MovieChat Forums > Obvious Child (2014) Discussion > Nice little movie, but some people here....

Nice little movie, but some people here... Wow!


In what world and what decade do you people live in? So she wanted to and did have an abortion, as a lot of women out there who don't want to have a baby. Big fvcking deal!

You take a look at some posts here and it's "murderer!", glorifying murder". What? How is it anybody's business what a woman chooses to do other than hers? What's with that regressive mentality going on here? Why are we even talking about it? Shouldn't it at this point be a given that one has all the right to do what one wants with their own body?

I know, it's not the most pleasant experience one can have, but when you know that for whatever reason you're not ready/prepared/equipped/willing to have a baby, isn't it a responsible thing to choose not to have it?

And I don't care what religions have to say on the matter, everyone has their own brain and their own values and morals. And I just can't understand how telling women what they can and can't do with their own body is noble. I thought we were in the 21st century. That mentality belongs in the past.

Happy to here other opinions because it's really baffling to me that this is still a discussion.

"Go. Sleep badly. Any questions, hesitate to call"

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I completely agree.

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You really can't understand why some believe ending a life, an innocent one no less, is kind of terrible? You're seemingly pro-choice. Ok, no problem. But baffling? Honestly? Like, you can't even comprehend it?

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[deleted]

I think the OP means it's baffling that people are still fighting over it. Everyone knows that abortion is a bad thing. No one is "pro-abortion". That's just a way that pro-lifers (anti-choicers?) slant the argument in their favor.

That's not what pro-choice means. It's more about the thought of the government telling women what they have to do with their bodies. My girlfriend and I are pro-choice, but we would use our choice to not get an abortion. But we are smart enough to realize that not every situation is the same.

What's baffling to me is that people are still fighting about gay marriages and gay being a choice.

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Everyone knows that abortion is a bad thing. No one is "pro-abortion".

Well, yeah, I'm going around in clinics or wherever whispering to pregnant women "come on, why keep it? don't be stupid" :)

We agree, not every situation is the same and I would never tell anyone what to do. It is and should be their choice. And I couldn't agree more with your last sentence.

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I think the OP means it's baffling that people are still fighting over it. Everyone knows that abortion is a bad thing. No one is "pro-abortion". That's just a way that pro-lifers (anti-choicers?) slant the argument in their favor.

That's not what pro-choice means. It's more about the thought of the government telling women what they have to do with their bodies. My girlfriend and I are pro-choice, but we would use our choice to not get an abortion. But we are smart enough to realize that not every situation is the same.

What's baffling to me is that people are still fighting about gay marriages and gay being a choice.


If someone believes it is murder, I think the better question is why wouldn't they fight for it? You don't have to agree with their beliefs to understand qhy they feel so strongly about it.

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You'd have a better argument if the people fighting for the fetuses gave a rat's ass about the child once it was born.

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(and if they are against death penalty)

Anyway...I would have loved to like it because there was no sudden "epiphany" or last moment telling her "let's keep it. let's do this together"...but it's just forgettable. It's not that funny and the lead character sometimes is borderline annoying. It's not a bad movie, but it's not something I would recommend to anyone either.

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You'd have a better argument if the people fighting for the fetuses gave a rat's ass about the child once it was born.




Yes! Thank-you.

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No, I obviously understand that everyone has their own way of thinking, and I'm perfectly fine with someone believing that abortion it's a wrong thing to do. But to enforce that opinion to everybody else, that's a problem.

What do you care, for example, if a woman you don't know chooses to not keep a baby, does that affect you in any way? It's the same thing with gay couples wanting to get married. How can it possibly be anybody else's business but theirs?

Raising a child is probably the biggest responsibility one can have and it's not to be taken lightly. If she knows she doesn't have the money or the maturity or the will to do that, for me it's more responsible to not do it.

I'm a man, so I couldn't possibly understand how a woman in such a situation would feel, but I do believe that she has the right to decide for herself. It's how it's supposed to be in a civilized and democratic society.

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No, I obviously understand that everyone has their own way of thinking, and I'm perfectly fine with someone believing that abortion it's a wrong thing to do. But to enforce that opinion to everybody else, that's a problem.

What do you care, for example, if a woman you don't know chooses to not keep a baby, does that affect you in any way? It's the same thing with gay couples wanting to get married. How can it possibly be anybody else's business but theirs?

Raising a child is probably the biggest responsibility one can have and it's not to be taken lightly. If she knows she doesn't have the money or the maturity or the will to do that, for me it's more responsible to not do it.


You say you understand, but statements like this indicate you do not.

They believe it is murder and murder of the most innocent form of life our species will ever know. Regardless of how you feel about abortion, it can't be argued that an unborn person has literally never done anything to anyone. And you don't understand why they'd want to protect that? You don't have to agree with it, but how can you not grasp that?


I'm a man, so I couldn't possibly understand how a woman in such a situation would feel, but I do believe that she has the right to decide for herself. It's how it's supposed to be in a civilized and democratic society.


So you lack empathy? I'm not gay, but I can understand what it would feel like to be told you can't have the same rights (marriage) as other couples. I don't have to be gay to understand that.

The way it works, allowing only one person to have a say in a situation that involves and affects 3 individuals, is about as far away from democracy as you can get.

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There is a difference between believing in something and forcing that belief to others. Is that so hard for you to get?

allowing only one person to have a say in a situation that involves and affects 3 individuals, is about as far away from democracy as you can get

They're not 3, they're 2 (a fetus can't have a say), and yes, they both have a say, I was just taking it from the woman's perspective in that sentence. And, you know, in many cases there isn't any male figure in the picture for whatever reason. The only constant is the woman.

So you lack empathy?

That's what I get for being completely honest on the Internet. Sure, I can imagine what it feels like, I can empathize. But the same way I couldn't understand exactly how painful childbirth is, or a woman couldn't get what a punch to the balls feels like, I wouldn't be able to understand exactly how a woman feels during that process.

