MovieChat Forums > Doctor Who (2023) Discussion > Empire of death thoughts

Empire of death thoughts

posted 5 months ago by peter_t_2k3 (1050)
13 replies | jump to latest

So wasn't sure what to expect going in. RTD often is good at the first part of a finale but the actual final episode usually falls down.

It suffers from some of the issues his others have but I found this to be one of the better ones.

I wasn't expecting it to be revealed that Sutekh has been travelling on the TARDIS since the 4th doctor. So everywhere he's been since Susan twists character was there as someone else. Not sure what I think of this, it's interesting but also then begs the question why did the doctor only just notice her.

The reason it's like a lot of other RTD finales is that everything is reversed. When they started killing off unit, I was shocked. IsKate's doing to die? Then everyone is dying and for a second I thought oh crap but then thought this is just going to be reversed isn't it.

Yes they remember dying but when the show does this, we know it's going to be reversed so it loses any impact. The show does death better when it's much more small scale, more personal, because we feel for the individuals and even if they find a way around it, we might think they might not survive. When it's large scale like this, we always know it'll be undone so it ruins the stakes and feels pointless.

As for Ruby's mother, her being normal kind of made sense as the point was that people see mystery's in things that are normal, but then the fact Ruby could make it snow when thinking about her didn't make sense, made her seem like there was something bigger but they have said her story spans 2 seasons. Also the fact there was no DNA was odd, like you'd expect at least one person would have a match surely but then I suppose if it was that easy you'd not have people having to go onto shows like long lost relatives.

There's still a few things left unanswered, like has mavity been fixed? The main thing is who is Mrs Flood? There was a line I didn't pick up on which was you clever boy and people are saying she is an older Clara but I hope not. Also with all this Susan stuff, are we going to see Susan return?

What did people think? I also found we didn't get enough of Sutekh.

[–] hurricane (1959) 5 months ago

Like you, I was shocked when Kate died. She's been in it since Matt Smith was Doctor. But when everybody started popping off, you knew it would be reversed.

You're right on a few things. The snow wasn't explained, but I had forgotten about it. So I don't really care too much. I am more interested in who Mrs Flood is. I hope it's not Clara. They're playing it as if she is evil. And also, Clara can't age, can she?

I hope we see Susan though. Otherwise, they're continually blabbing on about her for no reason. The Doctor seemed to suggest he was going to look for her.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (1050) 5 months ago

With Susan, even a little scene at the end where he goes and watches her would have been nice. I'd hate for them not to use Carol Ann Ford while they can.

As for the snow, it seems like they wanted to make her mother seem something she wasn't which to me could have worked a lot better without the snow, but they had stuff that wasn't possible normally to make it seem like a mystery only to then say it wasn't, making it feel anticlimactic.

Also why would Sutekh even care who she was. He wants to kill everyone. So he can't see her face which surely you should have been able to, which further makes her reveal not work, so then he keeps the doctor and Ruby alive to find out. He wants to destroy the whole universe so surely he shouldn't care about who someone is? He's bothered about people being more powerful than him so if everyone is dead her identity is pointless.

Also if he's been on the TARDIS this long, and only revealed himself due to wanting to know who Ruby's mother was, how long was he planning to stay on the TARDIS originally?

I think it would have made more sense to have him latch on with reality being messed with with the toymaker as it seems odd that he's just been having a ride for all these years doing nothing

[–] [deleted] 5 months ago

Only thing I can think of with the snow is that all along the TARDIS was helping create it from Ruby's memory based on Ruby bringing the hybrid memory of many TARDIS' into existence, the Sutekh did say it had full control (of a TARDIS), so perhaps Sutekh programmed it.

Why would it matter to Sutekh who Louise (Ruby's mother) was, on that all I can think of is simple vanity, being that Sutekh had kept itself hidden from all except in its mind from Louise, the intrigue as to how one person could see when others didn't probably ate away at its almighty better than you ego. I think that as it all spins back to Louise being just a normal everyday person that wasn't actually pointing at Sutekh and trying to warn the Doctor like it thought it was, but a street name on a lamp post. The question of how did this person see me as I say ate away at it. So yeah even Sutekh saw a mystery in something that was nothing, like the Doctor said has happened through human history, burning people that were believed to be Witches at the stake comes to mind.

The whole keeping the Doctor alive could have been handled a little better I think, the reason for it was right there as was if they wanted, so as the Doctor would realise he caused it all like he said, and to live with it would be better punishment than being killed (in Sutekh's mind).

Still though even in saying all that it's just a conclusion I've drawn to make sense of it, then is that what was wanted, for people to see different things and make sense of it as they will, basically seeing things that may not really be there as an allegory to the season itself.

However yeah more questions than answers I feel, and I'm the same I'm more interested in who Mrs Flood is, basically left feeling this was an adequate introduction to a new Doctor which all hangs on how it progresses from here. I often go back and watch at the end of each Doctors era their seasons again, and see if I pickup anything that I may have missed, so I am a bit forgiving (sometimes too much).

