MovieChat Forums > Obvious Child (2014) Discussion > Jenny, I just find it more complicated t...

Jenny, I just find it more complicated than this.

posted 8 years ago by Karlacev
4 replies | jump to latest

There are a lot of people like Donna and it's right that their story is told too so in that respect it's a valuable film. I just couldn't connect with the characters. Films are good at making you feel things but less good at making you 'un-feel' what you already feel. This film left me feeling that it had been aiming to say something like 'let's tackle the stigma of abortion' but ended up saying 'there should be no ambivalent feelings about abortion'. Others have pointed out that the final scene and their flippant attitude ended up trivialising abortion and I agree with that. I also think that it's just dishonest to pretend there is no ambivalence about abortion. Of course there is!

I have been an active feminist and liberal since my teens. I am also an atheist but that doesn't mean I have no interest in spirituality. I think I tick enough of the boxes to be fairly stereotypical but not all of them. I really don't like labels like feminist, liberal, conservative etc because you end up having a list of things thrust in your face that you HAVE to believe in. If you believe in gun control you can't be a conservative, if you think immigration needs to be controlled you can't be a liberal etc etc. Is life ever really like that though? Is there a religion, a philosophy or a political movement that you can embrace 100% without a shadow of a reservation about any of it? Not in my world.

I believe in free abortion on demand for all the typical reasons. It's inhuman to make a woman go through with a pregnancy that she desperately doesn't want. Also it's not up to politicians to instruct women what to do with their bodies. Yet I do have reservations. In order to be completely unambivalent about abortion you need to accept unambiguously that a human embryo/foetus is utterly and completely worthless. I have really tried and I can't. I am not comfortable with the idea that the value and importance of anything begins and ends with what it is physically. So the idea that it's very small and weird looking plays no part for me in how valuable it is. I have never really talked openly about it because I'm afraid to. Afraid I'll be misunderstood by other women on my side of the political divide and afraid pro-lifers will use my words as a weapon!

So what are my reservations? Please don't ridicule me. These are just my feelings and I'm not trying to persuade anyone or inflict my beliefs by law.

I've already mentioned that:

- I don't believe the value and importance of anything begins and ends with what it is physically.So I don't really care how many cells it is. Anyway, it's only a 'bunch of cells' for a very short time. By six weeks it has a head, growing limbs and a beating heart.
- In our entire solar system so far organic life has only been found on our planet. Organic life is an unbelievable 'miracle'.
- Genetically the 'baby' is unique in the history of humanity. It may look weird but no embryo has ever been that one or ever will be again till the end of time. It's its one and only chance to exist. Ever.
- It feels dishonest to me to talk about killing bacteria but avoid the K word when talking about abortion. I've even seen the phrase 'procure foetal demise' in literature about late abortions. If you're going to kill something at least be honest.
- 'It is my body' is now a mantra but when I was pregnant one of the things that hit me most was that the baby (you can call it baby when you love it) was NOT my body. It was in my body but it wasn't me. A simple DNA test will show it's a very close relative but not actually you.
- I think parents sacrificing themselves for their children feels more natural than the other way round.
- The idea that you can abort it because and whilst it can't live without you goes against my grain. It feels like sending a starving person away from your table when you have the only table.
- I just can't separate what the embryo is now from what it's going to be. I have to see it as part of a life story. It's going to be a baby, a child, an adolescent and an adult and live a life story. When you abort it you take the decision to cancel that life story. That is the whole point of abortion. Destroying the embryo is the act of abortion. The point of abortion is to cancel its life story so it doesn't impinge on your own.
- I couldn't use it's lack of concious awareness to make me feel better about aborting it. I would know. I know we turn off life support machines when people are brain dead but that's when there is no hope of future awareness. With an embryo, its future awareness is what you want to prevent.
- I don't feel comfortable with the strong destroying the weak.
- I don't accept that every aborted baby was destined to become unloved, delinquent, insane, murderous or so unhappy that every day of their lives they would curse the day they were born.