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There is a difference between believing in something and forcing that belief to others. Is that so hard for you to get?

Yeah, you definitely don't get it.


They're not 3, they're 2 (a fetus can't have a say), and yes, they both have a say, I was just taking it from the woman's perspective in that sentence. And, you know, in many cases there isn't any male figure in the picture for whatever reason. The only constant is the woman.


I never said a fetus could have a say. I said there are three people involved and affected by one person's decision (and if you don't think the fetus is affected by the decision, that sort of explains why you don't get pro-lifers objections to abortion). You're not going to either. It's about rights to you. It's about life to them. It will never make sense to you.

That's what I get for being completely honest on the Internet.


No, that's what you get for stupid statements.

Sure, I can imagine what it feels like, I can empathize. But the same way I couldn't understand exactly how painful childbirth is, or a woman couldn't get what a punch to the balls feels like, I wouldn't be able to understand exactly how a woman feels during that process.


And as a result, you should have no say in the process. That's your logic anyway. That's fundamentally flawed logic.

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What is happening here, am I losing my mind? It seems like we're having two different conversations and you're trying to argue and convince me about something as if I'm wrong, when I never mention said thing.

From the OP I was saying how wrong it seems to me to attack people and force your opinions to them and you're saying that they have the right to have a different opinion. I never said they don't. English isn't my language but I think it was fairly clear.

You call my statement stupid but I think it's reasonable for someone to admit they don't know everything about everything and every situation. I guess we disagree.

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You're doing fine. Don't worry about it.

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Thanks, man :)

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Meandeanmachine:
Yes, what the other poster said. You're doing fine.

*goes back to reading the rest of thread*

**Have an A1 day**

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What is happening here, am I losing my mind? It seems like we're having two different conversations and you're trying to argue and convince me about something as if I'm wrong, when I never mention said thing.

From the OP I was saying how wrong it seems to me to attack people and force your opinions to them and you're saying that they have the right to have a different opinion. I never said they don't. English isn't my language but I think it was fairly clear.

You call my statement stupid but I think it's reasonable for someone to admit they don't know everything about everything and every situation. I guess we disagree.


..is that pro-lifers think abortion is not only murder, but murder of the most innocent form of life. It's not about beliefs or opinions to a pro-life person. It's about saving innocent lives. They think abortion is murder. Even if you don't agree with that, it should not this hard to understand why they fight so hard against it (abortion).

And don't pretend that pro-life people are the only ones who force their beliefs on others. Liberals/Democrats do it all the time too.

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I appreciate you calming down the aggressiveness. :)

pro-lifers think abortion is not only murder...

I wanted to ask. Are you one, or are we having a conversation about them without them? Anyway, here's the thing. I'm all for people, you know, voicing issues that are important to them, fighting (non-violently) for causes and such.

But there's a line that people cross and what they're doing suddenly is very similar to fascism. I've noticed (in society, on boards like this) that line being crossed on that matter as well as on conversations about gay rights etc. And when I say that everyone should decide for themselves (e.g. if they want to have an abortion), I don't think I'm forcing my opinion, it's the opposite.

I'm not sure what Liberals/Democrats do or not do, I'm not American (I guess you are). I don't really like that, it feels like we're putting labels on everybody, instead of listening what they're saying. "Oh, he's a liberal, of course he says that.. oh he's conservative, what did you expect", it's not exactly good discussion material.

I see that all the time though, is it really so polarized in the US, you're either Democrat or Republican? That's a genuine question, you know, I'm not making fun of Americans or something, just curious.

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I wanted to ask. Are you one, or are we having a conversation about them without them? Anyway, here's the thing. I'm all for people, you know, voicing issues that are important to them, fighting (non-violently) for causes and such.

But there's a line that people cross and what they're doing suddenly is very similar to fascism. I've noticed (in society, on boards like this) that line being crossed on that matter as well as on conversations about gay rights etc. And when I say that everyone should decide for themselves (e.g. if they want to have an abortion), I don't think I'm forcing my opinion, it's the opposite.

I'm not sure what Liberals/Democrats do or not do, I'm not American (I guess you are). I don't really like that, it feels like we're putting labels on everybody, instead of listening what they're saying. "Oh, he's a liberal, of course he says that.. oh he's conservative, what did you expect", it's not exactly good discussion material.

I see that all the time though, is it really so polarized in the US, you're either Democrat or Republican? That's a genuine question, you know, I'm not making fun of Americans or something, just curious
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I'm neither pro-choice nor pro-life. I despise abortion, but agree with it in some instances. I wish humanity never thought of it, but would never outlaw it. I hate people like the Nellie character. I think they are self-centered and ugly (and I ain't talking about their looks).

There are many political parties in the U.S., but aside from the very rare politician, they stand no real chance in an election.


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I wish humanity never thought of it, but would never outlaw it.

That's perfectly reasonable. Our difference is that I'm fine with humanity thinking of it, but that's OK.

I hate people like the Nellie character

You mean when they were discussing whether to tell the father and she burst out hating the guy for no good reason? Yeah, that was weird. And unattractive, as stupidity is.

There are many political parties in the U.S., but aside from the very rare politician, they stand no real chance in an election.

No I meant the people. Like in conversations, do people identify or being labeled with either party? I'm not there obviously and what I see is, you know, posts on sites like here, Youtube or wherever, and it always comes down to comments like that, bashing each others party or something, as if it's a given that you affiliate yourself with one or the other.

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You mean when they were discussing whether to tell the father and she burst out hating the guy for no good reason? Yeah, that was weird. And unattractive, as stupidity is.


That's a very big part of it, yes. The fact that she couldn't even discuss it without losing it does not endear her to me. I know people like that too. I also think it was completely unreasonable of her to absolutely lose it at the very notion he should know Donna was going to have the abortion.

As I indicated earlier, I'm also not a fan of one person having a say in such a delicate matter that affects at least three. I think it's disgusting in fact that a father has no rights, but is demanded response should the woman have the child. There's nothing rational about that.


