Discussion: Affairs and acceptability - Love versus Lust - Freier Fall (2013) Discussion

[–] K_C_Forever 9 years ago

Cue Ronfirv...take it away, bro.

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

I am also sure the OP would like your views, KC!

Anyhow, my 2 cents worth - if it were a mere story of lust, I'd have binned the dvd in the first 15 mins.
I was drawn into watching because the 2 leads were so handsome, then stuck with it as I warmed immensely to the Kay character, and also that the story was so realistic, in as much it was all so very credible, minus some very minor points here & there, common to all film.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Yes! All viewpoints are welcome, KC! And others! I have no personal stake in the discussion beyond curiosity.

Ronfirv, that seems, from what I can tell, to be the overarching consensus. The love story makes Freier Fall more interesting, more complex, and like you said, more realistic. The majority of the audience thus far has probably also been drawn in initially by the attractiveness of the characters. But then stayed because the film itself was compelling on many levels.

While the love scenes were incredibly sexy and well done, the scenes that are my favorite, and that I enjoy most, are the ones involving interaction and/or that build upon the relationship. No lie, I could watch the dancing, hospital, and jogging scenes on a loop. The heavy, emotional scenes as well.

What about the marketing as a "gay" film? Does anyone else see it as narrowing what is a more universal story? I believe that sort of identifier unnecessarily separates the film from "other" romantic films. Although, I suppose I'm also still waiting for the day when things like gay, bi, trans are no longer seen as separate from or other than. When it's all just a normal, minor aspect of a character and/or a film. The approach of the film itself does that, I think.

I agree that Freier Fall has done a lot of things well. Ronfirv, you mention that the film/story is "very credible, minus some very minor points here & there". I'm interested in hearing what you thought it did less well?

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

I don't want to start knocking the film on minutiae, OP.

If I may, let me put it this way - when surgeons watch movies on hospital dramas they can knock some theater procedures, when Police watch crime films, they can knock errors on say, investigation or interrogation techniques, when Army Officers watch war dramas, they can knock technical errors,such as guns used, or not used for the period, and so on, or as they say in German, und so weiter.

Let's keep to the positive where we can.

Btw, OP, may I suggest you watch the French gay-themed film,Come Undone. Outstanding acting and very handsome leads. Be advised - you may need two viewings to get to the kernel of the story. One of my favorites, definitely.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

I don't necessarily see valid critiques as a negative as long as they're identifying areas for improvement rather than contributing to a bitchfest. But I understand what you mean regarding not wanting to knock a film, or anything else for that matter, based on minutiae.

Thanks for the suggestion! I've vaguely heard about Presque Rien. It's on my list to check out. There are so few really good films out there. Just in general, not even in the particular genre.

Hopefully I can loose this Freier Fall obsession enough to focus my attention elsewhere then. I don't even know what it is but I'm blaming it all on Kay being too damn attractive.

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

Agree yet again - Kay's personality (as well as him being a looker)is a real draw. What a catch! Loyal, courageous, fun, assured, good career,strong - what's not to like?
I wonder how my parents might have reacted if a guy like Kay had appeared in their home and said he was in love with me? Difficult for me to judge but my old Dad might have fumed and blustered for a while, and although my old mother immediately taken aback, might have asked for time to get to know him, and yet afterwards quietly flattered! Afterwards, Kay would have been told to care for me, and look after me well, or face the wrath of the gods if he ever hurt me in any way. In precis, a very conditional blessing.....in time.
How about you guys?
C'mon KC!

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Seriously! There's nothing not to like! Although I probably couldn't be in the same room with someone Kay's particular brand of attractive. I'm a blathering idiot at the best of times. In that situation I'd be a complete and total moron.

I think an eventual, conditional blessing would be a great thing. I can't say the same of my own family, unfortunately. They'd probably be more like Marc's - You're ruining everything! - Even when there'd be nothing to ruin. Hehe.

Then again, I hope that I'd at least appreciate the man's sentiment, if nothing else.

Somewhat unrelated: I don't know if anyone here keeps up with the Freier Fall 2 Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Free-Fall-2-Freier-Fall-2/1553203491595933, but there's a post about voting, as sort of a precursor to crowdfunding a sequel, if anyone hasn't already done so yet.

