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Judging solely by their daughters, Lori was clearly the better mom

posted 11 years ago by gswan
95 replies | jump to latest

I watched episode one last night. Based on episode one I think Lori was clearly the better mom, as she raised the more mature child.

Taylor Carter (Lindsay)

* has almost no friends * charming, outgoing, wins friends where
where-ever she goes

* can't even win the love of * surrounded by potential suitors
the one boy she has had a
crush on all her life

* so repressed she can't admit, * seems to be self-aware, and yet not totally
even to herself, that she likes ruled by her emotions
the boy she loves

* academic progress unknown * understands science well enough to impress
strangers with science-base party tricks

* dowdy, conservative dresser * dresses with flare and style

* was gracious to the new sister * held off on kissing the handsome boy out
of respect to her repressed sister's feelings

* * smart enough to realize that the yogurt shop
would experience a spurt in business if she
was hired there.

* * smart enough to realize that getting a job
at the yogurt shop would send a signal to
Lori of a way to contact her.

* no impressive skills * in addition to picking up the science trick
we saw at the party knows the cool trick of
how to pick locks, and can figure out, in
about 10 seconds, how to turn on a carousel.

Lori and Carter may not have cared if Carter was an "A" student. Taylor may be
and "A" student. But I don't think there is any doubt that Carter is clearly quite
intelligent, and very mature for a 16 year-old.

From episode one at least, she seems very emotionally aware, whereas Taylor seems to be so emotionally backward and immature that she may never be an emotionally healthy, happy adult.

Many, many of the comments here focus on Lori's crime. Some viewers have suggested the show will contain a twist. A twist of some kind seems highly likely. Will that shift be new information that will trigger viewers to forgive Lori for kidnapping Carter? Maybe. Anything can happen in a TV show. Given that, in every other way, Lori was the superior mother, I think we should keep our eyes peeled for this. This may be something the writers fought over. There may be a faction within the writers who argued for a plot development that made Lori's kidnapping totally forgiveable, but the final scripts may only contain a shadow or echo of that plot development.

I suggest it exists -- otherwise, why make Carter the clearly superior child?

P.S.
Some viewers have been very tough on Carter, for being insufficiently grateful to her birth mother -- who seem to think she should be loyal to her birth mother, and overlook her obvious flaws as a human being. I don't think parents deserve love, just for being parents, and I will allow Carter to not bond with or love her birth family if they don't measure up to the standards she was raised by.

At 16 she is almost an adult, and even if the State won't let her live with Lori I would hope that a custody judge would allow her to opt for foster care -- if she doesn't want to live with Elizabeth.

[–] johnhelv 11 years ago

http://www.tvequals.com/2014/07/11/mtv-presents-finding-carter-happyla nd-tca-2014/

Minsky (showrunner/executive producer) explained that she wanted the kidnapping mother to seem like the perfect mother.

[–] modelajb 11 years ago

I couldn't disagree more. I think Taylor was a much nicer person than Carter. I don't think much of what you listed as skills for Carter were all that impressive. It just sounds to me like Lori was the "cool" mom and taught Carter how to flirt and do party tricks. Elizabeth obviously kept Taylor more sheltered, but I don't think that makes her a lesser mother, especially considering the circumstances. It's understandable to me that she would raise her that way.

Outside of all that, people develop their own personalities, and it's not entirely a reflection of how they were raised. Even if Carter and Taylor were raised together, Taylor still may have been the more introverted, conservative twin, and there's really nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make her a lesser person.

As a side note, I didn't think Carter was all that respectful of Taylor's feelings for Gabe. Even though she knew of Taylor's feelings, it still didn't stop her from becoming attached at the hip to Gabe or laying one on him right in Taylor's face. Not saying she shouldn't be allowed to go after him just because Taylor likes him, but just saying Carter doesn't deserve any awards for consideration of others feelings. I actually found her quite inconsiderate, rude, and even cruel to nearly everyone around her.

I also didn't find her to be particularly mature. She seemed like a typical teenager trying to act more grown than her age, to me, which is not equal to actually acting like an adult. Plus, a lot of her stunts were downright immature, in my eyes...the foam fingers being one example.

