.

Looks like a "we don't know" thread indeed, but there are some interesting thoughts.

Also am I the only one who doesn't see Courtney as the evil manipulative girl, quite the opposite, I think she's very fragile, sad and lonely and would be very easy to manipulate her and play with her feelings instead.

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[–] SwampyDonkey 10 years ago

She's a bitter, controlling slag. Overwhelming evidence she was involved and a tragedy that the investigation was so poorly handled.

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

Yeah thanks for the link, that was a long read, but I almost read it all.

Looks like a "we don't know" thread indeed, but there are some interesting thoughts.

Also am I the only one who doesn't see Courtney as the evil manipulative girl, quite the opposite, I think she's very fragile, sad and lonely and would be very easy to manipulate her and play with her feelings instead.

You obviously don't know a thing about Courtney.

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[–] NYultra 10 years ago

im not trying to debunk, im just trying to understand.

edit:
i see this is somewhat answered here
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3253624/board/thread/244531839
it mainly says there "we don't know"

I'm trying to understand too and I think I have the most plausible scenario if it were a murder. This is my post from that thread. Let me know what you think.

My idea is that it was part of her overall alibi. Hire a PI and send him on a wild goose chase while you already have the murder planned out, then have the PI find the body. Except the PI didn't find the body so she had to go to plan B and call the electrician to fix the alarm where the body was to be discovered.

TO answer the original post:

I think she had Cali shoot Kurt up and OD him and set up Kurt for the "suicide." She knew Kurt's whereabouts the whole time and Cali was the next closest person that Kurt trusted and shot up with. Cali is still a mystery to me. I don't know if he is capable of this, but he has a history with Courtney and she took him for the ride with her when she married Kurt being the "nanny" or more like the heroine assistant.

These to me is the most feasible murder scenario and entirely plausible as it has been done like this before and their a giant MOTIVE for Courtney.

This is after reading watching and listening to everything I could about this subject. I thought it was suicide for a while until I started reading into it. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it's possible foulpay considering the available info in my opinion. The scenario of a suicide seems possible to me also. It's not like most people want to go around accusing people of murder. Spouses murdering each other for financial gain happens. Many times it includes hiring of a hit man, overdosing or poisoning. Crazier things have happened. If you put the pieces together there is a case is be investigated, at least in my opinion.

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[–] michealoduibhir 10 years ago

I think the central hypothesis is generally that Kurt shot up, someone topped him up to a lethal dose (implication is usually Cali - himself a heroin user and he was at the house a lot that week despite never finding Kurt), then staged his body with the gun and pulled the trigger.

This explains the lack of spatter and exit wounds, because it would have been shooting a coagulating corpse rather than a living body. It also explains the enormous amounts of heroin in his blood. It finally explains how he could have been shot, despite being full of heroin and in the midst of a high when he supposedly pulled the trigger himself - something I can see being quite unlikely.

Slightly more plausible to me is that he was possibly manic or coming down off a manic episode and depressed about getting high while getting high, bumped himself up again mid-high and shot himself with the gun not long after.

The in-between could be Cali found Kurt when he died of an OD and set everything else up to sensationalise a senseless death and provide Courtney Love with her ever-sought-after "spin", while removing any doubt of foul play - something her recordings lead me to believe she's paranoid enough and narcissistic enough to worry about.

We'll never know what happened but this documentary left me with a big ole' 'what the hell' about Courtney Love.

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

It could also be that he was drugged. The cops found a root beer can with liquid in it by the body but dumped it out before it could be tested. One theory is that it contained rohypnol and that the killers doped his drink to incapacitate him and then shot him up with heroin and staged the scene.

Your second theory is completely impossible. The heroin dose alone was lethal, as now admitted by the SPD. So he would have died within minutes just from the heroin. He would have gone unconscious within seconds. No time to do any of the actions that were required of him. For some reason this is the hardest part for naysayers to understand. It is physically impossible for someone to shoot up the same level of heroin and do the actions that Kurt allegedly performed. It simply can not be done. He had like 20 seconds tops and with each passing second his mental state would be drastically deteriorating.

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[–] xyle666 9 years ago

was the heroin injected be4 or after he was shot?

if be4, then who injected it? he did or the murderer? either option would be kinda off.

the idea that he injected it is possible but highly unlikely IMO. assuming he didn't regularly injected himself with such high amounts, the only possibility i see is that he did it under a gun threat from the murderer (btw finger marks on the syringe? were there any?). but then i would imagine that he would resist and would try to find a way to stop this.
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havnt watched this movie yet, about to turn it on and was reading reviews and came upon this. isnt it widely known that he was a heavy opiate addict?

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now, maybe he was injected after being shot, wouldn't his heart stop soon after the shot? and then the heroin wouldn't have circulated through his body much, which i guess is something that could have been realized through the investigation?
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im not good at quoting obviously, but if he was shot and then injected, it wouldn't go anywhere except pool in the area it was put.

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[–] LaLa_LaLa_Lola 10 years ago

Fanaticslike Sly Vaping Guy are Quick to accuse others of not doing research yet doesn't offer anything substantial. Ok so courtney and cali killed him according to you. How? Logistically. Did cali overpower him, tie him up then have him shoot himself? And did he do this elaborate plan in between shooting up himself? If you know it all,tell us how this murder went down.

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[–] NYultra 10 years ago

Sure he comes off abrasive and other just come here to mock and argue. I'm not into really into that and also don't like people condescending others. I'd just like to communicate without that about this.