IMDB http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2617828

ARD http://www.ardmediathek.de/tv/FilmDebüt-im-Ersten/Freier-Fall-Video-ab-20-Uhr/Das-Erste/Video?documentId=30376142&bcastId=10317610

At this point I'm trying to support the hell out of Freier Fall whenever, wherever, and however I can.

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

You wouldn't be a moron, scifi, that's the last impression I have of you. :)
I would be all over a guy like Kay in a room (as in rash!) and in the process, he'd run a mile in all probability! haha! Usually my failing with new guys, ho hum.

Now, scifi, without please leaving this board, move on to other gay-themed film. EG. Come Undone. (That will really get your grey cells working).

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Thanks for the vote of confidence actually! Good to know my online personality comes across as somewhat suave at least. Even though I'm probably the furthest from in reality most of the time.

Coming on strong? Oh yeah, man. I have that problem too. Doesn't mean I'm at all smooth about it though. ;) The hot ones always get me tongue-tied to the point I don't know what the hell I'm saying. I ramble. Or I start blurting *beep* out better left unsaid.

It's at the top of my list now. I swear. Cerebral films like that, totally my thing. Mindless can be good too sometimes, but only if/when I'm near brain-dead.

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

Blurting out rubbish? You are far from alone.

A hot guy calls me up, my voice goes up a few octaves immediately and I babble more than the proverbial brook. I put the phone down and think what the**** was I chuntering on about and what the **** would the poor guy think he had befriended! hahaha!
C'est la vie, mon ami!

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

How many times have I been there. - What the *beep* was I even saying? He's going to think I'm certifiably insane. - I can also get long-winded through email. No form of communication is safe.

I'd rather be the strong, silent type - like Marc - than the one who's nattering on about god knows what. C'est la vie, is right. Perhaps it's all part of our charm. ;)

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[–] K_C_Forever 9 years ago

I probably couldn't be in the same room with someone Kay's particular brand of attractive. I'm a blathering idiot at the best of times. In that situation I'd be a complete and total moron.

No doubt!! Maybe that is why Marc has so little to say in most scenes with Kay. Although his father pointed out at the dinner table that it's characteristic of Marc's personality to have things drug out of him, still, it could be that Marc was struck by all that was amazing and "other-worldly" about Kay, that he felt at a near loss for words. Better to remain silent and communicate with body language than stick the proverbial foot in his mouth (as he did by his off-guarded 'No' response to Kay's somewhat rhetorical question about packing up, leaving and getting away from it all).

Kay was indeed extremely handsome and all that, but my impression is that Marc was the more classically gorgeous one.

This movie was definitely about love: passionate, heart-breaking, gut-wrenching, all consuming love. NOT lust. I fully concur w/ Ron - back to the bin it would've gone if merely shallow lust was the case. I was initially drawn to this film because of the gorgeous actors on the cover, but I was also sensitive enough to intuit that, by that shot on the cover alone, there was much more to it, something much deeper that merited special attention.

I can't add anything more than what has been so wonderfully illustrated by Scifi, Murph and Ron. Great work guys!

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Marc is the more classically handsome, gorgeous. As compared to Kay who's simply damn fine. Pretty, is the word that comes to mind. Let's just say, I wouldn't kick either (or both!) out of my bed. ;)

I think you're absolutely right. Though protracted silences might be part and parcel of Marc's personality, I took the silences around Kay as the sheer inability to communicate verbally. Which would make sense for someone internally fighting with themselves. Struggling with a sudden, unexpected, uncharacteristic attraction. Like the cigarette scene when Kay teases that Brandt missed him. Marc is priceless there. It's obvious he wants to say something, anything, yet he can't.

Oh man. Marc's "No" to Kay's rhetorical question about running away from it all. My reaction - OMG, dumbass! Wrong answer! And dude, "No" plus googly eyes? You are the king of mixed messages. Does not compute.

I'd been curious if the audience reaction to the film would've been the same if it was about something other than love. The general consensus seems to be that, no, it wouldn't be. And again, you're right. Freier Fall is a love story. A painfully realistic - as in, it hurts so goddamn much - love story. That's what makes it beautiful and poignant. It's also very hopeful, actually, but equally painful nonetheless.

I find it very interesting - what drew any of us to the film in the first place. I knew absolutely nothing. I didn't follow Riemelt from Sense8, which happened the other way around. NaPolA was so long ago I didn't place him with that either. It's the cover! Exactly - it conveys so much with that one gorgeous tableau alone.

