Do you think Lou raped Nina? why or why not? I'm interested in what people who watch the movie think about their relationship.
also if anyone knows if any of the cast or writer/director discuss the relationship between these characters specifically or any discussion on male/female dynamics in this movie please link!
I thought it was pretty clear, they had a "relationship" in which Lou told her what exactly to do in bed, and she would do it. Like a sub/dom thing
shareso is it rape or not to you? and why/why not?
shareActually, during the rant where he's asking for more money, I think he says that he wants her to not do what he asks her to do in the bedroom. This implies that Lou is the submissive one.
shareOn further reading, he might be saying he equivalent of "the final thing I want is for you to do everything I tell you to do in the bedroom". Seems to make more sense. Need to watch the scene again to be sure.
shareNo. He says he wants her to do everything he asks in the bedroom, NOT like the last time - in other words, she didn't do what he said the last time.
shareRAPE: sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will
So, do we know exactly what Nina's thoughts were at the moment she and Lou had intercourse? That would determine if it was "forcibly or under threat". If she was thinking, "What the heck, I'm horny and he's a nice-looking guy, I think I'll enjoy this" then it would be difficult to say it was rape.
..*.. TxMike ..*..
you're not answering the questions though. I don't mean that in a confrontational way, but your post doesn't have much for me to consider or reply to. I'm less interested in your speculation on what Nina's thoughts are than what you think of the character interaction/relationship.
also, it's made clear that she doesn't want a sexual relationship with him, she did so under duress.
My point is we don't know and can't know because they are fictional characters. The story in the movie shows the relationship was forced by Lou. What we can't know is what Nina was feeling when they were alone, the movie doesn't tell us that. It is unlikely but possible that she learned to like Lou in spite of the way it started and willingly had intercourse with him. So we can't really say, with the information we have as viewers, whether it was (fictional) rape or not.
Besides, did the movie make it clear, unequivocal, that they engaged in sex? It has been a few months since I watched it.
And why do you find it to be a persistent issue? Most of us treat fictional stories differently from real stories.
..*.. TxMike ..*..
the director stated that a lot of the narrative content, character backstory, etc is left 'blank' for the audience to fill in. are you uncomfortable or fearful of considering that? that's something that he did say he was going for.
the movie makes it clear that Lou would stop selling footage to Nina if she didn't have a sexual relationship with him.
I am finding myself a bit at a loss for what exactly you are trying to accomplish with this discussion. Are you merely wanting others to agree with you that it was rape?
If that is what you want then be my guest, consider it rape. To me it is moot because it isn't a key point to the overall story of Lou who we know has no morals and will do anything, including threatening Nina, to get what he wants.
Was it rape or not? Who knows? Why would anyone care in this particular story?
..*.. TxMike ..*..
I'm interested what people who saw the movie think about their relationship. when I started thinking about it saw their (so-called) relationship as rape, it shifted my perception completely and I saw it in a whole different way, with much more clarification and understanding imo.
you're clearly uncomfortable and distressed with discussing this so I won't press anything. people really don't seem to want to talk about this in general.
No I'm not at all uncomfortable nor distressed with discussing this. I am just having a tough time focusing in on what you are after. The several times I watched this movie it never crossed my mind that Lou was raping her, it just didn't, but now that we are discussing it ... NO I will not classify it as rape because Nina had the opportunity to turn down his "offer." She didn't because she had job and a money at stake. In essence she sold herself to Lou, she became his prostitute, willingly. That doesn't qualify as rape.
..*.. TxMike ..*..
so as an example, a man approaches a woman and makes it clear he has sexual intentions. in return, she makes it clear that she is rejecting him. he overpowers her physically and forces himself on her. this is obviously rape, right?
example two, a man approaches a woman in the same way, she rejects him in the same way. he threatens her with a gun, knife, etc whatever and says "if you don't say yes to whatever I want to you, I will kill you/maim you/beat you/kill a member of your family/whatever etc". She then says yes, he does whatever he wants to her, and she says yes to everything he does every step of the way. he gave her a choice and she says yes. this is clearly still rape?
example three, same thing, man approaches woman, she rejects him. he doesn't threaten her directly or overtly, but say, threatens to take all her money, her car, her job, kidnap her kid, etc whatever, something of that nature, with the same deal, she has to say yes to him. she does so, consents to everything that he does to her. again he gave her the choice, she could have said no. is this still rape to you?
basically, where do you draw the line? that's what I'm interested in, it's something that I became curious about after watching the movie.
You neglected to give "example four" where a man approaches a woman, she rejects him, he says he will take his business elsewhere if she rejects him, she changes her mind, decides her business is too important to lose him, then willing accepts him as a "lesser of evils." After all at her age she is likely no longer a virgin and has sexual needs herself. That is what happens in this movie and it is not rape because she makes a choice. Unlike your "three" she was not being physically threatened. He was making a business deal. Requiring sex or requiring her to accompany him to dinner, theater, etc are the same thing just in different degrees. People in business make deals all the time.
..*.. TxMike ..*..
as far as I can see your example is not that different from example three. she's forced to comply with his demands because he's threatening to take something she needs away from her, similiarly to ex) 3. she's just doing what he wants because of his implicit threats.