I think if he were found just overdosed I'd believe it more. I actually think that might have happened eventually. Unfortunately, Courtney hired tom Grant seemed to secretly record her arousing suspicions. She thought she hired him to manipulate, but he and Rosemary Carroll really are the ones who put bring it to light. Both mistakes by Courtney. Rosemary Carroll has never came out and spoken publicly about this.

I just don't buy the suicidal thing completely. There too much versus 1 person saying the contrary. Rosemary Carroll said Kurt wasn't suicidal who had direct contact stating that Kurt wasn't suicidal, but wanted a divorce and to make a will without Courtney. Also, Janet Billing about the Rome overdose had direct contact with Cobain after he awoke from his coma and said:

"A note was found, but Kurt insisted it wasn’t a suicide note. He just took all of his and Courtney’s money and was going to run away and disappear.”

Kurt Cobain told this woman this in confidence and she's on the record against what Courtney said publicly. However "privately" to Courtney, but being secretly recorded by tom Grant saying the opposite and actually confirming the above Janet Billig quote.

That note stated he wanted to leaver her and Det. Terry told her to rid of it prompting her to burn it - according to Courtney herself. Only Courtney said it was a suicide attempt after he was found dead in April. Rome was March 3rd, that an entire month between alleged "suicide attempts". More of an indication that he wasn't determined to kill himself. Even the doctor in Rome confirmed that it was not a suicide attempt:

“We can usually tell a suicide attempt,” Dr. Galletta said. "He did not seem like a young man who wanted to end it all.” (Melody Maker March 12th 1994.)

So that's three credible eyewitnesses that will have to testify in court. There are many more that would testify in court that Kurt wasn't suicidal to convince a jury. What about the rehab center he "escaped"? Those medical reports would have to confirm that he was suicidal, If he he had escaped and those doctor's felt he was suicidal in any way, they would have acted accordingly.

Even the March 18 domestic disturbance support that Kurt was not suicidal. Only Courtney gave the false perception that he was locked in the room with a gun and suicidal. He wasn't even holding a gun at any point, he was just lock in his room and getting away form Courtney, so Courtney initially lied to the police and this is also confirmed in an official report:

"Cobain,Curt stated that he had locked himself in the room to keep away from ---------. Hecontinued to state that he is not suicidal and doesn’t want to hurt himself.

“After further interviewing -------- -------- stated that she did not see him with a gun, and he did not say he was going to kill himself. However when he locked himself in the room, would not open the door, and knowing that he had access to guns, she contacted 911 for his safety and well being. All parties were interviewed and released and Cobain left -------------. The disturbance was verbal only.”

I'm giving you some evidence to support that he wasn't suicidal that would convince any reasonable jury. Would would Courtney have? A false police report and her testimony that can by easily contradicted? Unless anyone ever thought that Kurt was hell bent on killing himself, you would have more testimony directly saying that and you just don't.

He wanted a divorce and wanted to get away form his label and Nirvana that is his band mates at least for a while. He wanted to get away from them and they were trying to suck him back in. He was walking away from a lot of money that a lot of people were dependent on. They needed him to stay in Nirvana, they weren't worried about him being suicidal. They were worried that there cash cow was walking away. The interventions were a farce and they were Courtney's idea. They thought he had a heroin problem, but half of them were addicts. This is what seems obvious to me.

Believing he wanted to run away and shoot himself is just not as convincing just based on Courtney Love, random lyrics or diary entries that he wrote who knows when.

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[–] yossi_s 10 years ago

well i don't have time to read it all now and write down a replay about it all.

whatever happened, either way, Kurt IMO has been driven to his death, he was pushed over the edge.
trying to understand how Kurt really felt inside, and his mindset painted me the picture of a guy that is capable of being happy, he was very talented, ambitious, and managed to achieve his goals quite well. and that is the opposite of someone that is really depressed.
depression makes you completely disabled, takes away all of your motivation, and that wasn't Kurt.

it's just that Kurt always had *beep* people around that really brought him down, whether its his family, and later on, the people he hanged around with such as Courtney, Dylan, Cali, etc.
those people seems to me like a very bad influence, leeches, ones that couldn't be trusted whatsoever, who made his drug problem worse and worse.
everybody let him down all the time, he couldn't trust anyone and was alone.
also, seeing how he talked about Courtney at the start of the relationship, he was really madly in love, and when it stated collapsing, he probably was heart broken, and that could be really hard to deal with, especially for the first time.

now, the fact that people around him says he wasn't suicidal is irrelevant IMO.
i was in similar situations in my life so i know it very well.
many of those suicidal people may not project it outside, there were many suicides that no one saw coming, and when it happen people around said that they didn't notice anything that would suggest that the person was suicidal.
projecting that you are suicidal in many times is a cry for help, which he didn't want maybe.
and that fits IMO with Kurt's personality, being a quite guy who trusts no one, he wouldn't share or show those feelings, especially, since he was really tired of people researching him all the time and sort of controlling him, he really felt that people around him could only hurt him and control him (friends, media, public).

so to me, it could be a suicide, but his life was basically taken by some1 else, he was mentally murdered.

all of this has one exception, and that is the fact that he was under the influence of drugs, which i have no idea how effects everything. the only thing i do understand, is that like depression, it steals you mentally, you are not you anymore but in this case the drug, any reasonable judgment is gone. so in this sense it doesn't matter who Kurt was and how he felt, the drug controlled him and caused him to kill himself, maybe.

as for to PI, it could be an alibi, possible, but very surprising to me, cuz it too smart IMO.
or she just wanted to know if he was cheating? that's very likely i think.