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[–] K_C_Forever 9 years ago

Oh yes - Kay is a pretty-boy, for sure!

I knew nothing of this film; came across it on Amazon looking up another film. It was "recommended" for me by trusty Amazon and, while I usually blow past most of their recommendations, for whatever reason, this one stopped me cold. I HAD to get my hands on it. And in my mind, laugh all you critics and naysayers if you must (and probably will), but Freier Fall is a damn near masterpiece, especially for its pigeon-holed genre.

Zero interest over here in Sense8, but previews of Max's other films seem excellent. Most especially Napola, To Life and Amnesia

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

So *beep* pretty! I mean, Riemelt's attractive and all, but... eh. As Kay though? Want!

Yeah, I kept coming right back around to it on Netflix. It was a recommendation too, which I usually ignore. The synopsis didn't even matter all that much. I was sucked in by the cover. Although I have to say I was a tiny bit thrilled when I read it was about two cops. I thought for sure, with that type of storyline, it couldn't rely on gay stereotypes. That sort of *beep* is such a turnoff for me, in general. Too bad it's so rampant.

It being pigeon-holed specifically in the "gay" genre pisses me off to no end. Not that there's anything wrong with the genre, obviously. In the case of Freier Fall though, it's just so much broader and far-reaching than that. Even if same-sex sex isn't a person's thing, it's one of those films that just has to be seen. It's a love story, plain and simple. There's no need to tack on anything else than that.

So, yes, agreed. It is a masterpiece of epic proportions, and all other films pale in comparison. :)

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[–] K_C_Forever 9 years ago

So *beep* pretty! I mean, Riemelt's attractive and all, but... eh. As Kay though? Want!

Yea Max is just ok, appearance-wise, outside of his movies (and most esp. in FF). Maybe it's because I practically see him everyday - his doppelganger works the front desk at my gym. Seriously! LOL! Yea, lucky me.

Hanno, though, good God I'd walk on broken glass for him, if that's what it took.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Lucky you, indeed!

I hear you though. Not my usual type at all. The "cool" kid? Blonde, buzzcut, scruff? Never! Apparently I have an exception to that. I'd be more inclined toward classically handsome myself.

Admittedly, however, my type leans more toward "geek". Usually the guy that people are like - you think they're hot?!

Walk across broken glass? Now that's some serious dedication, man. ;)

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[–] K_C_Forever 9 years ago

Thanks friend. No need to opine - between you, Scifi snd Murph - you're all speaking my language. Loving the discourse and some beautiful & spot on insight. Agree with all.

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[–] murph24 9 years ago

I don't think there's any question about Bettina being the primary victim here, and it would be impossible to sustain any sympathy for Marc or Kay if they'd just been looking for cheap thrills. But that's not the case; this is the story of two guys fated to be the love of each other's lives. And of course, nothing would have happened if Marc had attended a training session in autumn, and Kay the following spring. But that wasn't in the cards.

However, the film keeps viewers invested in the two main characters because neither of them wants to see Bettina hurt. Marc, in his naivete, probably feels he can compartmentalize everything in his life and "have it all." On the other hand, I get the impression Kay feels the situation can be handled amicably, with Marc separating from Bettina but continuing to support her emotionally and financially. But these guys are like twin tornados of testosterone, and when they slam into each other the collateral damage is massive - and much more serious than either of them expected. Marc and Kay end up seriously bruised (both literally and figuratively), but Bettina's the one who really finds her life turned upside down.

What I really like about "Free Fall" is that it ends on a note of resilience and recovery; nobody commits suicide, or gets hit by lightning. And who knows? In two years' time, everyone involved may realize what happened was for the best. But that last image of Marc finding his rhythm ("breathing evenly," as Kay would put it) and outpacing the other runners gives the story a final touch of forward motion, and progress, and moving ahead.

I came across this film by accident and discovered one of the most accomplished but under-the-radar movies of the past five years. This isn't just one of the best films about a same-sex relationship I've seen, it's one of the best films about ANY kind of relationship I've seen.

Helped by the fact it's perfectly cast and very well directed.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

So few have expressed sympathy toward Bettina, although there fortunately hasn't been a lack thereof either. I like what you said about both Marc and Kay. In their own way, trying to keep Bettina from getting hurt. As much as is possible in that sort of situation anyway. That sounds absolutely true to me.