[–] suzan28 11 years ago

I think that it's more that lori taught her how to get by.....how to get out of a tough situation....street smarts....

as opposed to just smarts.....

susan

[–] coldpluto 11 years ago

if anything lori is teaching her to eventually become a sleaze and a prostitue

[–] draivin 10 years ago

I think that it's more that lori taught her how to get by.....how to get out of a tough situation....street smarts....

as opposed to just smarts.....

Couldn't have said it better.

Loathing is my life blood, rage my royal jelly, fear is my bacon bits

[–] crazygreen1126 11 years ago

I think Taylor was a much nicer person than Carter.

I disagree. Carter actually seems very nice & approachable. Notice how she was only a bitch to the birth mother? And there was a reason for it. She was cool with everyone else & even made friends with people who made pools about catching her mother. She had no problems with her siblings or her father. Her angered was all geared to her birth mother.

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"

[–] JoanTheVampireSlayer 11 years ago

Notice how she was only a bitch to the birth mother? And there was a reason for it.

Except the reason for Carter's nasty attitude toward her birth mother doesn't really have a whole lot to do with anything Elizabeth has done. It's just easier for Carter to point the finger at Elizabeth and blame everything on her because then Carter doesn't have to try to form a relationship with her and as a result admit that perhaps Lori was not the great mother she thought she was.

I get Carter is stand-offish towards wanting to bond with Elizabeth because they are strangers to each other despite being biologically related. She still sees Lori as her mother so I'm sure Carter would see accepting Elizabeth as her mother or even a family member to bond with as somehow betraying Lori. I understand not wanting to form a relationship with Elizabeth because of those reasons. However, Carter's attitude towards Elizabeth is overboard spiteful and mean-spirited. That was shown with the horrible stunt she and her friends pulled to embarrass Elizabeth in the mall food court. Then when her friend pointed out that Elizabeth looked sad in the video Carter got angry that he dared to feel any sympathy towards Elizabeth even though it should have been obvious to Carter that Elizabeth felt very hurt. She's being a bitch to Elizabeth because that helps her remain in denial about her supposed "real mother" who turned out to be a criminal that ripped her away from her real family.

She had no problems with her siblings or her father. Her angered was all geared to her birth mother.

Of course she didn't have a problem with the rest of the family. The only family we know of that Carter had prior to being reunited with her real family is a mother. Her siblings and her father are not replacing anyone she already had in her life. Elizabeth is the only one taking the place of a family member Carter already had.

I know I'm a vampire, Snookie.

[–] crazygreen1126 11 years ago

All of your points don't disprove any of my points. Carter's not mean, she's lashing out at one person & for obvious reasons.

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"

[–] JoanTheVampireSlayer 11 years ago

My points disprove the idea that Carter is a bitch to Elizabeth because of anything Elizabeth has done to her. Carter claims she angry with Elizabeth for lying to her, yet she's not mad at Lori for lying to her for her entire life. So obviously, lying is not actually the huge deal breaker to Carter that she's pretending it to be. She's only applying that as a negative against Elizabeth because then it gives her a justifiable reason to be a bitch to her.

Carter's not mean, she's lashing out at one person & for obvious reasons.

Then what would you call that stunt she pulled at the mall? She certainly wasn't being nice. It doesn't matter if she's only lashing out at one person. Her behavior towards Elizabeth is still mean and very uncalled for. As I said before, I understand Carter feeling hesitant about forming a relationship with Elizabeth, but her complete disregard for the woman's feelings and doing things like sending her on a wild goose chase to the mall so an entire crowd can give her the finger is the very definition of being mean.

I know I'm a vampire, Snookie.

[–] modelajb 11 years ago

Again, very well said.

[–] gswan 11 years ago

Then what would you call that stunt she pulled at the mall? She certainly wasn't being nice. It doesn't matter if she's only lashing out at one person. Her behavior towards Elizabeth is still mean and very uncalled for.

