Gus hires a hit squad? Come on, really - Better Call Saul (2015) Discussion

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Yup. That sums up episode 10.

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[–] dt123 (705) 5 years ago

Couldn’t agree more. They jumped the shark.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

absolutely, I was thinking about that jumped the shark expression as soon as he said he hired a hit squad to take him out. I was thinking, no way; it is a set up of some kind. But nope a real hit squad showed up at the end. what a joke.

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[–] dt123 (705) 5 years ago

And they had over a year to write the season. So disappointed.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

The season was good, very good. I think it was the best season yet. I fact I was saying before they should have got to this point sooner, Season 5 should have been combined into season 4. It is just this last episode that just went off the rails.

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[–] dt123 (705) 5 years ago

Yeah, maybe. Still, they had a year. Should’ve had one more ep.

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[–] Burk48917 (11528) 5 years ago

They are just priming for the final season next year, they have to start pushing in a particular direction to end where they need to be. Sometimes that will feel forced, particularly when we don't see where it goes yet. I had more issues with the incompetence if the hit squad, more than the fact they were there.

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[–] rootvegetables (1898) 5 years ago

It came down to a choice between Gus hiring a hit squad or Gus learning how to ride a unicycle. A tough call, to be sure, but they made it and this was it.

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[–] Threadkiller (3089) 5 years ago

I really have to agree. Apart from the fact that there was no satisfying resolution to anything the biggest failing of the episode is Gus arbitrarily going from the ultimate patient machiavellian who always plays the long game to making this brazen, poorly thought out assassination attempt like a common crime lord & needlessly throwing his double agent in the mix at the last minute to be exposed & or killed. It's a rare example of bad writing

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

This show has always been held back on resolving plots; very snail paced show. But this move from Gus was just 100% not in character. It was like it was done just to have a big bang scene at the end and no one thought about if it made sense or was true to the characters. Gus would never be this careless. If Lalo was going to die, he would make sure 100% it was done and not trust a bunch of morons with guns. God, some best of the best they are; they managed to kill literally everyone EXCEPT their target. idiots.

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[–] chefao (456) 5 years ago

Are you stupid? Why are you jumping to conclusions before it being explained in the next season? The obvious explanation is that they all have the colombian gang tattoo so the attack will be pinned on them. There's a reason the writers had to invoke a third party attacking the 7mil money drop, so it will obviously be used for this end. If you're so smart to call the episode stupid then at least tell me you had enough brain power to figure this out...

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

Umm, am I stupid? no i just pay attention. Gus specifically tells Mike about the firing squad he hired and that they are "the best in the business". It need no explanation of who the hitsquad was, you seem to be mixing up the hitsquad in episode 10 with the robbers of episode 8, they were not even close to the same organizations. Maybe instead of insulting people get you facts together and make an actual argument.

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[–] chefao (456) 5 years ago

I am not mixing up anything, I am telling you there is a reason the writers invoked a third party attacking the 7 million money drop. It's still very well possible that this attack gets pinned on them by Gus. You are jumping to conclusions before we have the answers, they intentionally ended the season with this cliffhanger in order to make you wonder but somehow you think you have all the answers and that everyone who enjoyed the episode is not oh so enlightened as you so give me a break about your sensibilities.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

Again, how would would be robbers hire professional mercenaries like this. If they are going to try to rob the cartel for 7 million, they are either a very desperate or very stupid group; how was Gus planning on framing them. No matter which way you slice it, it was a reckless move. Especially since Gus has no way of confirming if the job was done.

It is not about having all the answers it is about having observed and analyzed the characters. If they do something out of character it does not matter what the answer or plan is; if it is shown to be a reckless plan by someone that never does anything reckless then it is 100% out of character.

I don't care if you enjoyed it, I did not. But the fact is Gus was out of character this episode and the whole hit squad for being the best of the best were a pathetic bunch and it was pretty silly to see Lalo superman survive it and take out the entire squad by himself.