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[–] CtlAltDel 10 years ago

If you were going to murder him and make it look like a suicide why not just let the heroin OD do the job? It was a massive dose. Why then use the shotgun too? Was this in case the heroin didn't work? I guess I'm thinking it through like a sober, normal person though, and the not the junky who probably staged the 'suicide'

------------------------------------------------------------------------

All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] cpzlcu 10 years ago

Yeah, not to mention a shotgun shot is so louder the risk of being caught would be a lot higher.

Also, considering almost everybody who believe Kurt was killed think that Courtney was involved, the idea of her choosing to trust a junkie friend to do the dirty job and keep the secret, with all the other safer options she could have doesn't make more sense.

What makes it even more unreal is the fact that if so many people think he was killed and Courtney was involved and they see that fact as obvious, imagine people with more knowledge than us, like the Seattle police department (it looks like they didn't do a proper job on the scene, but they know a lot more than us for sure) or other people involved, they would be even more sure if it was really that obvious and Courtney wouldn't be free today, considering she's the prime suspect too.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

Added to this Cali was also Kurt's friend. I know most people don't believe this but from all accounts I've heard it is true. Also, despite what Tom Grant has said Cali and Courtney were never a couple. He has Frances' name tattooed on his arm. That would be very odd behaviour if he did indeed murder her father.

That's a lie. Kurt wanted Cali gone because he was using heroin while supposedly watching Frances. As usual, you hear Courtney say something and you accept it as truth. It was Courtney who said that Cali and Kurt were best friends. That is a LIE.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

That's from Cali, not Courtney.

You failed on your first sentence. The claim that Cali was Kurt's best friend was made by Courtney and was recorded on tape by Tom Grant.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] NYultra 10 years ago

Yeah, about that shotgun blast. Courtney was recorded confirming that she knew Cali was at the house when Kurt died. She said something to the nature of "Cali must have heard the gun shot, poor Cali.." Then he conveniently leaves the state/scene of the crime (she had a hard time remembering what state also) to go to "rehab" which she paid him 30K for. What rehab is this?

Courtney knew where Kurt was the whole time - at home.

Also am I the only one who doesn't see Courtney as the evil manipulative girl, quite the opposite, I think she's very fragile, sad and lonely and would be very easy to manipulate her and play with her feelings instead.

Really???? LOL

So, you just come off as another Courtney apologist.

Also, considering almost everybody who believe Kurt was killed think that Courtney was involved, the idea of her choosing to trust a junkie friend to do the dirty job and keep the secret, with all the other safer options she could have doesn't make more sense.

He isn't her "junkie friend" he's her ex-boyfriend who she took along for her ride from rags to riches. He's completely on Courtney's side, no doubt about it. I also don't doubt that he would do her biddings, but there is more to learn.

What makes it even more unreal is the fact that if so many people think he was killed and Courtney was involved and they see that fact as obvious, imagine people with more knowledge than us, like the Seattle police department (it looks like they didn't do a proper job on the scene, but they know a lot more than us for sure) or other people involved, they would be even more sure if it was really that obvious and Courtney wouldn't be free today, considering she's the prime suspect too.

Unreal? Seriously, the SPD knows less than you think since they never truly investigated. They perform a half assed job and won't reopen the case because it would expose their impotence. They happen to be a very troubled and corrupt police dept. at that time. Through the whole search Courtney regularly spoke to Det. Terry, despite the fact she filed a false police report.

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[–] cpzlcu 10 years ago

Really???? LOL

So, you just come off as another Courtney apologist.

Not an apologist, I don't know her, but I know the types, I know some girls very similar to Courtney, one of them is a close friend of mine, heavy drug user, I know her since like forever, she was with me in Roma in 1994 to see Nirvana too, and she behave very similar to her, the truth behind this behavior is that they are very sad and emotional and even when they tell a lie they do it emotionally in the moment for a reason so when you know it's even more easier to interact and connect with them, and you can trust their emotional behavior in a way, because it's real in the moment. Btw I know it may be difficult to fully understand this and most of all this is going OT but I repeat, it's not to defend her because I don't know what she did, but I know people who behave very similar like her, and the pattern behind their behavior is very similar too.

Courtney knew where Kurt was the whole time - at home.

This is one of the things that goes on the suspicious side, it's indeed very odd nobody checked the house for days.

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

If you were going to murder him and make it look like a suicide why not just let the heroin OD do the job? It was a massive dose. Why then use the shotgun too? Was this in case the heroin didn't work? I guess I'm thinking it through like a sober, normal person though, and the not the junky who probably staged the 'suicide'

Because Courtney and Cali tried using drugs to kill him in Rome and it didn't work. Before Rome Courtney also tried another time to kill him with drugs. He survived. So the gun was likely used to make sure he couldn't survive the third and final attempt.

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[–] cpzlcu 10 years ago

This is another thing I don't really understand.

If it was that obvious that Courtney tried to kill him twice or more, how is that even possible that Kurt never acknowledge or report that?

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

If it was that obvious that Courtney tried to kill him twice or more, how is that even possible that Kurt never acknowledge or report that?

I believe after the Rome incident that Kurt began to suspect something wasn't right. I don't think he suspected anything after the first attempt. If you go back and look at a timeline of events you see Kurt calling his attorney to have Courtney taken out of the will and then the Rome incident. The Rome incident was Courtney and Cali's reaction to the news that Kurt was having Courtney removed from the will. So they immediately sought to kill him before he could finalize it. We know from Courtney's own mouth that she waited up to an hour after discovering Kurt and before calling an ambulance.