I can see Marc's compartmentalization of his own life as a way to not only "have it all" but to protect it all. Kay questioning if/when Marc's going to tell Bettina because he believes that it could be amicable. There's obviously no animosity toward her on his side. I get the same feeling from Bettina as well, despite how hurt she was.

I also agree with what you said about it ending on a note of resilience and recovery. Often people have been referring to the ending as tragic. I don't see it that way. No one died, for one. Yes, the ending is unfortunate and painful. It's sad insofar as Marc's loss. But I still say it ends on a feeling of hope and possibility, not tragedy.

It is the best film about relationships, hands down, you're right. Which is why I balk at it being considered a "gay" movie because that's a very narrow view of the film. It has far more universal appeal than it's given credit for.

Something I'm curious about, regarding opinions, is the fact that Kay continued to pursue Marc even after he found out about Bettina. I'm sure that's a point that some people find issue with.

Personally, I understand it from Kay's viewpoint. I might express interest in someone, regardless of their status, but it's not up to me to tell a person how to conduct their own life. I make it clear what I want but then put the ball in the other's court. Whether I'm taken up on an offer (of fun, obviously) or not is up to them.

I've seen the "homewrecker" label bandied about though, which bothers me. Is it a guy thing to not see it as a problem? Kind of like how our approach is more direct with each other, comparatively? I have no idea. Maybe I'm just a highly immoral person. ;)

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[–] murph24 9 years ago

Something I'm curious about, regarding opinions, is the fact that Kay continued to pursue Marc even after he found out about Bettina. I'm sure that's a point that some people find issue with...I've seen the "homewrecker" label bandied about though, which bothers me...

I think anyone who says that hasn't watched the movie too closely. After Kay learns about Bettina (at the bowling alley), he switches gears; he acknowledges to Marc that his transfer to the unit was a "$hit idea." He tells Marc they can still go jogging if he wants, but he knows he can't force Marc to do anything. In fact, the only reason they're together on that fateful day in the rain is because Marc decided they SHOULD be. And instead of being the pursuer, Kay waits for Marc to make the first move. Which he does - and in ways I'm not even sure Kay was expecting.

Part of Marc's resentment about Kay showing up in his unit is the knowledge that he simply can't resist Kay. Every time he says he doesn't want anything more to do with Kay, he goes back to him. I think he's absolutely devastated when he goes back that final time, and discovers that Kay has cleared out.

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

Yes, murph, so very right about Marc. He was furious with Kay for one reason - inwardly, he knew he found Kay almost irresistible. He prayed, if only Kay would go away, he could carry on his previous, everyday, ordinary life with Bettina, families and friends.

I was deeply attracted to a guy once and later when he told me he had found a new girlfriend and was getting engaged, it didn't stop me being attracted, or flirting. Guess what, guys? he still enjoyed me being attracted and showing it. In fact, he revelled in it and at times, if we were alone in the office, he'd flirt back! Talk about flirting with danger! But isn't that the nature of the male, especially with one another, as scififan so ably pointed out many posts back?

I have returned to ponder this moot question - what are your feelings about the 'creation' of Kay? based on someone the writers knew of, or an amalgam of 2 or 3 men or just an imaginary gay man, some sort of writers' ideal?

We have all(?)known guys, ships who passed one night, or THE one who got away, through circumstance, have we not? I have, at least twice, and still think of both. If......
Yes, that tiniest of words but with the massive meaning and connotations. Somewhere in the recesses of our minds, don't we all recall a Kay from a chance meeting, a chance sighting, that glance across a crowded room, or aspire to meet one?

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

That's a very interesting concept, Ronfirv - Kay as an "ideal", so to speak. Now that you've said it I can totally see it that way. For one, he is an ideal. How many of us have said that in one way or another? He's everything we'd want and we'd want to be. Or I could just be speaking for myself here.

Beyond that though, it comes across as very deliberate. The film is through Marc's eyes. Kay has to be an ideal for him to put all of his hopes and fantasies into. That's what we do sometimes with people, isn't it. So, Kay being created in the image of the perfect fantasy guy or as an amalgamation of a couple men sounds utterly plausible.