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[–] chefao (456) 5 years ago

You contradict yourself in this very reply. You talk about "very stupid" robbers who hire "professional mercenaries" (implying they are very skilled in their trade) but then at the end you call this mercenary hit squad a "pathetic bunch". Exactly, Gus didn't get the best of the best, he probably (again, we don't know yet) got some group that has links to the Colombians (i think they were Colombians) who tried to steal the 7 million from Saul to do the hit job on Lalo. That way, regardless if they succeed or fail, Gus could always pin the attack on this group. Obviously Lalo is not going to buy it, but it might be good enough of a deflection to get the cartel out of his ass. If you assume that everything I said here is true then Gus was not out of character at all.

You might be right and the episode might be completely retarded but you might also be wrong and there might be some bigger play going on like what I guessed. I'm just saying we can't know one way or the other because the season ended precisely with that cliffhanger.

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[–] Burk48917 (11528) 5 years ago

If it plays out that it's as black and white as we saw, which I agree would be out if character for Gus, then yes it is bad writing. However, if the next season spins this to be part of a larger plan, then it was excellent writing, but we can't be sure until that point.

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[–] chefao (456) 5 years ago

The progression of Jimmy and Kim is beautiful and makes total sense. Jimmy had a near death traumatizing experience and now all he wants is to make sure nothing will happen to Kim. Kim had a taste of the danger and the money and thinks she can whip Satan and kiss God. Get your head out of your ass.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

This was not progression; this is called regression; learn the difference dumb; Saul regressed back to being Jimmy. Fine if that is the route they want to take the character, 1 step forward 2 steps back, till the end of the show; fair enough. It is Kim that is embracing this duality of morals too aggressively now; like she is a wolf in sheep's clothes. She seems more villainous that Saul now; again if that is the route they want to take character; whatever. But the problem is, that character is showing her 'evil' side much more than the character used to. It stands out like a sore thumb in the episode. Again, make an argument instead of insulting you; you retarded waste of human life. One more time and you can join my ignore list that is reserved for only the biggest assholes.

Call me stupid when you can't even pay attention to what episode is being discussed. what a douche.

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[–] FilmBuff (7435) 5 years ago

It felt very real to me. Have you ever had a near-death experience, or a close call with some sort of major trauma or life-ruining event? You aren't the same person immediately afterwards. They showed us this throughout episode 9-- Saul was not himself. He was suffering from PTSD and staggering through life in a daze. It's human nature to behave as they are showing him behave. When have we seen Jimmy stand speechless in the face of danger, yet he reacted to Lalo's visit with a glum stare, and Kim had to leap in and save the day. So yes, Jimmy reevaluating his choices and hesitating to embark on an immoral plan feels extremely real to me. Whether it's someone who drank too much and promised the next morning "I"m never drinking again," or someone who narrowly avoided a life in jail after making some poor, spur-of-the-moment decision promising to reform and never break the law again, that's how people act.

Gus? Why wouldn't he hire a small team of highly trained killers to take out Lalo when he is isolated from the rest of the cartel and vulnerable, and when they have Ignacio on the inside to facilitate the killing? That is a very Gus-like maneuver. Had it worked, the blame would have fallen squarely on another gang-- probably the one who ambushed Jimmy-- and Gus would have had plausible deniability. His only error was underestimating Lalo/overestimating the hired assassins.

Respectfully, I think you are trying to hard to find a flaw in the episode, and not thinking hard enough about human nature.

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[–] Threadkiller (3089) 5 years ago

I somewhat agree about the way that Jimmy/Saul is behaving considering he should currently still feeling a bit in shock. I don't know what's going on with Kim's character though who has been all over the place with some very schizophrenic motivations. Ultimately I didn't care for their characters interactions in the finale and the ridiculous "let's ruin Howard because he's thinks he's special" set up leading into the final season.