When the Rome incident failed to kill Kurt Courtney and Cali then concocted the final plan that would prove to result in Kurt's death.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] cpzlcu 10 years ago

I believe after the Rome incident that Kurt began to suspect something wasn't right.

Yeah, I guess I would too.

The Rome incident was Courtney and Cali's reaction to the news that Kurt was having Courtney removed from the will.

What was the Courtney motive for the previous attempt to kill him?

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

What was the Courtney motive for the previous attempt to kill him?

We don't know. However, it could be that Kurt told her he was leaving.

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[–] Seth_Rogue_One 10 years ago

I mean, murder? By who? Was somebody already there with him who Kurt trusted or somebody suddenly arrived in the greenhouse and killed him? How? There are no signs of any fight or struggle or other injuries on Kurt body.

Either by Courtney or Dylan, Courtney paid for Dylan's heroin and apartment after Kurt died, a very big possible payment for either the hit or hush up money

The fact that Dylan conviniently never took the Private Investigator to the green room where Kurt lied dead when showing him around Kurt's house leads to you thinking that he either knew something or was directly involved

Why is obvious, Kurt was gonna divorce Courtney leaving her nearly broke

A plausible scenario is Dylan coming to Kurts house and giving him heroin seemingly as a friendly gesture but in reality just so that he couldn't struggle back even if he wanted to

And when he was fcked up shoot him up with even more heroin so that he would OD BUT Dylan got scared that he wasn't gonna die from it as he's OD'd before and maybe Kurt was still awake enough to talk and was like "you trying to kill me boyyyy?" and he freaked out and realised that Kurt had that rifle laying about

So he positioned that and blew his brains out and put it down to make it look like Kurt shot himself

Either way, the police screwed up majorly by not doing an actual investigation about the matter and deeming it a suicide the minute they got there

FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS!!!

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

Not Dylan, Cali. It's always been Cali. We know from his actions that he knew Kurt was dead. He was at the house. He wrote the note and left it at the stairs to imply Kurt was alive and at the house. Then he flew up to be with Courtney so the house could be empty when the electricians would come and discover Kurt's body the next day.

Dylan may have discovered Kurt's body and chose to remain silent but he wasn't part of the murder.

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[–] Seth_Rogue_One 10 years ago

Feck off, in the end we don't know sh!t because the police didn't investigate the crime, and you looking at some biased documentaries and drawing conclusions off of that does not make you an expert on the subject

FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS!!!

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

Feck off, in the end we don't know sh!t because the police didn't investigate the crime, and you looking at some biased documentaries and drawing conclusions off of that does not make you an expert on the subject

You may not know sh!t but other people who have actually taken the time to research the case know a hell of a lot more than you do.

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[–] marcfischetti 10 years ago

OK, I'm going to wade in here and put across my point of view, and please read what I have just said.. 'My point of view'.
I was the same age as Kurt Cobain when he died. I followed and loved his music, he was an amazing artist who rocked my world in the early 90's and I saw Nirvana live in the UK on several occasions from Bleach onwards. I also dug Hole (pun intended) and Courtney Love. I followed the music press religiously and kept track of what was happening. It was a thrilling time for music.
At the time that thought I knew how Kurt felt and empathised with him on a personal level, I didn't idolise him, but he really represented the generation of the time, the numbness, the disaffection, the pain. I suffer from clinical depression and used drugs to self medicate.
What I'm trying to get at here is I felt I knew him, and he did affect my life with his words and music and I will never forget how that made me feel.
Of course I really knew nothing of what he was actually going through, it has transpired that Cobain was a very complex and layered person, he was in pain, confused, ambitious yet struggling with fame, tortured and totally and utterly messed up, drugs do that to you kids. He and Courtney where obviously co-dependant and blaming one for the others addiction is absurd. I too have been in and out of rehab in the past and you honestly only have yourself to blame for your addiction, and only you can decide to get better, this can not be over emphasised. Bottom line, Kurt was an addict, Courtney was an addict and still is. She clearly got clean in the mid 90's and subsequently looked great and seemed to be doing very well but at some point she seems to have taken another downward spiral and is still in her abyss.
Now, I saw Nirvana several times and yes Kurt seemed to me to be set in classic junky mode. The Bleach tour he was energetic, thrilling, and Kurt seemed genuinely happy to be there. Over the various subsequent tours I saw him physically and mentally deteriorate as the drugs took hold, and when I saw him last play he was a shell of himself, there was an intensity that replaced the fun, and the tension of whether he would ever get through the set made for one amazing show, I will never forget it.
Shortly after Kurt's death saw Hole on the Live Through This Tour and Courtney was a mess, she wore no knickers under a skimpy dress and threw herself into the audience.. she had track marks on her arms. I was invited to the backstage party after the show as my then girlfriend knew one of Courtney's hangers on. The whole entourage were out of it, but then again so where we.
OK, so why the name checking and showing off, you're going to ask. Well unfortunately I saw two extremely talented individuals, albeit Kurt on a genius level, who had both succumbed to substance abuse in order to mask their feelings and subsequently burn out their talent, its just sad and realistic and not glamorous or artistic. They where junkies, this is a FACT.
All the other FACTS that are presented in this documentary, and also by the way in A Montage of Heck cannot be taken too seriously or believed as creditable source evidence. All these pages of analysing made previously are based on what? Facts presented by a private investigator cashing in on fame who may or may not be on the level. A dodgy autopsy. Police trying to cover their hashed up tracks, a lawyer that doesn't speak to the media, a junky best friend. (Junkies don't have friends by the way, just dealers), misinformation about the ryhipnol in Rome (Suicide attempt or not, Kurt didn't down the drugs with Champaign to party), phone calls by an obviously out of it Courtney, I mean how much of the so called facts do you really believe are true or accurate, can you honestly decide a case by a couple of documentaries and 'witness accounts', are you really so naive to believe these are facts. How accurate is the evidence?
Life is indeed wierder than fiction. In my drugs hell I experienced some crazy f'ed up s*&t and I wasn't a rock star with a thousand hangers on and millions of adoring fans, Kurt Cobain's life was imperceivable for anyone to understand and indeed no one ever will.
I dunno, I've been round the block a few times, saw the decline of a great artist, and it made me sad. I see Kurt as a unique and wasted talent, and I want to believe that he didn't kill himself. To me he was capable of great, wonderful, twisted and tortured insight. He was sad and lonely and in a place that only addiction will drag you to and it didn't surprise me when he finally pulled the trigger, everyone was shocked, but not surprised.
Oh wait, I forgot about the amount of heroin blah blah blah, the shell casing, the blah blah blah, the caps placed back on the blah blah because they are FACTS right. Don't believe in everything you hear, do not believe that just because its been stated that it is grounded truth. I reckon he'd have a little chuckle at these threads, including mine, if, that is, he would have actually cared.
Just because you,re paranoid don't mean they're not after you.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] marcfischetti 10 years ago

