Getting someone killed, murdering them, that's not really criteria For psychopathy or sociopathy. Check out the actual clinical criteria for these diagnoses.
Lack of remorse, lack of empathy, moderate obsessiveness... That's all I really see from Lou.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/how-spot-sociopath 'In The Mask of Sanity, published in 1941, Cleckley distilled what he believed to be the 16 key behavioral characteristics that defined psychopathy. Most of these factors are still used today to diagnose sociopaths/psychopaths and others with antisocial disorders. (Psychopathy and sociopathy are terms with an intertwined clinical history, and they are now largely used interchangeably.'
Superficial charm and good intelligence - tick
Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking - No, but I think this may be worded incorrectly.
Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations - tick
Unreliability - debatable, but probably not as seen in the film.
Untruthfulness and insincerity - huge tick
Lack of remorse and shame - huge tick
Inadequately motivated antisocial behaviour - tick!
Poor judgment and failure to learn by experience - yes and no?
Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love - tick
General poverty in major affective reactions - tick
Specific loss of insight - huge tick
Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations - Not really from what we saw in the movie.
Fantastic and uninviting behavior with alcohol and sometimes without - debatable
Suicide threats rarely carried out - not that we saw
Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated - tick
Failure to follow any life plan - I suppose not.
Conclusion - Lou scores very highly in the accepted signs of sociopathy/psychopathy - and lack of empathy/guilt is pretty much the defining factor. As you say, being a murderer is not the criteria. He's a sociopath, most people with any knowledge of sociopathy will confirm that, but something tells me you aren't going to accept it for some reason.
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MrHooba
10 years ago
Hey OP, before saying Lou is not a sociopath, you need to know the defintion of the word. Your post is completely unjustified because you don't know what you are talking about. Also, all of Patrick Bateman's murders were inside his head. I guess you missed that as well.
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tenlegdragon
10 years ago
You don't even realise how insignificant it is how real the murders are. Please.
Clever people will recognize and tolerate nothing but cleverness.
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tenlegdragon
10 years ago
Lots of these you're just ticking off based on assumptions and presumptions you've made, and the terms are used interchangeably but they have different meanings. We don't get enough from Lou, we don't see him in a variety of situations, and there's not enough that he does to make some big declaration "this guy is undoubtedly a psychopath or antisocial.
There's a narcissistic component to it, he's not a narcissist. There's and anti-social component to it, and in that he only really loses some points on empathy and remorse, and that's like a moderate lack of empathy.
but something tells me you aren't going to accept it for some reason.
Reason being I have some real life experience with people who would score higher than Lou, and I know what things like "poverty of affect" look like. I have seen people in real life who have killed people who lack remorse and shame.
Have you ever seen a sociopath, real life or fictional start from the bottom and work his way up progressively over the course of months/however long this duration is, building workplace relationships with colleagues, all working up to an inglorious job and steady salary? (aside from Hannibal) How many diagnosed antisocial PD people are up and coming journalists, you figure? Actually concerned about chasing the paper and moving up in the world? And I'm not saying I hang out in a sociopath lounge, and that everyone should hang out with a sociopath to have a proper reference point in case they want to watch a sociopath theme movie, I'm just explaining my disappointment, as responses seem to suggest that disappointment in this portrayal is inconceivable and that me not buying Lou as a major crazy is a sign of my own craziness.
See Gone Girl. No spoilers, but I like it because it's like the opposite of this. The book had maybe the worst synopsis going in, it sounds like a lifetime movie really, zero expectations, but it earned its hype and a nomination even for Pike because it's just accurately researched and portrayed. And it gave more than I asked for.
But I'm curious now, of all the movies about the mentally maladjusted that you've seen, you are telling me that Lou cracks your top ten? Who are you comparing him to exactly that you find Lou and Gyllenhaal's performance so otherworldly?
Clever people will recognize and tolerate nothing but cleverness.
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danavenell
10 years ago
Have you ever seen a sociopath, real life or fictional start from the bottom and work his way up progressively over the course of months/however long this duration is, building workplace relationships with colleagues, all working up to an inglorious job and steady salary? (aside from Hannibal) How many diagnosed antisocial PD people are up and coming journalists, you figure? Actually concerned about chasing the paper and moving up in the world?
I'm bowing out. You have consistently shown you don't know very much about sociopaths/psychology, and this paragraph proves it. There are sociopaths who have risen to the top of many businesses, ran hugely successful companies, are or were very successful traders or bankers - this more than ever is common knowledge. And you hand-waved the checklist away yet it really does show Lou Bloom is a high-scoring sociopath, as about a million other reviewers have independently spotted - easily. You really don't know what you are talking about, and your other arguments have been incoherent to boot. Later toots x
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tenlegdragon
10 years ago
I'm not incoherent. I just know what sociopaths are, and how they differ from psychopaths.
I didn't handwave the checklist away, even though it's not a standard, I hand waved away how you went through the checklist. Because I think you don't have a fundamental concept of how to go through a psychological or psychiatric work up, and I'm not saying that to be condescending or however, but to explain my particular disappointment.
Because I feel you and others believe that my issue with this is that he's not eating someone's liver and frying up some brain and that's not it at all.
Is he a well adjusted community beacon, no. I'm not saying he is. But look at it this way, somebody has a list of movies/tv shows about substance abuse. Ten out of ten they tell you and then one is William h macy in Shameless and the other is like... Idk, the girl from Finding Carter. These 2 shows are on the same list, but you see how Carter is overrated in terms of it's portrayal of substance abuse and doesn't compare to Frank at all?
Does that make sense to you? Do you get this compare and contrast? Can you do that, compare and contrast Lou to anyone? I don't know how to be any clearer because you seem to really be reading what I'm saying as incoherent monkey babble.
But again, what's your experience with sociopaths? To tell me I know nothing, you must have like oodles and oodles of time spent with this right? So what if mass opinion thinks he's the craziest ever. 50 Shades is at the top of the box office right now, for all the opinions of the many are worth anything.
Clever people will recognize and tolerate nothing but cleverness.
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MrHooba
10 years ago
OP, you can say the film is overated. That is your opinion. However, I don't think you know the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath and your arguments are flawed. Sorry.
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tenlegdragon
10 years ago
My argument that I find Lou to be an underwhelming protagonist as far as mentally unwell protagonists go, in comparison to all the other books I've read and movies I've seen with mentally unwell people and even contrasted against regular human drum real life sociopaths who lack the Hollywood frills is flawed?
I don't know the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath? That's it now? First I was a sociopath myself, now I have no clue what I'm talking about. Gotta love IMDB.
Clever people will recognize and tolerate nothing but cleverness.
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