No I meant the people. Like in conversations, do people identify or being labeled with either party? I'm not there obviously and what I see is, you know, posts on sites like here, Youtube or wherever, and it always comes down to comments like that, bashing each others party or something, as if it's a given that you affiliate yourself with one or the other.


While in the minority, this chart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_the_United_States#me diaviewer/File:U.S._party_affiliation.svg claims there are as many as 42 million indepdendent voters in the U.S. I have a hard time believing that, but even if it's true, most vote either Democrat or Republican in major elections.

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Meandeanmachine said:

"I see that all the time though, is it really so polarized in the US, you're either Democrat or Republican? That's a genuine question, you know, I'm not making fun of Americans or something, just curious."


I'm not in America either, but I'm right next door in Canada, where abortion is not only legal, it is covered by our national health care system and can be performed safely in a hospital. I believe the exceptions are hospitals with Catholic funding.

And I am following the U.S. political debate surrounding the issue of abortion.

True story, re: Senator Wendy Davis. She held an 11-hour filibuster in the Texas Senate to prevent the passage of a bill intended to further erode women's rights to determine their own destinies. You can look up Texas Senate Bill 5 if you are so inclined.

Long story short - despite her efforts, her opposition merely skirted around the law and did what they wanted anyway. These are the depths to which conservative politicians are willing to lower themselves, and this is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to these politicians acting like malicious spoiled children (republican's shutdown of government, anyone?) if they're not getting their way.

And the two-party system is a source of frustration for many U.S. citizens, but right now, it's pretty much all they've got.

**Have an A1 day**

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And the two-party system is a source of frustration for many U.S. citizens, but right now, it's pretty much all they've got.


I can't remember who said this and will butcher the quote, but it was something like "You have a two party system in the US. That's only one more than communism."

But yes, many people here in the US are frustrated with our political system (and the two main parties fighting over who wants to bleed us dry first).

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The Texas story you mentioned somehow doesn't surprise me :) Since US culture is influential all over the world, I'm a bit familiar with a lot of stuff, like how notorious the southern states are for pure conservatism.

I think the source of all these problems is religion. It's really a paradox that USA has a historically important constitution that it's secular and goes out of its way to keep religion out of the government, and yet it's a very religious country, so much so to have an effect in the public discourse.

To get to our topic of abortion, I'm pretty sure that if, say, the Pope were to speak tomorrow and say that abortion is fine, it would stop being an issue.

I mean, it's a complicated issue, especially when it comes to making a law, but for example, if the pregnancy is the result of rape, are we really forcing a woman to have the child if she doesn't want to? Is that what Jesus would do? lol

As for the two-party system. I live in a country with a multiple-party parliament and I don't find it any better. Democracy, as we have it in western societies, is very flawed but it's the best we've got.

these politicians acting like malicious spoiled children (republican's shutdown of government, anyone?)

I remember seeing Mitch McConnell when that happened, having a smug little smile on his face as he was saying they'll do whatever they can to block the Democrats. All while people's lives were affected by the shutdown, and he clearly didn't give a crap.

*Anyway, thanks for replying and sorry for the length of my post :)

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Meandeanmachine:

Just a quick response for now, as this is all I have time for at the moment:

I'm pretty sure that if, say, the Pope were to speak tomorrow and say that abortion is fine, it would stop being an issue.


This is demonstrably incorrect. The Pope has spoken out against condemning gay persons, among other issues of intolerance, and his advice has gone largely unheeded by people who continue to politicize their hatred and bigotry, and they augment/justify their responses by criticizing the Pope and his "weak" policies.

**Have an A1 day**

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P.S: Re: Abortion: The Vatican will never alter its policies which pertain to maintaining and enforcing women's second-class status in society and denying their rights to determine their own destinies. The very premise of the CC's narrative is built on the concept of women being inherently "evil" and "weak" (Genesis) - so for the church to acknowledge women's rights, is to remove the bedrock upon which the church has been built.

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I guess you're right about the Pope, I wouldn't know. In any case, it's very hard for people to fundamentally change their minds on things they believe their whole lives, so my hope is that future generations will know better and learn to tolerate others.

And about the woman's status, you're absolutely right. Just think about how one of the Commandments (Thou shalt not covet) mentions them as a man's property along with his ox and his donkey. Religions consider them below men and the only reason this has (in a degree) changed in western societies is that we don't have theocracies any more. In Arab/Muslim countries they still do, and that's why women are treated so horribly.

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Meandeanmachine, thank you for your comments and observations, and may I observe in return that keeping a close eye on what powerful and influential people are telling the masses to think and believe, is particularly necessary for people who are marginalized in society.

And while it may be perceived that things have changed to some degree - that is a matter of perspective according to where one falls in the heirarchy of privilege. Or if one is working towards allyship with marginalized groups.

This is from another post I made just a short while ago:

"...And what I also mean to say is that a thing like rape culture cannot exist without the complicity of a great many people in upholding it. I see it in the generally accepted ideals of some of my friends when they make off-handed comments like "she shouldn't dress that way if she doesn't want to get raped", and then go on to elaborate about things like "self-respect" when making connections between female dress and how much "respect" she may or may not expect from others based on her fashion choices. This is rape culture in operation, invisible to us even as we look at other cultures which prescribe their own fashion edicts for girls and women (and the consequences for failing to heed them) - and find them to be excessively oppressive."

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Well, it's nice and informative having a conversation on such issues with someone of the opposite sex and from the opposite side of the Atlantic, so I appreciate it too.

Now, in western societies I do think things have changed. We're not there yet, but they have. It's not a cause for celebration, but they're the first steps towards the goal of true equality. That said, until people realize that gender, race, sexual orientation, religion are non factors in terms of human rights, the world won't know peace.

But when I say that we in the west are in a somewhat improved situation, is because I think our focus should be in Islamic countries. Right now in Europe immigrants are coming by the millions from Syria, running away from a civil -more like sectarian- war.