Part of why Freier Fall probably hurts so much is because we've all been there. Had that experience. Not even necessarily "the one that got away", but definitely those "if only" guys. I have a couple of those in my past as well. With whom there was real potential, possibility. It was often a combination of fear, inexperience, cowardice that kept us from pursuing it any further, or at all. Which is exactly what kept Marc from Kay. Only, you don't realize it until too late.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

That's how I saw it as well. That Kay switched his approach entirely from pursuing Marc doggedly to letting him be the one to make the next move. From a storytelling standpoint alone I think that was an important transition to make. We had to see Marc take some action. Otherwise it would all be very one-sided.

Strangely enough, even that turnaround seems to have been missed by some, just based on comments I've seen. As though Marc was a "victim" of Kay, which is utter *beep* He was an active and enthusiastic participant every step of the way.

Marc's resentment being due to his own internal struggle with inexplicable attraction that he had no control over is exactly how I read his animosity toward Kay when he first showed up in his unit. He could resist, cut Kay out when he needed to - not to say it wasn't a total dick move - because he banked on the fact that Kay was always going to be there. Until he wasn't anymore.

Part of Marc's devastation at the end is absolutely that Kay wasn't there to go back to. In addition to realizing how much he royally *beep* thing up. I don't blame Kay one bit for leaving either. But I also know what it's like from Marc's side of things. Trying to exert control over yourself and your own life but, no matter what you do, you just can't stay away from this one person. So you look almost psychotic going back and forth. The self control lasts only so long because you're fighting unnaturally against something inevitable. For whatever reason it feels easier than just giving in.

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[–] K_C_Forever 9 years ago

That Kay switched his approach entirely from pursuing Marc doggedly to letting him be the one to make the next move...We had to see Marc take some action. Otherwise it would all be very one-sided.

Kay had to change his strategy in order to truly win Marc's heart. The victor knows when to pull back the chase and let the "game" come to him.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Exactly. So right on, K_C!

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[–] Spectator88 9 years ago

"Twin tornados of testosterone". I love it - great alliterative metaphor.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Murph's description is perfect, isn't it? So right on.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Some things I was just thinking about...

I found it a bit sad the change we see in Kay from the training to when the relationship turns more serious. There's a certain fun, devil-may-care quality to his personality that is eventually worn down as time goes on. The pressures and disintegration of the relationship weigh heavily on him, clearly.

After their first time in the rain, Kay appears cautiously neutral when they're sitting in the car. Gone is the smug, triumphant expression that he'd had. As if any look or gesture might spook Marc away.

But then he seems to feel more free to be himself once again. To express emotion. Right up through the discotec scene. After that though, we only get one last glimpse of it in the hospital scene. The rest of the time it's back to cautious neutrality, or at least an attempt at it.

However, Kay's emotions could've also been purposely toned down and subdued throughout. So as to highlight Marc's. Because it is, after all, Marc's story.

Alternately, the change in Marc, after he's realized Kay has left, is rather fascinating. On the IMDB board I'd read through the thread about him taking on some of Kay's qualities and emulating him at the end. Partly it's probably because that's the only role model he has for the man he wants to become. But I could also see it as a way for Marc to keep a part of Kay with him.

It's brilliantly conveyed visually through Marc's clothes. Whether it was intentional or not... Kay had been wearing a green t-shirt and worn jeans the night we see them at the discotec together. Perhaps it's not entirely by coincidence that Marc chooses to wear a green t-shirt, nearly the identical color, and worn jeans when he goes out alone.

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

Well observed. Sad, oh yes but true to Life.
I wouldn't say Kay was "neutral" just, as you said, worn down. I remember one relationship I had, which shall we say petered out after several months, my friends saying to me they were pleased it was over as he was changing me, the "old spark" in me had dimmed, but then I came back to Life when the "burden" of trying to keep a failing relationship alive, had lifted.
I wanted it to succeed but our core personalities and Life's aims were just too far apart.

This why I felt for Kay, the weight must have been almost unbearable. Again, scififan, very well observed indeed.

The similarity in t-shirts is worthy of note - cf.BbM and the 2 shirts in Jack's closet and then Ennis taking them home after Jack's death and putting his shirt over Jack's before re-hanging them in his closet. A great scene in a movie.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

"Neutral" isn't quite the word, you're right. Worn down though, definitely.

It's amazing how a person - a relationship, a circumstance - can affect us so much. And sometimes so irrevocably. We never realize until we're out of it on the other side.