Several viewers have made the claims you make -- that Carter was mean to Elizabeth; and that Elizabeth didn't deserve it;

So, how did Elizabeth come to be at the Mall, so that she was vulnerable to being humiliated?

Unprofessioally, she made the hunt for Lori personal. She should have allowed other officers to pursue Lori. She shouldn't ask for details of how the investigation is proceeding. Professional officers wouldn't offer her any. If any of her colleagues took pity on her, and tried to tell her details of the progress of the pursuit of Lori, she should resist the temptation, turn away, tell them to shut up.

Why? Because Lori's attorneys could use Elizabeth's highly unprofessional involvement in Lori's pursuit as an argument that the case was tainted. Elizabeth's unprofessional conduct coulmean that if Lori really was guilty, she ends up being acquitted.

So, Elizabeth is a rogue cop. If she had stayed home, if she had let her colleagues try to pursue Lori, and keep her in the dark, she never would have been in the mall to feel the kids' mockery. She is lucky she was only mocked. She should lose her job.

Let me repeat, Elizabeth was only present, at the mall, to be embarrassed because she engaged in a personal vendetta against the woman her daughter loved. This vendetta was unprofessional; it was unethical; and I believe it was also illegal.

[–] JoanTheVampireSlayer 11 years ago

Umm...Of course she has a personal vendetta against Lori. The woman KIDNAPPED HER DAUGHTER! I'm not sure why you're counting that as some sort of negative against Elizabeth when Lori is the one to blame for Elizabeth's anger towards. Elizabeth wouldn't be determined to capture the woman herself if Lori hadn't decided to steal her child. Believing Lori deserves to be in prison and wanting to put her there herself does not make Elizabeth the bad guy. She is the victim of a crime.

It's a shame Carter can't see it from Elizabeth's point-of-view. She's so caught up in trying to stick to her beliefs that Lori is a "great" mother that she has failed to realize the entire reason her life has been turned upside is because of that alleged "great" mother.

I know I'm a vampire, Snookie.

[–] NoblestRomana 11 years ago

I also want to point out. Lori already kidnapped one child. Who is to say she won't do it again? Or even worse if she gets really desperate? People who kidnap a child don't just then suddenly repent and change after 13 years.

[–] gswan 11 years ago

Lori already kidnapped one child. Who is to say she won't do it again?

Speculation as to the risk Lori poses of kidnapping another child are irrelevant because Elizabeth has very strong obligations, both personal and professional, to keep her nose out of the pursuit of Lori, and of allowing the FBI and her local colleagues to handle the case.

[–] gswan 11 years ago

Umm...Of course she has a personal vendetta against Lori. The woman KIDNAPPED HER DAUGHTER!

Fine, she hates Lori. Nevertheless, she has various obligations to act responsibly, to keep from acting against Lori on a personal level.

I'm not sure why you're counting that as some sort of negative against Elizabeth when Lori is the one to blame for Elizabeth's anger towards.

Suppose your neighour were a cop. Suppose for some reason or other, they hated you. Suppose that hatred had some kind of justification, like you ran over their cat, or their dog.

Should your neighbour, the cop, use their authority to access confidential databases to see if you had outstanding warrants in other jurisdictions? Should they see if you had a criminal record? Should they check to see if any of the members of your family had a criminal record? Or should they, in their interaction with you, take off their cop hat?

If they think your kid broke into their house, should they grad your kid, and conduct their own interrogation? Or should they phone for a radio car, and let an uninvolved cop do all the investigating?

Yes, everyone understands why the character of Elizabeth might hate Lori. Everyone understands why Elizabeth would want to be free to take personal vengeance against Lori. What I am afraid you don't understand is why Elizabeth should understand taking personal vengeance against Lori is incompatible with her duties to the public. What I am afraid you don't understand is why Elizabeth should understand taking personal vengeance against Lori is incompatible with building a loving relationship with Carter.

Elizabeth wouldn't be determined to capture the woman herself if Lori hadn't decided to steal her child.

As above, everyone understands why Elizabeth wants vengeance.

Her surrender to this desire mark her as a rogue cop, who should, at a minimum, lose her job.