You have savages like ISIS there in the mix, with the ideologies they represent (which come from religion), bullying and murdering people for the fun of it, destroying art from some of the earliest civilizations in history, and wanting to basically conquer the world. And their version of Quran, albeit less extreme, is followed by many other people and states, where being a woman or a minority let's say isn't the best hand you can be dealt upon birth.


*As for the rape culture, again you're right. I mean, "she shouldn't dress that way", that's a classic. What does that even mean? Sure, maybe a woman gets dressed in a certain way because she wants to hook up by the end of the night. She still wants and has the right to choose with whom will that be. To say otherwise is preposterous and, frankly, sick. And what are we saying? That the rapist wouldn't do it if she was dressed differently? Yeah, he was such a nice guy, she provoked him. Jesus, how can anyone shamelessly say such things with a straight face?

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Ditto to the niceness of having a conversation with you as well.

I will maintain, however, that the mirror will always keep disappearing when we keep our focus on the "they" "over there". "Over there", rape culture feels as natural and commonplace as what we say and do "over here". It's hard to perceive, but women are under enormous pressure to do all of the preventing of their own assaults - and so many of us behave as though this is all the stuff of perfectly natural rules of society.

Re: North America

There has been a burning of a rape victim's home "over here".
Recently, a victim's hospital rape kit turned up on their front porch.
People still defend Bill Cosby.
Etc.

I have seen people whom I've known since girlhood, grow into women who say, "Yes, but....." when I've attempted to help them see how they contribute to rape culture - in their own, non-"savage" ways. That's the thing: "polite society" doesn't ever want to talk about it - except when they're saying things that uphold rape culture. Otherwise, the crickets can be deafening. All women, in all nations, need to be free of rape culture in order to be truly heard and truly effective in having a hand in shaping this world.

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"Over there" there isn't a rape culture as we mean it, they just don't give a shìt. Over here in our "advanced" societies we allow ourselves and others to believe that there's any kind of validity to the "yes, but...".

I can't decide which is worse. I mean, obviously over there is worse as a condition, but it's appalling to see so called evolved nations and people fail to grasp the harm that's being done when they're indifferent and casual towards rape and its victims.

Bill Cosby is one example, though since it's more recent, he's generally getting what he should. Personally, I haven't heard anything positive about him, but I haven't looked for it either. Another example is Roman Polanski, who somehow managed to live his life and even win Oscars in the meantime, and I don't see an outrage regarding his case. People forget very easily.

But what you say is interesting, I find it amazing that women come to the point of blaming the victims, I mean, not that when men do it it's acceptable, but I can understand it better. But women themselves, I just don't get it. Do they lower those women-victims to feel better for themselves, what can possibly be the motivation?

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I've said it before in other places, and I'll say it again here: Women are indeed some of the biggest upholders of rape culture. And my opinion for the reason for that is because it allows women to align themselves with the power and privilege normally reserved for men; it allows them to distance themselves from the possibility of being victimized (because they are a "good girl; not like those sluts over there") and it allows them to believe that they are therefore exempt from rape culture (they're not).

Ridding oneself, as a woman, of these power schemes is a real process, and takes time and effort. I am living proof of this - and I'll admit that it is a lifetime journey in un-indoctrinating oneself.

It's not unusual to observe members of an oppressed group aligning and identifying themselves, with their oppressors, in order to make their individual lives easier. But the buck's gotta stop somewhere, sometime.

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Well, I hope you reach your desired destination in your journey. Like I said before though, I'm afraid it's perhaps too late for vast numbers of women to change their minds and attitudes, especially the older they get.

It's very challenging to radically change your ways and beliefs once they're set. I think the key here is education, in schools, colleges, wherever, so that young girls grow up informed and know that it can happen to anyone.

On a side note, it's funny how a small indie movie ends up producing such a discussion :) Anyway, a thing about abortion and another oddity regarding USA. I was looking about the legal status around the world, and in Europe in almost all countries it's legal. When you think about how the States were formed, you know, immigrants from Europe, building something new, away from the old ways, it's strange how they ended up being regressive on issues like that. Now that I look, I sound judgmental and I wasn't going for that :)

Oh, and a question, because this one is really baffling. Are they seriously on their way to get Trump to run for President, or is it just the media blowing it out of proportion? Because Bush is Ab Lincoln compared to him.

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It's very challenging to radically change your ways and beliefs once they're set.


I grew up, for example, in a racist culture, where white people pretended that "color doesn't matter", which kept them from ever confronting the racism that was a very part of their/our identity. And/but I also walked into the girls' bathroom in high school one morning and saw my name and "slut" spelled out in huge block letters by another girl as yet unrevealed to me (she confessed to it later): this had less to do with whether or not I was a sexually active female, and more to do with policing and controlling my (and others') estimation of my worth as a human being, based on those allegations. I instinctively understood the dynamic at play, and didn't take the bait, though it was still a little embarrassing and the wrong kind of attention. It's hard for one's ways to become "set", or to become absolutely certain of people, when one steps outside of the game and tends to stay there a goodly amount of the time. People look very different to me from here.

But yeah. Some people I have no hope for; I just hope they die without passing on their squalid "wisdom" to any unsuspecting young people.


I think the key here is education, in schools, colleges, wherever, so that young girls grow up informed and know that it can happen to anyone.


Young girls are pushing back against rape culture at more levels than ever before, or so I am perceiving.

On a side note, it's funny how a small indie movie ends up producing such a discussion :)


EDITORIAL NOTE: Massive apologies; I was cross-posting from the movie "Wild" in regards to the following paragraph - but I'm going to leave it in for the heck of it:

Not so funny from where I sit. All through the movie, I mused that a woman roughing it on her own is almost exactly like a man doing the same - except that women have to deal with an "extra" type of bear that might cross her path out there in the wild. (or anywhere else)

BACK TO OBVIOUS CHILD: - Of course this movie would provoke such a discussion, especially since it handles the subject matter in a way that is not the main current conservative narrative surrounding abortion and the women who have them. Personally, I found its perspective a much-needed one, and overall a positive film about a sensitive topic.