Thanks Zoot and it's great to keep this interesting thread cordial. I remember that when Kurt died, there was absolutely no question that it was anything but suicide. The murder theory first came about with the Nick Broomfield doc 'Kurt and Courtney',
All of these documentaries raise interesting points and theories but for me the true thrill of seeing these films are for the interviews with Kurt and the previously unseen footage, especially on 'Montage of Heck', god I've waited 20 years to see a proper film about nirvana containing their actual music, that apart from 'The Year that Punk Rock Broke', which is another great film. Let's face it if your an admirer and a fan, anything about Kurt, Courtney or Nirvana is compulsive viewing.
Back to the point of this thread, I have another issue I wish to bring forward. So Kurt and Courtney where going through, or intending to divorce and Kurt's estate was worth billions (according to Grant.. exaggeration me thinks, Google is worth 12 billion, Greece is 13 billion in debt, but he is a 'reputable PI and we must believe everything he says in order to assume Courtney killed Kurt), now even if they went through with the divorce, at minimum Courtney would still aim to receive millions (let's live in reality, or even if you choose to side with Grant's billions), enough money for even a greedy malicious calculating junky (assuming she was but as I previously stated I believe she was a sad lonely and yes vulnerable addict)
She gained to receive enough money for 100 lifetimes of sex and drugs and rock n roll designer shoes and Malibu homes. Why the hell would she commit an act of murder on Kurt Cobain the father of her child and risk a possible jail lifetime sentence. Come on guys, look at the big picture!
Courtney love was and is an intelligent, conniving, sassy rock-chick who married a rock star, in the grand scheme of the universe, they truly deserved each other. Could you honestly see Kurt marrying any one but Courtney Love? What perhaps a super model, a stripper, or a groupie??? They where perfect together. It was a marriage made in Rock n Roll heaven! A lot of women marry for gain, money, status, fame, a green card, that doesn't make her any different from them.
If you want to see pure evil incarnate in blonde, a fine example of messed up junky self destructiveness is Nancy, Nancy Spungeon was a leach who most definitely had a negative effect on Sid Vicious. He was a not too bright shy teenager from a very poor background, who could hardly play bass who, just happened to get a late entry into one of the most influential bands of all time. Please trail through Youtube and pick up any interview with Sid and Nancy and make up your own minds, no comparison between Kurt and Sid and Courtney and Nancy.
Irony no. 1, Love had a bit part in the biopic Sid and Nancy, as Nancy's friend, she very nearly got the part of Nancy but was beaten to the post.
Irony no. 2, When Courtney tells the investigator that Kurt checks into hotels under the name Simon Ritchie..that's Sid's real name.
Oh, and before anyone accuses me of being a Love lover, well I believe that unfortunately there are only victims in this story, victims of fame, greed, hunger, money and eventually addiction, that's all.

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

now even if they went through with the divorce, at minimum Courtney would still aim to receive millions, enough money for even a greedy malicious calculating junky (assuming she was but as I previously stated I believe she was a sad lonely and yes vulnerable addict)
She gained to receive enough money for 100 lifetimes of sex and drugs and rock n roll designer shoes and Malibu homes. Why the hell would she commit a dumb act of murder on Kurt contain the father of her child and a possible jail lifetime sentence. Come on guys, look at the big picture!

You are incorrect. They had a prenup so she would not get any of Kurt's wealth. The only thing she would keep is the two homes/properties because they were in her name. Kurt was also writing her out of his will. Nobody questions why he would do this. Why do you write someone out of your will? My assumption is that Kurt feared she would try to kill him so he wanted to make sure that if she did she still would not receive a dime. However, she was able to kill him before he went through with it and so she got everything.