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[–] K_C_Forever 9 years ago

After their first time in the rain, Kay appears cautiously neutral when they're sitting in the car. Gone is the smug, triumphant expression that he'd had. As if any look or gesture might spook Marc away.

That's because $hiit just got real!

Moreover, this was Marc's first homosexual experience and most definitely, too, his first infidelity. Kay was being sensitive to what was likely going on in Marc's head and heart and respecting his struggles. He was truthfully reassuring Marc when he considerately said (what they had just done) was beautiful.

Kay knew he had to tread lightly or risk losing Marc entirely to Marc's personal earth-shattering events.

Once Marc came around, basically giving himself over to the inevitable, Kay could be more of his confident self and show Marc more of his heart since Marc was getting more comfortable and it was clear they were truly falling in love with each other. So, who could hold back anymore at that point?

Kay's pulling back/moving forward was always in response to Marc's reaction to the relationship. But Kay was no ones fool, to be sure.

Marc's change was his coming to grips with the fact that Kay was IT. He was the one that Marc was really in love with and now he's gone - just when Marc was finally sorting his heart and life out. Not to state the obvious or anything.

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

Also, much of what you have said is true,KC.
In the early stages of a new relationship the "hunter" must tread with care lest the "prey" bolts in fright! :) So true. These cautious steps where we analyse every phrase before speaking, choosing clothes carefully, places to go, food to choose, are so fraught.
Thinking back, I must have been a nervous wreck! (Worth it when we bag the prize!)

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

It's a wonder any of us survive it! Some of them are so very worth all the trouble though, yeah. ;)

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

What you said is incredibly insightful. It makes absolute sense that Kay would be sensitive out of of consideration for what Marc could be/was going through after the experience.

I agree that not only was it is a first same-sex experience but most likely a first infidelity as well. That's a lot for Marc to deal with at once. Most lovers aren't as considerate as Kay in that sort of situation either.

Both characters went back and forth together. Yeah, it was usually Kay following Marc's lead. Responding to his reactions.

I think the only time we saw Kay pulling back, not necessarily in response to Marc doing so first, was their last scene. When Kay physically rebuffed Marc showing concern for the injuries inflicted by Limpinski. Then it all went to further *beep* from there.

Use of the hood, in that scene and in others, was a great visual of what was going on emotionally inside a character. A physical representation of the inner need for self preservation. The only other time Kay is "hidden" by a hood is initially in the rain scene because he didn't know what to expect.

Marc was often hidden by a hood when we saw him internally conflicted. But just as Kay "uncovered" Marc first in the forest scene, Marc "uncovered" Kay in the rain scene. Rather enthusiastically. ;)

Honestly, not only the breath thing too, there are so many truly inspired touches like that that I think get overlooked. I can't imagine it was all unintentional. It's too well thought out to simply be random happenstance. Strokes of brilliance, seriously.

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[–] K_C_Forever 9 years ago

The use of a hood as a literary device! Outstanding, Scifi! How did I miss that? Excellent insight on this prop and its meaning. So subtle and artistic in its conveyed message. Got to be really observant to catch that one.

I think Kay rebuffed Marc on the balcony in reaction to Marc's half-hearted, feigned attempt at sincere concern for Kay and his well-being. I noticed how he tried to reach for his face in slightly the same way that Kay reached for Marc's face at the hospital; Oh, but with a lot less "heart and soul" behind it.

Kay's perception was right on. He even tested it further by offering him a puff of the joint and was turned down. All of which was followed by Marc "hinting" that he should leave (via transfer) and then further outdoes himself after that insult with returning his key and walking out. Nice, huh.

Kay already knew what time it was.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Observant, or having studied every detail of the film obsessively. Either or. ;) It's genius though, whoever thought up all the various storytelling devices. That person(s) deserves some serious credit for that alone.

Firstly, I want to agree wholeheartedly that Kay saw what was coming a mile away. I don't know if it was necessarily a test because it was obviously sincere, but Kay was definitely putting some gentle pressure on Marc by showing up at the celebration. Not simply with his presence but by not backing down when Marc's parents confronted him. He was utterly unapologetic about openly expressing his feelings for their son.

I'd thought Marc was expressing concern in as demonstrative a way as he was capable of. But I also see how Kay would reject it because it felt more forced, and a bit less sincere just like you said, than the ease with which he reached for Marc in the hospital.