Anyway, a thing about abortion and another oddity regarding USA. I was looking about the legal status around the world, and in Europe in almost all countries it's legal. When you think about how the States were formed, you know, immigrants from Europe, building something new, away from the old ways, it's strange how they ended up being regressive on issues like that. Now that I look, I sound judgmental and I wasn't going for that :)


I live in Canada, where abortion is not only legal, it's paid for through our healthcare system. Our province's Human Rights Commission also appears to have a little teeth to it, so there's that as well. We've got a little problem with our conservative PM Harper, though.

Oh, and a question, because this one is really baffling. Are they seriously on their way to get Trump to run for President, or is it just the media blowing it out of proportion? Because Bush is Ab Lincoln compared to him.


As I said, I'm from Canada, but I do follow some of US politics, and what I can tell you is that I'm hoping this is all just a stupid little circus leading up to more serious politics as they get closer to November 2016.



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It's hard for one's ways to become "set", or to become absolutely certain of people, when one steps outside of the game...

Agreed, but what you describe is a huge leap. I know cause I've made it too. Where I'm from there isn't a separation of church and state, and from birth through school one grows up a Christian. We also have lots of immigrants and that's a recipe for racism.

I remember growing up, there was a lot of hate going around and for me the key was philosophy. I had the feeling that something was wrong with the way things were, but I couldn't put my finger on it until all these ideas from philosophers and great thinkers opened a whole new undiscovered avenue.

*As for mixing up the threads, don't worry about it, it happens :) "Wild" is the one with Reese Witherspoon, right? I haven't seen it yet, is it good?

*About Obvious Child. I couldn't agree more with your point. As I was watching it, I was worried that they'd chicken out and have her keep it, and I was so glad they didn't. As a movie it's nothing spectacular, but it's a brave thing to take such an unpopular (or better, anti-status quo) approach and -like you said- a much-needed one, to a topic as important as this.

*My bad, I should've phrase it differently. I knew you were from Canada, you had mentioned before, but you had also said you're familiar with US society and politics, so I thought you may have a better understanding of things over there. As for Trump, I hope it's a circus too, cause if it's for real it's not funny at all, it's just sad.

"Go. Sleep badly. Any questions, hesitate to call"

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Agreed, but what you describe is a huge leap. I know cause I've made it too. Where I'm from there isn't a separation of church and state, and from birth through school one grows up a Christian. We also have lots of immigrants and that's a recipe for racism.


I spotted something very thought-provoking on my FB page this morning:

Yes, Britain is a beautiful place to live, and we are lucky to be born here. Because of other people's oil, other people's sugar, other people's tea, other people's money. You weren't born in a country – you were born in a getaway car, and the victims have been chasing you down ever since by boat, by lorry, and on foot”. - FBoyle

- Same goes for any country that became rich by plundering and stealing from other nations.

I remember growing up, there was a lot of hate going around


So much for
Christianity
being a "religion of peace". *shakes head*

and for me the key was philosophy. I had the feeling that something was wrong with the way things were, but I couldn't put my finger on it until all these ideas from philosophers and great thinkers opened a whole new undiscovered avenue.


Yes, and books, for those of us who were as yet too young for formal philosophers/philosophy. Books, books, books!!

*As for mixing up the threads, don't worry about it, it happens :) "Wild" is the one with Reese Witherspoon, right? I haven't seen it yet, is it good?


Yes, I enjoyed it. And it reminded me of the time I hitchhiked to Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada. And for the people on that board saying that the character had a "skewed vision of men" - I can say that the proportion of her encounters with respectful men v (potential) rapists, was spot-on.

*About Obvious Child. I couldn't agree more with your point. As I was watching it, I was worried that they'd chicken out and have her keep it, and I was so glad they didn't. As a movie it's nothing spectacular, but it's a brave thing to take such an unpopular (or better, anti-status quo) approach and -like you said- a much-needed one, to a topic as important as this.


By age 20, 10% of women will have had an abortion; by age 30, 25%; and by age 40, 30%.

Source: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

That's a lot of women whose stories are being (and have been) ignored and distorted by anti-choice proponents.

*My bad, I should've phrase it differently. I knew you were from Canada, you had mentioned before, but you had also said you're familiar with US society and politics, so I thought you may have a better understanding of things over there. As for Trump, I hope it's a circus too, cause if it's for real it's not funny at all, it's just sad.


But privileged white men are finding him "hilarious". For others who would be most affected by his garbage policies should he come into power, he is terrifying. What's also frightening is that he is the leading conservative candidate last time I checked. This says volumes about where people's minds are at.

**Have an A1 day**

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You weren't born in a country – you were born in a getaway car, and the victims have been chasing you down ever since by boat, by lorry, and on foot”. - FBoyle

- Same goes for any country that became rich by plundering and stealing from other nations.

Well, I'm from Greece and we haven't been imperialistic since Alexander the Great, but what you say is very true. In our case though, is more due to the fact that we're somewhat a passage to Europe like now with the Syrians, or that we're south to ex Yugo countries etc. and there it gets more complicated.

So much for Christianity being a "religion of peace"

I always found the hypocrisy fascinating. For a few years now the third biggest party in our parliament is a nationalist, far far right party. To be precise, they're fascists, and they're all about kicking all immigrants out and so forth. And they're all about Christianity and nation, and if you were to watch them, they're vile, hateful people. Yeah, religion of peace, alright.

ignored and distorted by anti-choice proponents

I was thinking how they call it "pro-life" and George Carlin comes to mind. He used to say about them, how they advocate for the babies, but "once you're born, you're on your own". If you haven't already, check him out, he was brilliant.

"Go. Sleep badly. Any questions, hesitate to call"

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Once again, short on time today, as I'm working a split shift. But!