"it is not rape because she makes a choice" the woman in example two and three also make the choice and say yes to everything the man demands, but it's still rape. how does the Lou + Nina thing differ is what I'm asking. seriously, I'm not on a witch hunt I want to know what you think makes that difference.
also very important point you brought up, woman's sexual "needs". sex is not a need, like eating/drinking food/water or breathing air or going number one or two, you don't die without sex. sex is a want. she already rejected him sexually, i.e. she doesn't want to have sex with him, but she still from all appearances complies with his his demands.
Four and Three are quite different. In your Three he is taking away things she already has, in my Four he would be threading to quit giving her things, things she does not yet have.
In truth if any of these happened to real people and it went to trial for rape, a jury would hear evidence and deliver a verdict. You can't write out fictitious scenarios and know for sure. Mindset of the man and the woman at the time of the sexual encounter is also important.
In the fictitious scenario in this movie, if she accused him of rape and I were on the trial jury I'd most likely find "not guilty" based only on what we know from viewing the movie.
..*.. TxMike ..*..
You're confused on several fronts.
First off, sex is a far greater need than any particular job. Nina can always find another job, even if it's lower paying. If she can't, she can go on unemployment, and ultimately welfare. Hell, she's close to retirement age and social security, and has made good money for many years in a high-paid industry. She's not going to starve.
Second, you're missing the fact that in example 3, the person is threatening to take away (criminally steal) stuff that's already hers, and that she needs for some reason. (Although most of those instances wouldn't be rape either.) In this example, Lou is the person who GAVE her those things in the first place. Threatening to take back something you're giving -- actually to simply not give any more - is hardly comparable to threatening to steal something from someone.
You really need to view things more clearly. This is the kind of wacky liberal thinking that leads SJW's to claim that someone is "denying" someone something every time they don't give it to them freely.
[deleted]
I don't think that they had a sex or he would rape her. Nina was supposed a time for him probably.
There's something wrong with Esther.
do you think what he wanted from her wasn't sex? the dialogue in the movie makes it clear to me that's what he's asking for and he won't take no for an answer. since he does continue selling footage to her it's obvious that she complied with that, if not all of his demands.
shareNo he did not rape her, he used his leverage that their station was one of the lowest rated and since he arrived has increased. It's more so prostitution, not rape since it is consensual. He basically gives her the choice to start a "relationship" or he'll deliver his content somewhere else.
sharethis is copy+pasted because I basically have the same response to the other poster.
so as an example, a man approaches a woman and makes it clear he has sexual intentions. in return, she makes it clear that she is rejecting him. he overpowers her physically and forces himself on her. this is obviously rape, right?share
example two, a man approaches a woman in the same way, she rejects him in the same way. he threatens her with a gun, knife, etc whatever and says "if you don't say yes to whatever I want to you, I will kill you/maim you/beat you/kill a member of your family/whatever etc". She then says yes, he does whatever he wants to her, and she says yes to everything he does every step of the way. he gave her a choice and she says yes. this is clearly still rape?
example three, same thing, man approaches woman, she rejects him. he doesn't threaten her directly or overtly, but say, threatens to take all her money, her car, her job, kidnap her kid, etc whatever, something of that nature, with the same deal, she has to say yes to him. she does so, consents to everything that he does to her. again he gave her the choice, she could have said no. is this still rape to you?
basically, where do you draw the line? that's what I'm interested in, it's something that I became curious about after watching the movie.
All of those are rape since they are taking away what she already owns/using physical violence. If someone won't do something for you because you won't have sex with them it isn't rape.
If you applied for your job, became the best there and quit because your manager wouldn't have sex with you that isn't rape, that's just being A dirtbag. There's the line.
Simplified, "hey i'm gonna stop giving you money if we don't start having sex."
shareA husband and wife are together for 10 years, one day she decides she never wants to have sex again. He says he can't stay in this relationship if we can't have sex, so he leaves her. Exact situation, not rape.
shareIn that particular example she could then change her mind to keep her husband, in fact agree to continue with weekly sex. That would ot be rape.
If instead he became angry with her and forced her to have sex then it would be rape. At least on MY jury.
..*.. TxMike...
To anyone else who may read this whole thread, it appears that "drgnndblls88", who started this thread, has disappeared after not getting the answer she wanted. It seems she wanted for viewers to say that Lou demanding a sexual relationship was indeed "rape" but it would not be, she made what amounts to a business deal, give Lou something he wanted and in return he would not take his results to a competitor.
Yes, "drgnndblls88" is female, by her own description an Asian-American woman. You suppose "drgnndblls88" stands for "dragon balls 1988" and she would be 28 years old?
..*.. TxMike ..*..
Just read this whole odd thread. Kudos to TxMike and others for keeping a cool head and explaining how Nina and Lou's relationship was a business deal and not rape.
shareOf course not. He didn't even sexually harass her, as he was not her employer/supervisor, or even a co-worker.
She chose to sleep with him to maintain a preferred business relationship with him, period.
Anyone who confuses this with rape has no idea what real rape is.
If it helps clarify matters, reverse the genders.
On top of all that, it seemed that at the end she had even developed a bit of a Stockholm Syndrome like relationship with him.
share