I'm sorry but there's no amount of excuses that could be made to convince me that Gus' rushed decision to send incompetent hitmen to take out Lalo instead of biding his time for a better opportunity & needlessly throwing Nacho into the mix even though he hadn't anticipated him being there, only for it all to blow up in his face. Gus is an extremely calculating character who would never take a risk like this understanding that the ultimate downside of failure would outweigh the immediate benefit. The entire thing was amateur hour & very out of character for Gus. It's bad writing. Realistically this blunder should spell the end of Fring but we know it somehow, miraculously "works out" for Gus in the end as the Cartel & Lalo's cousins inexplicably never find out about it. I guess Lalo decides to keep this information to himself until he eventually disappears/dies.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

I can see it too I guess, but not when every other character was behaving so erradicly and unlike they were previously; Jimmy's behavior alone would be fine enough but when contrasted with everyone else changing so drastically it is as you said "very schizophrenic". Her wanting to ruin Howard over basically nothing is just insane. She is like all morbid about it to. It is so odd; they have to be setting it up that he like sexually assaulted her or something, or something he did reminds her of something else that really messed her up. Maybe it is one of those things we will be able to understand in retrospect. But as of now, it is just off the walls.

This is the bigger problem with this episode was by far Gus; as you said there is no amount excuses that someone can say that will say it was in character; it was the exact opposite of Gus's character. He would not take such a chance unless he know 100% all of his bases were covered. The thing is too, there was no immediate benefit. Lalo was out of the picture at least for a while; Gus would wait to see what he had planned next, especially since planned on continuing to use Nacho from within the Salamanca organization, and Lalo was trusting Nacho more and more. This was just panicked, reckless, poorly thought out, and hasty planning by Gus and we know 100% that is not in character. It was bad writing. And now because of it they are written into a corner. Gus tries to kill Lalo but somehow in BB timeframe he has no immediate issue with the Salamancas AND the Cartel basically love him? How are they going to get from here to there now? As you said is Lalo just going to conveniently not tell anyone?

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[–] FilmBuff (7435) 5 years ago

They've made it clear that Gus sees Lalo as an immediate existential threat. He's already burned down one of his buildings, and he's on a mission to quickly exterminate Gus. This isn't a situation that can be handled by biding time. He has a few weeks to either kill Lalo or be killed.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

Gus in breaking bad clearly is the type of person that bides his time for the perfect strike. Lalo was a threat to his immediate business but not to his overall plot. In fact Lalo was burning through the good graces of the cartel pretty fast, All Gus needed to do was bide his time and let Nacho slowly and carefully dismantle the Salamancas from within. how was Gus planning on hiding who hired the hit squad for the Don? How was Gus planning on explaining a hit squad taking out Lalo to the twins or Tuco or the other Salamanca's? This was so not the time to do a reckless strike like that. And one that he would not be able to confirm was even done or not. Come on, just because you like a show doesn't mean the writing is infallible.

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[–] FilmBuff (7435) 5 years ago

This isn't about liking the show or giving the writers any extra credit. Yes, in Breaking Bad, years later, Gus had ascended to a position of power where he could bide his time. Lalo was planning to have Gus killed within weeks. He had no time. He had to act immediately, and came up with the best plan given the circumstances. He did not have time to use Ignacio to slowly dismantle the Salamanca family. He also had the perfect fall guys in the rival cartel that tried to steal Lalo's $7 million.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

There was no way Lalo was going to have Gus killed. No way in hell with the cartel and Don still supporting his family. He did not have to act rashly. He was not in the position too. WHere did the show say that he was in immediate danger from Lalo?