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[–] marcfischetti 10 years ago

OK.. FACTS, show me a copy of the prenup of their wedding, or some solid proof of this, and please, no he said she said, the lawyer said but wont talk in public, a friend said, that is called Here-say and is worst than tabloid gossip .. where is the solid proof please? Kurt was writing her out of the will. OK so apart from perhaps you actually knew Kurt and he specifically told you 'Sly Vaping Guy, me old chucker, I much prefer a good cigarette, but hey ho I diverse, Mr Vaping, or should I call you Sly? You know my loverly wife Mrs Love, I'm thinking of' wel you get my picture. and even if you told me he told you it's also here-say. I am not being antagonistic, well maybe just a little, but I am honestly intrigued by your source of this information, oh god I even said please.
I remember the wedding and if my old drug addled memory serves me well they got married on a beach.. Malibu? Kurt wore pyjamas, it was all very last minute short notice, grunge how he hated that word, but so did the punks, it was.. informal, oh go google it I am going on memory alone. So Pyjamas and wot not, but they managed to have a lawyer on hand to organise all the paperwork and a prenup. Dude they where out of it on drugs most days, whilst being creative and playing music, and having all the fun they could, they also arranged their estate and financial affairs. Plus if Courtney was so manipulative WHY DID SHE EVEN AGREE TO SIGN A PRENUP!!!
No wait, she decided in advance to sign a prenup but.....in the future I will kill my husband before we divorce so there is no problem. If she was in control, why not just disagree with Kurt, he was not a selfish man, he can be accused of many faults but selfishness to loved ones, and he obviously loved Courtney..

WHY NOT JUST TELL HIM TO SCREW HIS PRENUP, save having to stage a complex murder as he may have made a prenup and he talked about leaving her out of her will.

Noooo murder would be so much more logical.

BIG PICTURE, REALISTIC,

Just because you're .. etc. etc.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 10 years ago

OK.. FACTS, show me a copy of the prenup of their wedding, or some solid proof of this, and please, no he said she said, the lawyer said but wont talk in public, a friend said, that is called Here-say and is worst than tabloid gossip ..

Grant recorded Courtney talking about it. Rosemary Carroll admitted it but can't talk about until the case is reopened because Courtney made her sign a confidentiality agreement. Grant also recorded Courtney admitting the confidentiality agreement. However, if the case is reopened then the confidentiality agreement becomes null and void as they can not be used to protect criminal behavior and then Rosemary can publicly talk about it.

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[–] NYultra 10 years ago

OK.. FACTS, show me a copy of the prenup of their wedding, or some solid proof of this, and please, no he said she said, the lawyer said but wont talk in public, a friend said, that is called Here-say and is worst than tabloid gossip .. where is the solid proof please?

You really are rambling a lot and not making much sense.

You aren't going to get it. The prenup is not available to the public, but it definitely exists. When Courtney sued Krist and Dave for sole ownership of Nirvana LLC, during discovery she was forced to produce the prenup.

Last week, the defendants succeeded in forcing Love to turn over the prenuptial agreement that she signed with Cobain. Corr had insinuated that it would prove Cobain did not want his wife to have any involvement with Nirvana in the event of his death; in fact, it seems to say exactly the opposite.

http://www.jimdero.com/News2002/CobainMar10.htm

The prenup would have taken care of her and not leave her destitute, but not obtain all of his wealth. They are usually pretty fair and made when the couple love each other. Why did she agree to sign a prenup? She claimed to have thought she would be bigger than Kurt. Which is weird because she was riding his coattails to fame. She could have easily initiated it. She was the one with no money or assets at the time. Kurt's allegedly had the house in her name and other assets under the prenup. Many prenups and quite possibly theirs could be nullified on the grounds of adultery.

You also have Courtney on audio obsessing over divorce, the prenup and if Kurt was cheating on her which is ironic because she was the one cheating on him. Kurt found out Courtney was cheating on him. He just didn't love Courtney anymore and wanted a divorce. IT WAS OVER

BIG PICTURE, REALISTIC,

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[–] bruiser-t-cat 10 years ago

It was Courtney that wanted the prenup, not Kurt. But even the prenup would not have left her without money. Washington laws don't allow it. They had a child together.

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[–] marcfischetti 10 years ago

Thanks bruiser.
Look Im going through a messy divorce I have property but no kids. It's a 50/50 thing.
All the evidence in the universe does not merit a cover up murder. Why would even a strung out junky risk a life stretch in prison for added millions more than they already have.
So far I look at this from an outrospective viewpoint and on a humanistic level. Now you are saying that Courtney planned everything and furthermore, risked everything for more money. why risk a life in jail by murdering her husband and father of her child. Do you have kids? Look, Love was a fame junky, out to get anything she could. Why kill the most influential figure of the 90's, and be universally derided and hated.
All the evidence points to only chaos not some grand conspiracy murder cover up.
If you really want to get inside of the heads of love and Cobain shoot up now and try to evaluate a coherent response.
Go on I dare ya.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] NYultra 10 years ago

That's a good one, everyone has to shoot up heroin in order to have an opinion. Just because you yourself were a junkie, you think you have all the answers coming from experience?? I guess all police departments should just close up shop immediately because junkies would never commit any crimes and risk their families.

With divorce it depends on the state and with a prenup, it depends on the basis of the divorce. She had committed adultery and was potentially going to closed out of everything. If you can't see a motive behind this, then I can't help you. Spouses have their significant others murdered commonly and they have kids in the family and risk life imprisonment to get insurance money for example. It seems Courtney supporters are the only people to think that Kurt still loved Courtney and wanted to be with her at that point in life. Maybe look into this a little further and you might see it differently.

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[–] NYultra 10 years ago

I'm not suprised by that. It was obviously done before they had a baby, but I'm sure it addressed a child in the event they had one. Kurt had trust funds in Frances' name anyway.