Believing Lori deserves to be in prison

This is a work of fiction, the producers may have some convoluted twist that makes Lori the innocent one, all along, while revealing Elizabeth to be the villain. Barring that, yes, Lori should face charges. Maybe she belongs in a mental institution, not jail.

...and wanting to put her there herself does not make Elizabeth the bad guy.

BZZZT

Wanting to put Lori in prison herself does not make her a bad guy, so long as she doesn't surrender to that desire. If she does surrender to the desire to get personal vengeance, Elizabeth is a vigilante. Elizabeth has taken the law into her own hands, and that makes her the bad guy.

She is the victim of a crime.

Probably, barring a far-fetched twist that makes Lori innocent, after all. But being the victim of a crime does not justify vigilante action.

It's a shame Carter can't see it from Elizabeth's point-of-view. She's so caught up in trying to stick to her beliefs that Lori is a "great" mother that she has failed to realize the entire reason her life has been turned upside is because of that alleged "great" mother.

I disagree. It is good Carter doesn't see things from Elizabeth's POV, because Elizabeth is (also(?)) ethically challenged.

Once Carter was taken into the care of the Child Protection system they should have taken care of Carter's interests, and not simply assumed returning her to her birth parents was the best thing for Carter. Foster care might have been the best thing for Carter.

[–] JoanTheVampireSlayer 11 years ago

Suppose your neighour were a cop. Suppose for some reason or other, they hated you. Suppose that hatred had some kind of justification, like you ran over their cat, or their dog.

I didn't read your reply any further than this. You must be trolling if you're comparing a child being kidnapped to losing a pet.

I know I'm a vampire, Snookie.

[–] gswan 11 years ago

I didn't read your reply any further than this. You must be trolling if you're comparing a child being kidnapped to losing a pet.

No, I am not trolling.

Here is the short version, adapted to your stated attention span -- you are defending, and holding blameless, a rogue cop, who let her personal feelings lead her to cross ethical boundaries, which should, at a minimum, cause her to lose her job.

She was only exposed to the public humiliation you hold Carter responsible for because she was doing things she should have known she shouldn't be doing.

[–] JoanTheVampireSlayer 11 years ago

I don't have a short attention span. I just tend not to have any interesting in reading posts spewing *beep* Once I got to your offensive comparison of the loss of a child being comparable to the loss of a pet I knew the rest of your reply would be nothing but a bunch of crap.

I know I'm a vampire, Snookie.

[–] gswan 11 years ago

Once I got to your offensive comparison of the loss of a child being comparable to the loss of a pet I knew the rest of your reply would be nothing but a bunch of crap.

Really? Then you did both of us a disservice, because I never made the assertion you use as your justification.

When I start reading a discussion I make a point of preferentially reading the arguments advanced by those I disagree with. While I might like the people who agree with me, I realize I am much more likely to learn something new, and to provide a more effective challenge to my existing position, by reading the arguments made by those I disagree with.

I encourage you to consider trying to do likewise. I think you will find you live a richer more interesting life, if you do so.

[–] modelajb 11 years ago

Well said.

[–] Top_Shelf 10 years ago

so well written

[–] first_rule_of_fightclub 10 years ago

I think OP might wanna rethink their claim.

Seeing as how Carter's bad decisions led to Max getting shot. Had she not gone with Crash, or gone back home after talking to Grant and Taylor, or left Crash when she saw he had a gun or any other of the chances she had to end being on the lam with Crash, Max wouldn't have gotten shot.

[–] JoanTheVampireSlayer 10 years ago

I'm sure the OP will come up with some ridiculous excuse for Carter's part in Max getting shot.

I know I'm a vampire, Snookie.

[–] coldpluto 11 years ago

she wasn't cool with everyone else, she was high most of the time with other people.

[–] modelajb 11 years ago

Keep in mind, that none of those other people have someone to compete with in Carter's former life. That is a big part of the reason she is so much more resistant to the Elizabeth.

[–] dyannarosemarie 11 years ago

uhhh...did watch the same show?