I was thinking how they call it "pro-life" and George Carlin comes to mind. He used to say about them, how they advocate for the babies, but "once you're born, you're on your own". If you haven't already, check him out, he was brilliant.


I did indeed - at Roy Thomspon Hall in Toronto, sometime in the 80's. I was invited by a comedian friend of mine, and we saw George Carlin live!! It was great fun, thought-provoking and very interesting!

EDIT: I've also been to Greece - visited Athens and some of the Islands. It is a spectacular country, and I wish you all the luck in the world.


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Wow, OK, I admit I'm jealous that you got to see him live, but there's nothing to be done. I was born too late and too far away to ever have the chance :)

...I wish you all the luck in the world

If you're even vaguely aware of the situation in Europe with the economy and all, you know we can use all the luck we can get... It is, it's a beautiful place, but with a lot of fvcked up people making the decisions over the years.

This is officially the nicest conversation I've ever had on the internet, so thank you for that. I know, it's just a stereotype that Canadians are super polite people, but if you're any indication, then there must be some truth to stereotypes!

"Go. Sleep badly. Any questions, hesitate to call"

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Jealous indeed, young man!! Like Jon Lovitz used to say, "Jealous? Don't be!! LIVE THRRRROUGH ME!!!"

I am more than a little vaguely aware of the situation in (Greece), but not in-depth enough. But enough to distress me to think that such a beautiful nation, a wonderful people and culture, should be brought to this/these difficulties. Your nation is a jewel upon the world, and I would very much like to move there in my retirement. Better start learning the language now, I suppose. Seriously, though - and again, I wish the people of Greece, both young and old, all the best of good fortune in this situation turning around. If anyone deserves it, it's y'all.

The Canadian stereotype is 100% correct. Also, we all have to know how to paddle a canoe. It's mandatory, eh. ;)

I've just returned from a trying doctor's appointment, and/but if you'd like to keep talking this movie, go on ahead and make your comments/questions. I need a bit of a lie-down, but I'll be back presently.

Cheers, MDM

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Thanks for your kind words and I hope the appointment went well.

Now, I consider myself the opposite of a chauvinist, in fact I don't really believe in nations. We are all different and it's a good, interesting thing, but in the end we're just humans on the same planet, citizens of the world.

That said, objectively speaking, Ancient Greece was indeed a "jewel upon the world" as you put it, arguably the most important and influential civilization in history. Modern Greece? It may sound harsh, but I'd consider it an example of how not to build a society. It hasn't been all our fault, we've had occupations (Ottomans, Nazis) etc., but for roughly 200 years now we've been playing catch up with the western world, and it has been sloppy and in all the wrong ways.

Anyway, sorry about that, I could go on and on, but it's tiresome, especially for someone who isn't Greek. With the crisis and the depression we've been dealing with, every other conversation here is about economics, the closest thing to a rock star we've had recently was the former minister of finance :P

* Changing the subject. From what you've said so far I get the impression that you're a feminist, advocating for women's rights etc. I couldn't tell how active you are, but that's the sense I'm getting. I don't know if a man can be one, but I consider myself a feminist too. Admittedly, not a particularly active one, but in the same way that I was saying that I don't believe in nations, I think gender, sex orientation, race, creed, etc., are not reasons for any inequality.

All that said, I've noticed activists, whether they're feminists or for social justice or whatever, who become aggressive in their approach, so much so that it looks as if they hate those who they consider to be privileged (usually men, and in particular, white). I hope that made sense, my English is far from great :)

Now, I was saying that because I think they're hurting their own causes, even if they don't realize it. Have you noticed what I'm describing or am I way off? And, if you don't mind me asking, what do you think should be done, what should be the steps if we are to achieve equality?

*OK, that ended up way longer than expected, sorry!

"Go. Sleep badly. Any questions, hesitate to call"

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These are all great questions, and I will give them the thought and consideration they require to properly answer them. I will reply by tomorrow at the latest.
Thanks.

**Have an A1 day**

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Thanks for your kind words and I hope the appointment went well


You're welcome, and thank you. :)

Now, I consider myself the opposite of a chauvinist, in fact I don't really believe in nations. We are all different and it's a good, interesting thing, but in the end we're just humans on the same planet, citizens of the world.


You are certainly not alone in believing in human beings' inherent citizenship of this entire planet. I think one of the reasons we fail to be proper stewards of the earth is because we are entrained to care only for “our” corner of it – and to ignore (when we're not actively hating) the good majority of the rest of it. We are also perhaps entrained to form an identity, which actually necessitates the eclipsing and “othering” of anyone else with differences (from “us”). That goes for nationalism, for ableism, for sexism, for racism, and you could probably think of a few more “ism's” as well. And never forget “classism”, either.

That said, objectively speaking, Ancient Greece was indeed a "jewel upon the world" as you put it, arguably the most important and influential civilization in history. Modern Greece? It may sound harsh, but I'd consider it an example of how not to build a society. It hasn't been all our fault, we've had occupations (Ottomans, Nazis) etc., but for roughly 200 years now we've been playing catch up with the western world, and it has been sloppy and in all the wrong ways. 


I think the wrong thing for me to do would be to tell you how to “fix” your own country – even if I knew. But do you think it would be good, if not great, if Alexander could come back to life?

Anyway, sorry about that, I could go on and on, but it's tiresome, especially for someone who isn't Greek. With the crisis and the depression we've been dealing with, every other conversation here is about economics, the closest thing to a rock star we've had recently was the former minister of finance :P 


Wow, I was in Thessaliniki during one of your elections, and I remember seeing what looked like a bar patio, filled with people, all of them talking with each other, and the big-screen patio TV showing the election candidates; this happened in Kelli as well, and I said, y'all don't have sports bars here – you have “election bars”....lol. Every home I went to had the candidates on the television. The people seemed excited and involved. But that's just an outsider's perception. I can tell you one thing: all the big-screen TV's in the bars here are showing football or baseball – no politics. I really had the sense that the people of Greece have got it going on when it comes to public discourse.