Man, yeah. Kay held it together a lot better than I, or most people, probably would've after Marc hinted he transfer, gave back the key, and walked out without another word. Kay was one insanely patient dude.

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

Kay most emphatically did hold together well -I would have thrown a hissy fit!
Kay's ongoing patience was the one trait in him I found perhaps the least credible, at least given Marc's initial intransigence.

You idea surrounding use of hoods was insightful and like KC, I missed that point entirely. Unless you were reading a tad too deeply? Nonetheless, again, highly observant.

Off-thread scifi, have you watched Behind the Candelabra? Very convincing acting. I'd recommend it, when you have some of FF out of your system!

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Least credible, yeah, but maybe not entirely implausible. Especially when by then Kay seemed to have already accepted it was over before Marc even indicated it was. He was observant and/or experienced that sort of situation before. He appeared the sort of man to keep from overreacting unless he was pushed to it too. Also, I can see that they couldn't have Kay emote overly much in general since the focus was on Marc.

I could be studying the film too deeply, true. Although many easy-to-miss details were executed deliberately. The director and actors discussed and made decisions every step of the way. About things that we as the audience take for granted or don't notice.

For instance, Schüttler purposely chose to wear the green shirt, Marc's that he wears when he goes out at the end, in the scene when Marc comes home after the handjob in the forest. Marc's breathing is used as a literary device by serving as a physical manifestation of his struggle to free himself from the confines of his narrowed life. So, just like I see the areas of rough editing as inferring passage of time, the hood thing seems very intentional because of when and how it happens.

By the way, I watched Presque Rien! Really good film and very poignant. I want to watch it a second time through though before I think too much on it. I saw Behind The Candelabra when it aired and enjoyed it too. Since it's so rare for straight American actors to fully embrace playing a queer role, Douglas and Damon pleasantly surprised me.

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

I guess probably not improbable for a few but being a very impatient guy, find it hard to take on board seeing others so obviously patient! :)
Agree your comments on actors and director - it was, and is very obvious to the viewers a lot of thought, discussion and rehearsals went into the making of this brilliant little movie. The leads' facial expressions were top notch and fitted the dialogue perfectly.
Did you watch the deleted scene between Marc and Kay when Kay sits at Marc's table in the canteen and Marc abruptly storms off? If not I think it is somewhere on the Net. Just study Kay's face - a picture, and again, the mark of an excellent actor.
I agree, Presque Rien needs 2 viewings to get right into the story of these two lovers.
Btw, Douglas & Damon very pleasantly surprised me too. (Couldn't imagine having to kiss MD all the same - yucky).

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

I don't understand impatient people either. Believe me. ;)

After first watching Freier Fall I tried to find absolutely everything I could. Even interviews, though I don't understand remotely enough spoken German. Hence why I want someone to finish transcribing/translating the *beep* commentary!! But I digress...

So, yes, I've seen the deleted scenes. And, yes, perfection! Both of them. So few words are spoken, in the film. In general but between Marc and Kay as well. Yet their facial expressions and body language convey volumes. That might be the aspect that I appreciate the most. Often films with silences like that don't have enough to fill in the spaces between the words. It's usually either the actors or what the directors/editors do with it. Which can leave an audience lost and confused.

Blech. I don't want to kiss Douglas either. But I've been in productions where... yeah. You just do what you have to do.

I don't think non-actors fully understand how easily most of us can separate ourselves from our characters and those of fellow actors. In actions and everything else. The entire atmosphere between actors can look pretty bizarre from the outside too. I completely support the privacy of actors and celebrities overall. Leave them alone and let them live their own lives. However, having said that, we're not exactly normal people either. ;) Our behavior can't necessarily be held to the same standards as those in greater society. For one thing, a lot of lines are naturally blurred that are often more defined out there in the real world. We're an emotional, demonstrative, intense bunch of weirdos. If we're not believable or don't come across realistic, then we're not doing our acting jobs very well. You simply can't have a lot of boundaries or barriers in the way when you need to immerse yourself in a character but still feel like you have the support of others to take it where it needs to go. Due to all that, we can develop very close acting based partnerships. People that we want to, and do, work with again and again. Because we know and trust each other. Non-actors have no idea how important that is to all of our work. The funny thing is, to us it's all normal. We don't get why or how people on the outside can read something into nothing. Honestly, it's why I laugh at all the questions thrown at Koffler and Riemelt, for example. Their personal lives are no one else's business, to start. But would an interviewer ask an actor if they enjoy killing people when they'ved played a serial killer in a film? Or pontificate on if they kill people in real life, or now want to kill people after having played the role, and/or want to specifically kill the people who played the characters they killed in the film? Yet when it involves some form of queer-based sexuality... To me, that's the stuff that's bizarre.