[–] AtheistRevolution 11 years ago

Carter is a drugged up skank. Was on her way to be knocking up or a drug addict before she graduated. Taylor is the kind of chick you marry. Carter is the one that gets passed around at parties. Of course the Gabe guy would go for Carter since he knows she will put out. But he will eventually regret that choice because I've know people that tried to turn sluts into housewives. Never works out.

- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

[–] crazygreen1126 11 years ago

Carter is a drugged up skank.

Really? A lot of teens smoke weed. And if you paid attention to the scene when she did Molly, she had said she'd never done it before.

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"

[–] and7579 11 years ago

Ehhhh I don't know if Lori was a mom at all. Being bff with your daughter isn't parenting.

[–] crazygreen1126 11 years ago

How do we know she wasn't more than just a BFF? We literally saw them in one scene together at a yogurt shop. We have no idea how she raised her other than it was apparent that they were very close & had an open relationship.

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"

[–] and7579 11 years ago

The fact that Carter seems to have no boundaries tells me that. Drinking, doing drugs, partying...where's the parenting in that?

[–] crazygreen1126 11 years ago

She's pushing the limits on purpose to piss Elizabeth off. I think people are missing that point. She had never even done Molly before. I don't think she was this out of control teen with Lori. She smoked a little weed with her friends. A lot of teens do.

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"

[–] johnhelv 11 years ago

Carter actually wanted to be home with Lori, they were more like best friends or older sister/younger sister with a close relationship than mother/daughter. Carter probably did not have a curfew on school nights with Lori but she was most likely home by 11pm and went to school the next day without any issues.

[–] crazygreen1126 11 years ago

I didn't have a curfew when I was in High School. A lot of my friends didn't either. Lori was probably more lenient, but it could be the reason why Carter didn't have to test boundaries, theoretically speaking. She probably did the typical teen things without going overboard.

With Elizabeth, she's basically doing anything to piss her off on purpose.

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"

[–] and7579 11 years ago

I'm very close with my mother (my dad too but mostly my mom) and I was open with both my parents. Hence I was allowed a lot of freedom but I never pushed the limits like Carter did. I guess identify with both girls because I'm in the middle of the two personally. I prefer a Gilmore Girls type of relationship to Lori/Carter. It seems TOO lenient

[–] and7579 11 years ago

Also Lori is a fugitive there's no way she would even be an option for custody. And chances are they wouldn't put her in foster care because that's taking up spots from kids that don't have homes. They would probably recommend counseling with the family or emancipation

[–] Yorick_Brown 11 years ago

Taylor was raised very differently due to her family's turmoil.

And you can't blame your parents all the time because they have personality quirks.

Also, you've judged Taylor way too quickly. We don't know her yet to call anyone the 'superior child' as if that exists.

Passenger side, lighting the sky
Always the first star that I find
You're my satellite...

[–] gswan 11 years ago

Taylor was raised very differently due to her family's turmoil.

While I agree, having had a child disappear is stressful for a parent, so is being a fugitive. Lori didn't let the stress of being a fugitive interfere with forming an exceptionally warm, loving and supportive bond with her child.

And you can't blame your parents all the time because they have personality quirks.

Neglecting your children's emotional needs is not a forgiveable personality quirk. Both Taylor, and the baby brother, were clearly neglected.

Also, you've judged Taylor way too quickly. We don't know her yet to call anyone the 'superior child' as if that exists.

Are you really disputing that, all other things being equal, that happy, well-adjusted, out-going, charming individuals, with a gift for being liked, end up leading happier, more successful lives, than their introspective and unpopular cohorts?

It may be you are trying to suggest that Taylor has hidden gifts, that balance out her debilitating alienation. Okay, theoretically, she could be a Sheldon Cooper level genius -- except no one noticed. If so, that gift would be irrelevant, because that gift didn't grow due to excellent parental care. Carter's charm, on the other hand, seems to be a direct consequence of great, confidence-building, maternal care.