Jenny, (and Chris) if you do actually read this I was thinking imagine you and Chris were sitting looking at a mountain and Chris says a Chris-like thing like 'wow, that's awesome in the true meaning of the word. We're so lucky to be able to look at it and appreciate it.' Then someone says 'get real, Chris. It's just a big lump of rock. It's nothing special'. He'd probably think well, technically you're right but if that's all you see you're missing something. Then you look a rainbow and talk about how beautiful it is and someone says it's just simple light refraction don't be so sentimental. You might think well, technically you're right but if that's all you see then you're missing something. With an embryo it's the other way round. I'm the one saying 'wow, it's one of the most truly awesome things imaginable' and you're saying 'get real Katrina, it's just a bunch of cells'. I'm thinking well technically you're right but is that really ALL you see?

So why am I pro-choice? Because my beliefs are my own and nobody else's. Imposing your beliefs on others is sinister. Every abortion has it's own story and only the people involved really know it. My beliefs won't pay any bills. The right thing to do is not always the best thing to do. Or vice versa.

Don't reject me as a feminist. I would never say any of the above things to anyone to talk them out of an abortion. It's none of my business. Just be aware and accept that not everyone thinks it's just a bunch of cells and it's totally not a big deal. I will support your right to have an abortion but don't take it for granted that everyone thinks just like you about all aspects of it. So I'll defend your right to have an abortion but if in your language you start to denigrate what that fetus is I will do so with a heavy heart and lose some respect for you. I have read comments on discussion groups by people who genuinely believe the baby is not human till it's breathed air and you should be allowed to 'terminate' it until the umbilical cord is cut. People who've said that even if the fetus is able to feel pain it's OK because you should be allowed to use violence to defend yourself against an unwelcome parasite. When I hear and read those things it makes me feel the kind of discomfort that I believe conservatives should feel when they hear Donald Trump saying some of the awful things he says. Both pro-choice and pro-life have spokespeople who say really extremist things that should be challenged no matter what your political allegiance is. At the end of the day you have to listen to your heart and this is a very personal thing that cuts across the political divide. I have heard a lot of women say in private that they support abortion as a right but would be unlikely to ever have one themselves. I only remember one public figure ever say that, Sarah Silverman http://www.azquotes.com/quote/1396345 People don't want to say anything to make people feel bad if they've had to have an abortion but I would feel happier standing with the pro-choice crowd if more people were willing to say that.

If you see it as just black and white then it's a lot easier for you but for me it's a lot more complicated than that.

[–] zakopane90 8 years ago

Karlacev! What are you doing here!? You are in the wrong place!

A little bird told me you were here and I thought as an old friend I'd come and support you.

I'll have to choose my words carefully because I'm a bloke.

Like you I am pro choice and find the mumblings coming from Trump about restricting access to abortion really worrying.

But like you I find it weird that people can be cut and dry about it. I do have experience of unplanned pregnancies as my now wife then girlfriend and I conceived our first before we were married and before we had any money. We discussed abortion for long enough to acertain that it wasn't for us because we both loved it from the word go. Love has no logic. Even pro-choice activists contradict themselves one minute saying it's not a big deal, it's a piece of goo and then the next saying it's the hardest decision ever anyone has to make and all women take it seriously. One or the other please! Like you I find it uncomfortable when pro-choice make really extreme or hard hearted comments and end up wondering if I'm on the right side. I don't know really, it's tricky. Who would blame a college girl for having an abortion? I wouldn't.

Now I'm going to put the cat among the pigeons. In almost every pro-choice piece of information you come across the fact that one in three women will have an abortion at some time in their life. It was definitely refered to in the interviews for this film and I think was at least part of it's raison d'etre. The thing is - sorry, but I don't actually think it's true!! Let me explain.

It was based on an estimation and a theoretical projection. I repeat, I AM pro-choice but it goes something like this -

If at a certain point in time (a) the abortion rate is (b) then at future point in time (c) the number of women who will have had an abortion will be (d). So (d) was predicted to be 1 in 3.

There were a couple of problems with this. (b) was not necessarily accurate because really accurate data is hard to come by. Different states and countries provide different data. Also even PP says that any given day about 45% of women having an abortion in the USA are not having their first so that must skew the numbers. Nevertheless, let's take it as accurate. For this to work though the abortion rate (b) must say stable and predictable but it didn't. Just recently it's reported that the abortion rate in the developed world has dropped considerably. In some European countries it's dropped by over 20% so (d) can't be actually be accurate. In short, if it was ever true about the one in three it isn't true now.