* Changing the subject. From what you've said so far I get the impression that you're a feminist, advocating for women's rights etc.


***Jumping ahead a little to what you talk about above, and also your paragraph below:***

I used to think feminists were too angry. I also used to think atheists were too angry. And I used to think black people were really angry. And I was a person who got turned off by people's anger; I found it intimidating. And being intimidated was a sign to myself that it was somehow then “OK” for me to stop listening to whatever people were trying to tell me.

My listening was thus conditional; my understanding had a price. But observe: it was ***me*** who was setting those terms; it was me requiring that oppressed people should make MY comfort their priority, before they could even begin to speak to me. Put yourself in any of their places. Wouldn't you be angry, too?

If you broke your leg in the street, yelling in pain, and the ambulance pulls up and the attendants say, “Now, we're not going to do a single thing to start helping until you lower your tone, Mister...” - wouldn't that make you just blow your stack? What if it happened every time you needed someone to listen? Like, every, single, time?

I'll just say this:

There is nothing that begins to abate a person's anger more effectively than to show that you are really listening. I can almost guarantee this. And as you listen, you'll begin to hear real pain – pain that has been made so much worse from not having been heard in the past.

Before I really began trying to publicly step up to the plate to push back against misogyny, I entered the field of helping in the disabled community. As an able-bodied person, I'd given little, if any thought, to the barriers that people with disabilities face when trying to move about in public society. I spot some of these barriers now, pretty much every day (and the province of Ontario is really pushing for 100% accessibility), but having said that, I can never really know the perspective of a person who uses a wheelchair all of their lives. But. I can listen, and I can advocate for them when and where I can – most especially if I am asked to do so. People in the disabled community also advocate and speak very well for themselves – and so sometimes advocacy is all about listening to people who are experts in their own lives – and hearing them when they express what they need from others in order to thrive in society – as opposed to able-bodied persons telling THEM how to “fix” their lives.

I couldn't tell how active you are, but that's the sense I'm getting. I don't know if a man can be one, but I consider myself a feminist too. Admittedly, not a particularly active one, but in the same way that I was saying that I don't believe in nations, I think gender, sex orientation, race, creed, etc., are not reasons for any inequality. 


You and I have talked about how women can and do participate in misogyny and rape culture, and I gave you my opinion for their motivations for doing so. Conversely, many men may find it difficult to stand up against misogyny if they perceive that doing so will lessen their own power – and their esteem – in the eyes of their peers.

But as a man, you have more pull with your peers when you stand up; more pull than a feminist woman would have with misogynist men, anyway, that's for sure. Therefore, it is important for there to be feminists who are men, – just please keep in mind that you can never really know what life is truly like from a woman's perspective – just as I cannot know, as I mentioned, what life is like from the perspective of someone who deals with a set of challenges very different from my own. Sometimes it's not a matter of being “right” or “wrong”; it's a matter of perspective – but people with less privilege's perspective is often ignored, and that's why listening is so important.

Whenever I push back against some misogynistic piece of garbage that shows up on my FB feed, or confront a person in real life for using the word “retarded” in a derogatory way, or teach my children that they have rights AND responsibilities to respect their fellow human beings, whenever I have the emotional, intellectual, and psychological resources to not only push back, but to withstand even MORE pushback to MY pushback – that is when I am “active”. You don't have to be a woman, or a person of color, or a person with a disability – to do these things in your everyday life: you just have to have the best interests of all human beings in your heart – and you do your best, whatever and whenever you are able.

I can't see how anyone can ask for anything more, of themselves, or each other – or, for that matter.... anything less.

All that said, I've noticed activists, whether they're feminists or for social justice or whatever, who become aggressive in their approach, so much so that it looks as if they hate those who they consider to be privileged (usually men, and in particular, white). I hope that made sense, my English is far from great :)
 

Peaceful protests happen all the time.....but you don't hear about them until things start getting really ugly and violent. For example, people marched peacefully in Ferguson (USA) for quite some time, but the news crews didn't show up until they could get themselves some great footage of the black community's emotions beginning to boil over.

And why would that be, do you suppose? Could it be that news outlets have been directed (by a handful of white dudes who own 4 or 5 corporations which own most if not all U.S. media) to capture only the narrative of the “angry black person”, as a way of reinforcing white people's perception of black people as inherently violent – and therefore easily dismissed (again)? I'd like to perhaps direct you in a PM to a website I visit that deals with these kinds of issues and many others; it's made me re-think how media presents and packages “reality”. I also consider it to be the gold-standard of websites; its contributors are incredibly articulate. They inspire me to expect more of myself.

Now, I was saying that because I think they're hurting their own causes, even if they don't realize it. Have you noticed what I'm describing or am I way off?


I've cetainly noticed, and like I said, I used to be easily turned off by anger. But do you know what? Once I worked very hard to get past my own personal feelings (and stopped prioritizing my own comfort) – once I pushed past all of that....I really began to hear what people have been trying to tell me for years and years. It's like stepping through the looking glass, as it were. (Do they have that cultural reference in Greece? If not, google it.)

And, if you don't mind me asking, what do you think should be done, what should be the steps if we are to achieve equality? 


The first step begins with yourself.

*OK, that ended up way longer than expected, sorry! 


Ditto!


**Have an A1 day**

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You answered properly alright! OK, let's take it one at a time.

I think one of the reasons we fail to be proper stewards of the earth is because we are entrained to care only for “our” corner of it...

Sure, perhaps it's the human condition that we can't help but identify with what's "close" to us, especially during the formative years of childhood. But, in the end it's up to everyone to take the leap and see beyond their "corner". In school they teach us otherwise, they cultivate a sense of pride for one's nation, and it takes effort to shake it off. And it can be harmful too. Greeks and Turks for example learn different versions of history, of all the conflict between our nations, making the "others" look bad. So, a lot of people grow up hating each other even today, for no real reason.