[–] Yorick_Brown 11 years ago

While I agree, having had a child disappear is stressful for a parent, so is being a fugitive. Lori didn't let the stress of being a fugitive interfere with forming an exceptionally warm, loving and supportive bond with her child.

Lori was well-hidden and could raise her child without the immediate specter of losing her.

It's an awful thing to judge such a loving parent like Carter's bio mom just because her own children aren't popular in school.

Neglecting your children's emotional needs is not a forgiveable personality quirk. Both Taylor, and the baby brother, were clearly neglected.

Plenty of beloved children aren't extroverted or outspoken. You can't blame the parents for that.

Passenger side, lighting the sky
Always the first star that I find
You're my satellite...

[–] gswan 11 years ago

It's an awful thing to judge such a loving parent like Carter's bio mom just because her own children aren't popular in school.
Neglecting your children's emotional needs is not a forgiveable personality quirk. Both Taylor, and the baby brother, were clearly neglected.
Plenty of beloved children aren't extroverted or outspoken. You can't blame the parents for that.

Yes, good parents can have shy children. Good parents, however, notice when their kids are shy. Good parents, however, try to take steps to help their shy children learn to interact more comfortably with other people.

Were Elizabeth and David aware of how troubled their two remaining children were? Aside from the family therapy, there doesn't seem to be any sign they are taking any steps to help their children -- or their marraige.

Poor little baby brother -- he says he feels neglected, ignored -- and, aside from Carter, everyone ignores him -- even the family therapist. Poor Taylor, has never been to a party.

So I repeat that I think Elizabeth and David are neglectful parents.

Can I remind you that Elizabeth has been conducting a secret affair -- for years? That the affair remains secret, or at least nominally secret, strongly suggests Elizabeth was totally insincere in her participation in the family therapy.

Similarly, David has secretly imperiled the family's finances. David is secretly recording the family therapy sessions -- an enormous breach of faith.

So I challenge the assertion that Elizabeth and David are good parents.

[–] JCrewgirl 11 years ago

There is nothing wrong with being shy. Plus when was it ever implied that they didn't know she was shy? Plus it's not like it's a bad thing. Being shy isn't like being hooked on heroin

Save the date: Decemember 31, 2014 is Cassie's big day!!!

[–] gswan 11 years ago

There is nothing wrong with being shy. Plus when was it ever implied that they didn't know she was shy? Plus it's not like it's a bad thing. Being shy isn't like being hooked on heroin.

Being shy is not a moral failure, like lying, cheating or stealing. If this is all you meant to say, then I agree with you.

Is there anything WRONG with being shy? Well, since outgoing, popular individuals win promotions, win friends, win other opportunities not made available to shy introverts, yes there is something wrong with being shy. No, loving parents shouldn't shame shy children. But loving parents should take steps to help their shy children overcome their shyness -- including encouraging them to participate in clubs, encouraging them to try to try public speaking, in venues where that would feel safe, encouraging them to participate in amateur theatrics -- even if it meant the parent also had to enroll in the same amateur theatrics.

Managers, and others in a position of authority, are acting responsibly when they offer promotions and other opportunities to charming, outgoing individuals -- because those individuals make better leaders than shy introverts; those individuals do a better job at winning new customers, or new converts, or whatever, than shy introverts. Loving parents want their shy children to have the same opportunities, as adults, as their more outgoing peers, and take steps to help them catch up.

As to when it was implied Elizabeth and David weren't recognizing or addressing their remaining children's shyness... I already pointed out Taylor said she had never been to a party. Loving, attentive parents should notice if their child is so introverted, or so unpopular, that they never go to a party. Elizabeth and David are oblivious to what should be a source of serious concern.

Baby brother is also shy, also feels ignored. And his parents are oblivious to, and ignore, his feelings of being ignored.

May I point out you didn't address the very serious deceit I pointed out, on the parts of both Elizabeth and David -- deceit serious enough to erode any claims they could make of being good parents.

[–] elladusetzina 11 years ago

I dont think one parent is better than the other, I think it's all in how they raised they're daughters. Personally I prefer Lori and Carters relationship rather than Taylor and Elizabeth's. Its just all about preference.