And yep does bringing life back change the timeline again, does it mean that Isaac Newton never called it Mavity and Gravity instead. As yeah they would have all got turned to sand in that era as well, seeing Sutekh planted Susan's in all periods the Doctor visited and that was one of them, guess we'll know if either word gets used in the future.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (1050) 5 months ago

The problem with the pointing bit is if she's not pointing at Sutekh, then why is she pointing at a sign. If she's just deciding the name she would surely just decide it rather than pointing it out for no one.

The whole it's not actually just normal and we read into it only works if they can explain it properly but they have put stuff in it that feels forced. You can see the writer in it - let's have her point a sign etc.

[–] [deleted] 5 months ago

Yep totally agree, and it's why I found it difficult to word what I said, and used the bits "all I can think of" "a conclusion I've drawn to make sense of it" as even in my mind I'm not satisfied completely with the explanations I told myself.

I kind of walked away with the thought of RTD saying let's make it ambiguous, shows are doing that now so let's do the same, honestly I'm getting a bit tired of that in shows now. There have been a a couple of times this season of Russel T Davies explains with episodes, haven't looked yet but if there's one for this I wouldn't be surprised, though there's part of the problem, why does it have to be explained, shouldn't the story do that.

While I was entertained, there were just bits that didn't gel so well, I was along for the ride, it's the after thoughts that have muddied it, the hang on a minutes of but how, didn't they, wasn't she, and etc., even to the thought of the TARDIS connecting with Ruby and creating the Snow memory. As if that was the case to alert the Doctor of something not right, the TARDIS trying to get a message out about an unwanted hitchhiker, and like is said Sutekh has been travelling on the TARDIS since the 4th doctor and now the TARDIS decides to alert them, it's muddy.

[–] Satan2016 (25525) 5 months ago

I had to look up Mrs Flood! Article doesn't answer who she is. Good recap as I was falling asleep for the ending.

Doctor Who's Finale Sets Up an Even Bigger Season 2 Twist https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/doctor-who-finale-explained-mrs-flood

At the end of 2023’s “The Church on Ruby Road,” Ruby’s neighbor, Mrs. Flood, closed out the episode by looking directly at the audience and saying “Never seen a TARDIS before?” After that, fan speculation ran rampant, suggesting she was another Time Lord (the Master, the Rani?) a former companion, or even the Doctor’s granddaughter Susan.

We see her on the roof, wearing a white fur coat with a hood, and carrying a suitcase and an umbrella. She continues: “But life goes on, doesn’t it? Ruthlessly. And what happens, you might wonder, to that mysterious traveler in time and space known as the Doctor? I’m sorry to say his story ends in absolute terror. Night night.”

So what does this mean for the future of Doctor Who? Considering Mrs. Flood’s winter wear, this may all be set-up for the Doctor’s next adventure: the 2024 Christmas special entitled “Joy to the World.” Tellingly, Mrs. Flood appears to be moving, which could suggest she’s going to try and be closer to the Doctor in the future.

[–] hurricane (1959) 5 months ago

I hope that the Mrs Flood turns out to be worthy of all the build up.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (1050) 5 months ago

Yeah I found the finale anti climatic so I hope they do something good with mrs flood.

[–] Dogiswhite (1288) 5 months ago

I agree but I doubt RTD will actually do anything that interesting with her. After teasing her many times, he will reveal her secret and it will probably be meh. Not horrible but not that interesting. Anyway, Ncuti has been great as the Doctor so far and most of the stories were pretty good. There were some strange moments that I could have done without. Mostly the singing and dancing, but that was not altogether bad. Also a little too much crying from Ncuti's Doctor. Will RTD use Sutekh as an excuse to undo Chibnall's Flux destroying most of the universe?

[–] peter_t_2k3 (1050) 5 months ago

I think that Sutekh has just undid what he had done.

Would be a way to bring Gallifrey back but then you'd also have to bring everything else ever destroyed back, the good the bad.

[–] Dogiswhite (1288) 5 months ago

Yeah but kinda my point. If RTD wants an easy way to undo the Flux he can blame it on Sutekh.

I do hope that with all the mention of Susan that she actually makes an appearance on the show.

[–] capuchin (3182) 5 months ago

I thought it was fine. I was sufficiently entertained. Did it live up to last week's build up? No. Does it ever in New Who? Well... sometimes. But slightly underwhelming second parts has long been a feature.

I'm glad Bonnie Langford was given something to do after what I was saying about Mel 'hanging around in the background for no discernible reason' last week.

Mostly, I'm just glad that it feels like Doctor Who. I cannot overemphasise how concerned I was about the new season after the first two episodes. I really did think for a while there that it may finally be time for me to step off the bus. And the season very quickly turned around from that point to be... pretty much what it's been since 2005. I'm relieved.

So I'm happy enough -- even with the bits and pieces I don't personally care for.

[–] Dogiswhite (1288) 5 months ago

While I was happy to see Mel return to Doctor Who, she is one of my least favorite companions, so I was kind of hoping for someone better. But yeah I do agree with you that after the first two episodes I was a little worried, but they did course correct and it turned out to be a mostly good season (although still a bit short).