In a way, it doesn't really matter because frequency has no relation to right or wrong or lying and cheating would be right and self-sacrifice would be wrong. On the other hand if all women are really thinking they have a one in three chance of having an abortion then who is trying to make them so nervous and why? It should be added that the drop in the abortion rate must be down to better birth control, better provision of it, the morning after pill (Donna!!), better sex education and in some countries policies which make keeping the baby a more realistic option. Save PP if you want fewer abortions.

Statistics are a tricky area. I mean even if the 1 in 3 thing were true you could still say the number of women who never have an abortion outnumber those that do by two to one!

In conclusion, your honour I'll say I agree. I'm pro-choice and any woman who wants an abortion should be able to have one and not have other people tell her how to feel about it. However, she also doesn't have the right to dictate to other people how they feel about abortion in general.

As a little PS I thought your list was fascinating because ironically it sounded decidedly liberal, spiritual, tree hugging, lefty yet it was about what bothered you about abortion. Fascinating. I thought our friend with the shield must surely relate to some of these points. Surely! If the left always supports the underdog why does the unborn baby not count? It's even more of an underdog than the woman.

Now, Karlacev let's get back to where we belong!!!!!! Avengers Assemble!

[–] Nat122 8 years ago

Karlacev. This is funny. I actually made an account to address something about pro-choice being poorly named. I sent a series of tweets to Jenny Slate a while back when I was a little mad and I kind of wanted to apologise, put the record straight and explain myself then tweet her a link. Then I got distracted by your post.

When I read what you wrote it was like someone switched a light on and I suddenly thought "I get it now". We are ALL being consistent! I've always been well to the left of center and pro-choice but like you I find it politically easy but spiritually hard to get my heart around it. I am a single mother although to be fair my son's father is beyond wonderful so I am lucky. I have an unhealthy attitude to this movie because most of my friends and both of my parents thought I was insane wanting to keep my baby and I actually came under a lot of pressure. I had a good job working in my field of chemistry and the father was hiking around South America unaware. Two of my friends sat me down and made me watch this movie hoping it would change my mind about having an abortion. It very nearly worked but I just couldn't do it in the end. I felt bullied and unfortunately I unfairly group the makers and cast of this film in that group of bullies, which is completely ridiculous I know. They were just trying to help one group of girls and never imagined I'm sure that they'd be used to beat up on another group of girls or me anyway.

Back to what you said. I realised it really does all hang on those words "utterly worthless". I associate left wing thinking with compassion and selflessness. If you truly believe the "whatever you want to call it" is "utterly worthless" then you can be unambivalent about abortion because your compassion is directed purely to the woman and you're thinking is consistent. If like us you don't believe it's "utterly worthless" then you're torn because you ALSO have compassion for the unborn and a life unlived and please don't say its future is hypothetical because all our futures by their nature are hypothetical. Therefore for us abortion is an emotional and ambivalent thing but our thinking is also consistent. Our compassion for the woman won't let us be anti-abortion but for us it's so much more complicated. Our ambivalence is as in keeping with our left wing thinking as is their lack of it. This movie denies that ambivalence so to us it seems dishonest.

Now you and I are going to be called on to defend our sisters' right to have abortions as Trump is going to attack those rights and we need to defend them. We're going to hear a lot of them saying things we don't agree with. Even some things we don't want to be associated with but we need to stand together. Some of them won't understand what an act of love that is for us! I will keep in mind something else you said. All abortions have their own story and only the people involved know.

I'm sending you a heap of sisterly love and some pictures if you check your personal messages. 

Zakopane90 I know. It was always a projected hypothesis presented as a pretty disturbing fact. The drop in the abortion rate is to be welcomed by everyone but like you I wonder how many will deny this is due to the good work of Planned Parenthood.

I'll leave my other stuff for another day.

[–] Karlacev 8 years ago

@Nat122 

[–] liscarkat (19427) 5 years ago

The movie wasn't about abortion. Abortion was just one incident. It was about a lot more than that.