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[–] marcfischetti 10 years ago

Oh well I've been giving only my opinion here and have so far and after 3 posts, been accused of a junky, a Courtney supporter and rambling. I never in my posts said I was a junky, I was addicted to cocaine and alcohol and my addiction was not long term or life threatening as many cases I was one of the lucky or honoured one, or maybe I'm just stronger than most. I care as much for Love as I do for cobain. As people they had many character flaws that held them from achieving their potential.
I only out across my point of view in order for one to ruminate on all the possibilities. If my argument is weak I apologise. I am a mere mortal who witnessed some blistering performances by the most thrilling artists of a messed up time. Maybe I should renounce my experience in order wallow in the guilt of wavy circumspect evidence and conspiracy. I much prefer to remember an artist who left behind him a vivid message and empowerment that is sorely missing in today's vapid music climate.
I already posted this by line but I truly feel it's appropriate and relevant to the man himself. I think he really wouldn't care either way what happened to his inheritance or his estate. I believe he would genuinely feel that Frances deserved an enriching and rich inheritance and subsequently Courtney too. Conspiracy, murder, accident, suicide, whatever, nevermind.

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[–] NYultra 10 years ago

I didn't mean to disrespect you in any way, but you are suggesting others to do heroin. I think the overall tone of this message board needs help. I really do want to explore and discuss the case without actually arguing.

I agree about you about Kurt Cobain as I think he is a legend that was gone before his time. I don't think he was inspired by greed either but Courtney was. Look at like any other situation in America and ask is it possible? i did and say yes, it is and there is enough information out there to warrant a deeper look into. I'm not out to get Courtney, but if you truly felt that something is not right about a situation, would you want to know the truth just in case he was set up and murdered? They say the easiest way to get away with murder to to kill a junkie.

Look, I have kids and I know what you are saying. Frances Bean is more than taken care of, no thanks to Courtney's handing of the estate. If you are was interesting in understanding what people are saying and are not kooky conspiracy theorists, maybe you should hear out what we are saying and read the evidence out there.

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[–] Troells 10 years ago

Indeed.

Mariticide happens often enough, unfortunately. If there was foul play in someones death - that person needs to be held legally accountable.

I find it rather queer that those that believe Kurt killed himself come to this board to argue - most of us who believe he may have been killed are not going to be easily convinced by suicide believers. This board is after all about a film that makes a compelling argument for Kurt's case to be re-opened.

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[–] marcfischetti 10 years ago

Thanks for your message and absolutely no offence taken. I made some extremely poor decisions in my youth and have only myself to blame. And I do agree with you in that I need to do more research I'll be honest with you I'm a lazy researcher and if have sped read over the facts put out there. I don't have a lot if time right now to make a thorough investigation and will be travelling for the next 2 weeks. Courtney was indeed shrewd and manipulative and subsequently blew everything. I have been trying to google Tom Grant in order to find out how reputable he really is, he seems to have control over all the search engines and he comes across as very passionate and coherent. I won't say I'm sitting on the fence right now but just going where my heart leads me. This matter has certainly sparked my interest and it's been a long while since I was interested in Kurt and Nirvana, which in itself is a good thing. I had friends who in the past where linked with nirvana, a journalist friend who interviewed them and a few hangers in bit I've lost contact with them over the years. Might just try to reacquaint myself with them if they're still around.

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[–] NYultra 10 years ago

Hey, no problem and thanks. At least you are alive to look back on it as something in the past. I find Grant to be important because without him, no one would be discussing this today I believe. You have to understand his impact as an insider, being that he was hired by Courtney. He didn't just come off his couch, 7 months after Kurt's death and try to "make money" off it. He had daily access to Courtney love and hours of secretly recorded conversations with her. He felt Courtney was acting suspiciously and this is not because she was a druggie as others say trying to marginalize her actions. I think his suspicions are warranted. It was Courtney's mistake hiring him and kudos for him for documenting/recording his interactions with her. My heart definitely leads me to suspect something is wring here. I'm glad you are being more open-minded. Just try soak in as much info as you can and I think you might be moving to the other side of the fence soon enough.

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[–] thefinalword 9 years ago

dont listen to anyone but Ultra and Sly Vape guy.

The rest are thinking with the hearts or something.

These two have looked at this case objectively and honestly. The other guys eulogy about Kurt and COurtney deteriorating is salient but the FACTS (which you so carelessly dismiss) are actually important....

From the moment I saw Courtney Love I knew what she was. I once had an EX -Gf like her and when I tried to leave her she threw a bottle of whiskey at my head (after judging her aim in fact). She would always tell me stories about how she was raped, and abused, she glorified lasciviousness, drug use, huge alcoholic, lied about taking heroin for sympathy or appeal?, lied about friend's suicides, lied about her own attempts at suicides, lied about her Mom abusing her, father, it just went on and on.

These people are called sociopaths. They only love themselves, but they can pretend from time to time. I knew this girl was bad for me but I loved her anyway I wanted to help her. I think Kurt felt the same way about Courtney, and he realized far too late how psychotic her sociopathology really was. Much like me. *Rubs skull where I got the concussion* I am almost 100% sure that Courtney Love is responsible for the death of Kurt Cobain. All I need now is for an objective case. One day this will come, and it will be the biggest *beep* Love can imagine.

Her day will come.

THis I do believe most definitely. Kurt Cobain will get his day in court.