The perfect fall guy? so the ragtag robber group could afford professional mercenaries? How was he planning on framing them when he has no contact with them in Mexico. You are stretching like crazy to make this work. It doesn't

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[–] FilmBuff (7435) 5 years ago

Re-watch the previous episodes-- Lalo openly says that as soon as he gets back to Mexico he is going to make sure that Gus is eliminated.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

he may have wanted to; but how? As long as Gus was in the Cartels good graces he was untouchable. Gus was safe, he just had the to deal with the inconveniences Lalo was causing. But with Lalo in Mexico he had time on his side. Everything Gus has done to this point and during breaking bad was slow plan things out and wait for the opportune moment was success was guaranteed. This was not even close to that. It was a Heisenberg move, not a Gus Fring move. Face it, it was out of character for Gus and bad writing (maybe the first example of bad writing from this show or the BB) but it was.

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[–] FilmBuff (7435) 5 years ago

By getting in the ear of the head of the cartel, as he did when he as able to orchestrate blowing up one of Gus' restaurants. Rewatch this season and last season, and you'll see that this ending, and Gus' behavior, was built up to over time.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

And you can see that the Don was getting annoyed by Lalo interrupting the business and money making. Hence why Lalo was working extra hard to kiss up in the season finally. Of the 2 of them Lalo was causing more problems. The blowing up of Gus' restaurant was not a sanctions cartel move. AND again Gus could not possibly be stupid and reckless enough to try to kill Lalo unless he 100% could insure it was done and he had a fall guy. He had neither with this 'hit squad move'.

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[–] FilmBuff (7435) 5 years ago

This is getting pointless. You're convinced that what you believe is gospel, so run with it.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

well until you can make an argument that I find compelling, then yes. You already got me to relent a bit on the progression and then regression of Saul in episode 10. You made a good enough argument that I relented and said 'fair enough' to it. You did not make a good argument about Gus's behavior.

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[–] Threadkiller (3089) 5 years ago

Come on, just because you like a show doesn't mean the writing is infallible.

Unfortunately I find this right here to be a problem with so many people. A show with a loyal following that's generally very strong in its writing seems to trigger this "can do no wrong" mindset where fans can't bring themselves to constructively criticize anything because their love of the show has reached unconditional fanboy territory where everything has to be perceived as amazing.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

Yeah, you see that with the Nolan fanboys; like he produces some good stuff but the second you question any of it; it is like they want to come at you with torches and pitchforks. Fanboying seems to cause critical thinking to go out the window.

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[–] chefao (456) 5 years ago

Nonsense. We still have no idea what will be the conclusion to all of this and if Gus has (for example) planned to pin the attack on someone else (the third party that tried to rob the 7mil *winkwink*). Except of course the OP who magically knows everything that's going to happen and just assumes everything to be shit writing. Thanks for enlightening us. I know you're totally not posting this to boost your own ego or anything.

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[–] Threadkiller (3089) 5 years ago

Honestly this is the kind of thinking/excuse making that reminds me of the fan boys who were in denial about Di$ney Star Wars Force Awakens came out and when people were pointing out all of the plot holes & contrivances, it was the same "Hey you don't know where there going with this. I'm sure they will make sense of all of it later" and of course we all know how that turned out.

Since the writers really don't have a choice regarding the ultimate outcome, it's obvious that Gus is somehow miraculously gets through this relatively unscathed because when we meet him in BB he's on good terms with the cartel and Lalo is out of the picture but they have written themselves into a corner to where it's going to be incredibly difficult for it not to look like a contrived ass pull of circumstances and that still doesn't change the poor setup involving Gus' extremely out of character blunders.

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[–] chefao (456) 5 years ago

That's like your opinion dude

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[–] Threadkiller (3089) 5 years ago

I think you mean "That's just like your opinion, man" as stated by The Dude

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

Personally, I have been in several firefights; I was in the military for many years. You don't change that drastically, and that is not how PTSD works, PTSD is a regression state of mind and something has to trigger it, in which you are triggered by something and you regress to the state of mind you had during the trauma; That is why PTSD for many veterans expresses itself as paranoia or hyper aggression/anger; because that is the state of mind you have in a firefight. and usually it take weeks or years after the trauma to manifest; what Jimmy was experiencing was prolonged state of shock. But okay; I can swallow that Jimmy/Saul would be that shaken up by these events; but why isn't kim? She like seemingly is aroused by the danger and threat. Up until 2 episodes ago she was a wanna be do gooder that expressed angst anytime Jimmy mentioned one of his scams or shady clients; now right after Jimmy is almost killed she ups and quits her job to do low level public defender work and then after being threatened by Lalo she turns into someone even darker then Jimmy. No, this is not how people act.