...do you think it would be good, if not great, if Alexander could come back to life?

No, not at all. He was a conqueror and I don't have an imperialistic bone in my body. I think we just need people who don't care about getting elected, but who want to offer and can inspire. We have a notoriously corrupt system, so we need honest people to make bold changes... so, basically we need a miracle :)

I remember seeing what looked like a bar patio, filled with people, all of them talking with each other, and the big-screen patio TV showing the election candidates; this happened in Kelli as well, and I said, y'all don't have sports bars here – you have “election bars”...

Haha, well I suppose it was the circumstances. Normally they show soccer (that's what's popular here). But these years have been rough on everyone, so they're bound to care and talk about it. Side note: I'm not sure where Kelli is. Thessaloniki is great though, I love coastal cities.

*Moving on. You make a lot of good points and yes, listening is the key. But listening requires caring and from my experience, governments don't care as much as they should, and the people are from insensitive to bigoted. Not so towards women where I live, but definitely towards minorities.

I remember being in a hospital once and there's was an African who only spoke let's say not so fluent English. He was standing there unable to communicate, the nurses didn't even speak English (!) and some other patients were being their delightful, racist selves. All it took was for me to translate for him a couple of directions the nurses gave me and that was it. Such a simple situation, but it becomes a whole fuss, with people yelling because they're bigots and xenophobes. That happens all the time and even the doctors are racists, which is just sad.

you just have to have the best interests of all human beings in your heart – and you do your best, whatever and whenever you are able

The meaning of life is one of the great questions, but I like your approach and I bet you make a great mother :) Another side note: As I was reading what you wrote, I just had the thought of suggesting for you and your kids to watch "Inside Out" (if you haven't already). If they're not too young, it's a great movie and I think they can get a lot from it.

Peaceful protests happen all the time.....but you don't hear about them until things start getting really ugly and violent

Sadly the media is like that everywhere, influencing public opinion according to their agendas. The thing that should be unbiased and honest, is among the most untrustworthy institutions.

Once I worked very hard to get past my own personal feelings (and stopped prioritizing my own comfort) – once I pushed past all of that....I really began to hear what people have been trying to tell me for years and years. It's like stepping through the looking glass, as it were. (Do they have that cultural reference in Greece? If not, google it.)

(We don't have it, but Alice is famous everywhere!). No, you're right, but what I meant by "hurting their own cause" is not so much that they alienate "us", but that they lose focus of what they're really fighting for.

If you end up hating those you see as privileged or opposed to you, you can't ever make peace with them. You're bound to resent and see them as enemies, even if people from that "enemy territory" want to help you. So with that mentality a) nothing can be achieved and b) one is bound to live a miserable, hateful life.

If I'm saying anything here is that's it's a shame, that's all. But you're right, if one is constantly facing rejection, indifference, bigotry, one is most likely going to react accordingly. We can't all be like Gandhi or that wonderful girl Malala.

"Go. Sleep badly. Any questions, hesitate to call"

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....and many people in the US are working quite vigorously towards a theocracy. :(

EDIT: As long as it's, *ahem*...a Christian one...

**Have an A1 day**

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Kuaoto and George said:

"And don't pretend that pro-life people are the only ones who force their beliefs on others. Liberals/Democrats do it all the time too."


There are conservatives who are pro-choice, and liberals who are anti-choice.

Nice try at monolithizing as a deflection/segue though. This is about individual choice, as in making choices as an individual - something that many (but not all) in the anti-choice group struggle with, and fail.

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There are conservatives who are pro-choice, and liberals who are anti-choice.


Tell me about it. I'm from Texas (yes, the state that unfortunately forced those anti-abortion restrictions on us, despite Wendy Davis's heroic 11-hour stance; dictatorial bastards 😠) and we have a state senator who's Democrat but is virulently anti-abortion. I once wrote him asking him to fight against some piece of anti-abortion legislation. Know what I got in a letter from him? He said that he couldn't vote against it since he was representing an area that was--and still is--overwhelmingly Catholic (hence, anti-abortion). I tore up that letter, threw it in the trash, and decided that he would NEVER get my vote. One piece of legislation that he wanted to propose included actually making women considering abortion take a class before they could even get one! Can you believe that? Another time, I saw a newspaper picture of him smiling and shaking hands with our governor; they were working together on anti-abortion legislation, the H.B. 5 bill you mentioned. Looking at that photo, to me, it was like he was shaking hands with the devil.

He wants to respect the rights of people who have babies--people who can't even afford to have or raise them, as this is a high-poverty area--but won't even respect my right to freely choose not to bear. That's disgusting. Like I said, he will never get my vote as long as I can exercise the right to do so.

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Thanks for your reply, v.

I wouldn't call them "devils", because for me personally, that plays back into the Catholic narratives of "good" and "evil" when using their own myths and symbols.

What they are doing is violence upon women's bodies when they force them to undergo what for some can be a traumatic and potentially physically dangerous process of pregnancy and delivery.

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as long as it is attached to the woman's body it is an issue of woman's autonomy. some choose to view it as life, some don't. it is all in the hands of the woman involved. i find it baffling why some people think they can choose or make a decision or have an opinion about something that will never directly pertain to them (men).

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Look at nations not in "western culture " who no not permit or encourage feminism. Abortion. Homosexuality. Lesbian . And tell me is their fertility rate 1.3 also ?

Empires die from suicide.

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A fetus is not a baby. It is not even a life, as one could call it. It couldn't survive outside the mother's womb, it is basically a parasite that feeds off the mother.

The "pro-misery" activists who deny women's rights obviously think that terminating a cluster of cells is murder. LoL

~ I'm a 21st century man and I don't wanna be here.

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It's funny that it seems most of these pro-lifers don't end up adopting since many of them feel that is the most viable option for all parties involved. It seems like an empty gesture if they don't actually follow through and continue fighting for the child once it's born.

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