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[–] asoapboxopera 10 years ago

I appreciate your kind wording and lack of hostility, but the evidence is hardly circumspect or circumstantial. It's simply impossible for the actions taken to add up to suicide. It doesn't make sense physically, as he would have been entirely incapacitated before shooting himself, if not dead already, and it doesn't make sense characteristically (still physical due to the drug's impact on the brain) either, as the mental state provided by the heroin (and such an extreme, 10x lethal dose at that) would be euphoric, not suicidal. That, coupled with the lack of fingerprints on not only the gun but also none on the pen of the supposed suicide note, the bizarre and contrived note signed as Cali, are worthy of investigation.

More circumstantial but highly suspicious: Courtney hired a private investigator claiming to want to find her husband, but only wanted surveillance at random places, saying that Kurt only stayed in expensive hotels, which his best friend adamantly denied), and yet didn't want surveillance at their own house, despite it being a place Kurt would likely be. Not to mention Courtney claimed he was suicidal (which was denied by everyone else, including the doctor from the overdose in Rome- where both she and Cali were present-- using her prescription, making her and Cali at the very least suspects). Add to this that Courtney says that in Rome Kurt wrote her an angry letter stating that he was divorcing her, and there's deserved suspicion over the situation. When asked if she could go up to search for him, she refused, saying she had "business" to take care of in L.A. So Courtney claims her husband is suicidal and needs to find him, but her priority is "business"? And so with her focus on having electricians randomly sent to the greenhouse where Kurt was to be found.

Nothing adds up (as I said in a previous post), because it doesn't make sense as it was claimed to have happened.
Any other police department would find these inconsistencies significant, but Seattle's Police Department is despairingly incompetent and corrupt. The medical examiner was Courtney's acquaintance if not friend; the fumblings of the police are well-, if depressingly, documented; and the corruption in the department gives no further confidence in their abilities to conduct this investigation. Let alone the first time-- when reopened, it absolutely needs to be someone else, and/or an entire overhaul of that department.

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[–] xlr231 10 years ago

I'd just like to point your numbers are way off... Google is worth $367.6 Billion as of May. The Greek government debt at one point was over 320 billion euro... They've received more than $260 billion in bailouts from the IMF and are still in crisis.

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[–] Protozoid 9 years ago

From watching the doc, I got the impression that Courtney and Cali had been trying to kill Kurt since Rome. Kurt eventually realized he needed to divorce Courtney. When he told her this, she flipped out on him and he was afraid for his life. So, he bought a gun. Then he went to rehab, further eroding Courtney's control over him by kicking heroin.

Courtney decides to hire someone to kill Kurt. Cali and Dillon were probably in on it, too. When Kurt got to the house outside of Seattle, Cali was already there. Cali called Courtney and told her that Kurt was there, and was waiting in the greenhouse with his shotgun. Courtney contacts the hit-man and tells him where Kurt is. There are worried about Kurt being armed, so they pay off Dillon (who Kurt still trusts, as evidenced by the fact that the shotgun was in Dillon's name) to roofie Kurt's soda.

This works. Once Kurt is unconscious, Dillon lets the hitman (I don't think Cali or Courtney pulled the trigger) into the greenhouse. The hitman shoots Kurt up with heroin and stages the murder. The hitman probably wasn't a professional, and made several mistakes, such as putting the shotgun shell in the wrong place. The splatter pattern may also eventually prove that the body was moved, if we ever see the censored crime photos.

This is my guess as to what happened.

Reading about the story online, it seems as though at least three more people were killed to cover up the crime: Hole's bassist, a Seattle cop named Detective Terry, and "El Duce", the musician who claimed Courtney tried to hire him to kill Kurt. It all points towards Courtney hiring someone else.

This documentary makes Courtney, Cali, Dillon and Rosemary (?) look very suspicious. My guess is that Tom Grant knows that none of them are the assassin, but wants this documentary to shame them into giving testimony. They are probably scared, because of the three other deaths.

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] somekindofmonster-78320 9 years ago

I have to admit you had me doubting the murder scenario with this post, but only for a moment. A knock out blow to the back of Cobain's head would've been easily concealed by the later shotgun damage. Maybe if a proper death investigation had occurred this is something that would've been picked up on by either a homicide detective or the coroner.

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[–] bruiser-t-cat 9 years ago

"A knock out blow to the back of Cobain's head would've been easily concealed by the later shotgun damage" - how? The damage to his head was minimal due to the kind of gun that was used.

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[–] Sly_Vaping_Guy 9 years ago

It's doubtful he was hit over the head. However, based on what might have actually happened, Kurt could have been drugged against his will. The rootbeer can may have been spiked with valium or possibly rohypnol. Then when he was unconscious he was then injected with heroin and the shooting was staged. He was most likely dead at the time the shot was fired.

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[–] BingoFlip20943 9 years ago

How about being injected with a large amount of heroin in his sleep in the wee hours of April 3rd, Easter Sunday (Pisces Jesus man). Then carried out to the greenhouse where the PI wouldn't look while Courtney or Cali finished up the suicide note.

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[–] mgreen9715 8 years ago

You need help finding a plausible murder scenario? Yet you claim to know about all the inconsistency and strange things that were pointed out by numerous detectives and such.

A fight? Kurt had a *beep* of heroin in his system. You don't think this "person Kurt trusted could have simply shot heroin with him and purposely ODe'd him? It's odd, but it's a lot more believable than him murdering himself after he would have passed out from the amount o heroin that he took, not to mention the forged suicide note and the trajectory of the bullet.

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