Gus would not do that because of the chance of failure and fall out from not only the Salamancas but also the Cartel. It is absolutely nothing like a Gus-like maneuver; it is a Walter White type of maneuver. Everyone would have known it was Gus that ordered it, it is silly that they are not going to. "probably the one who ambushed Jimmy" - no one is even aware of that except Gus's people. What the hell are you talking about.

Respectfully, I think you are just loving the show no matter what and not thinking critically. I also think you are not familiar with actual human nature (more like an academic's opinion of human nature) and even less concerned with character consistency. Why would I look for a flaw in a show that every other episode I have loved? The shit was obvious and from the vast majority of people agreeing with me, I am not the only one that saw it.

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[–] chefao (456) 5 years ago

Progression vs regression are two subjective concepts. What one person considers a progress, the other might consider a regression. If words were weapons I'm afraid you would be a lost case after those self-inflicted wounds. You come here to talk shit about a show that you have no ability to even begin to comprehend. "Oh no why did my favorite character change so drastically nooo". Guess what she didn't change at all. She was always seduced by Jimmy's dark side and that's why their relationship worked, with her taking part on his scams and even coming up with new ones. This is not something new. I don't think many regular people would stay the same after their loved one brings up a bag with hundreds of thousands of dollars and a bullet hole. Also a major point of the season (which you apparently missed) was Kim starting to care about the little guy more and the greedy corporation less. Now that she has fuckyou money she can let go and be who she wants to be. She wants to punish the greedy holierthanthou assholes like Howard and help the little guys. There is absolutely nothing about her that is out of character.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

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[–] spurtle467 (1558) 5 years ago

I wouldn't say I disliked it but it did seem quite anti-climatic after the 2 previous excellent episodes. It had the feel of a penultimate episode rather than a finale. I was sure someone of relevance was going to die in it and I think it would have worked better if they had, although with Lalo and the rest surviving it does set up for some interesting possibilities to come.

The less said about the hitmen the better. Mike would have probably kicked all their arses too had he been in Lalo's position.

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[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

Yeah, some best of the best guys they were. that was a rather pathetic showing and I don't believe for a second Gus would risk so much on such incompetent group.

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[–] jasonbourne (1027) 5 years ago

It's because Gus had Ignacio inside for him. Nacho just wants to make a big score and get out, but this isn't possible anymore. He's in too deep. What's interesting is he has risen more with the Salamancas than with Fring, but he betrays the Salamancas. Thus, Lalo could've and should've been taken out. I have a hard time believing what happened in episode 10 would happen in real life. It may have been a Heisenberg move, but he did take out Hector and Gus at the same time.

I agree with Kim breaking bad, but now we are finding her true self and why she fell for Jimmy. Howard did put a doubt in her mind with Chuck knowing Jimmy the best.

As for the rest, I liked the ending to season 5 and will be watching season 6. Kim should be Breaking Bad more and so will Jimmy as Saul Goodman. What's not certain is what happens to Kim. She may die or go into hiding. Her lawyer career is settled for now.

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[–] Threadkiller (3089) 4 years ago

"It's because Gus had Ignacio inside for him."

That doesn't really explain Gus making the dumb & impulsive decision to plan a half baked assassination attempt on Lalo or his almost equally dumb decision to compromise Nacho as an asset by throwing him into the mix at the last minute so he can unlock a gate (seriously 🤣).

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