Whoa. Where the hell did all that come from? Anyway...

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[–] K_C_Forever 9 years ago

I could be studying the film too deeply, true. Although many easy-to-miss details were executed deliberately. The director and actors discussed and made decisions every step of the way. About things that we as the audience take for granted or don't notice.

Not over thinking it at all. While they were economical in dialogue, every action, scene and word spoken was scripted deliberately and loaded with meaning, innuendo and/or allusion.

As I stated in a previous post, this film being a near masterpiece, in my estimation, it is thus a work of art and can be carefully considered and contemplated again and again. I take something away from it every time I watch.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

True. Although now, every other movie I watch, even ones that I really like and enjoy, I think - Eh. Freier Fall's better. - I find myself always coming right back to it. There's so much to study and contemplate. It absolutely is a work of art.

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[–] K_C_Forever 9 years ago

What you said is incredibly insightful. It makes absolute sense that Kay would be sensitive out of of consideration for what Marc could be/was going through after the experience.

Thanks! On another note, I also think they are both mind-blown from what heretofore was the best, hottest, most intense sex either one had experienced - physically and emotionally. I think we are lead to believe much more went on than what we were privy to outside the car. Kay showed Marc a whole other way of experiencing sexual satisfaction in a way he's never felt before; and Kay is so sprung for this straight man, he's nearly shocked that it all happened. Notice Kay's look of glory in his face in the rain.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Oh yeah. Much more went on than what happened outside the car. For one, their clothes were dry by the time Marc left. Haha.

Believe me, I noticed the smug expression of unexpected satisfaction on Kay's face. I'd noticed it my first watch because... well, it was a hot look. Who doesn't want a guy they're about to screw to get that sort of look on their face.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

I've been pondering the balcony scenes. All three are important turning points that follow the same pattern.

Kay presents Marc with a question, stares him down expecting an answer, Marc eventually responds non-verbally through an action.

1. Kay offers the key to his apartment, Marc eventually accepts
2. Kay questions when he's going to tell Bettina, Marc doesn't answer and leaves with only "I have to go."
3. Kay asks "What about us?", Marc remains silent before setting down the key and leaving

Freier Fall is a rich, never-ending source of things to notice and think about. You're right - there's always something new to discover every viewing. :)

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

Thanks yet again your mature insight.

Kay asked about Bettina and Marc possibly ending his relationship with her ; how straightforward of Kay, and how insipid of Marc to prevaricate. Also, how honest and it would have been kinder in the long run to have come clean with the young woman much sooner,yet.....true to Life.

Just setting the key down - again and again, true to Life, but at that moment I came to deeply dislike Marc, truly. Kay was no saint but that flippancy with another's feelings of love was just despicable. Am I harsh in judgement? Perhaps, but I think not.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

I don't excuse anyone's actions and, as I said at some point before, that was a real dick move on Marc's part. That being said, I also understand why he did it, on a visceral level.

It all comes down to not wanting to and/or not knowing how to deal with conflict. At least that's my impression of Marc particularly based on his behavior overall. I've done the very same sort thing - avoided the issue - over and over again. As a police officer he's fine with physical conflict, obviously. Conflict that involves actual and personal emotions on the other hand...

Marc's private thoughts and feelings are kept very private. We never see him express them except those times when they can't be held in any longer. Which is only if/when someone catches him in that moment and pries it out of him. Like a reflexive reaction.

For instance, his heartfelt yet vague conversation with Bettina about how trapped he felt. The argument with Kay in Kay's apartment. He was confronted with no escape, that he could see.

Marc reached out but always withdrew because that's what was secure, familiar, comfortable. That's what caused his apparent back and forth - going toward the unknown but then running right back to the known. Fear and discomfort drove his actions.

From what very little we know of Marc's parents, conversation wasn't exactly encouraged. What he wanted didn't really matter either. Can we assume he's an only child? They wanted him to be a cop; he became a cop. They wanted him to start a family; he started a family. On an unconscious level though. None of us can or do act fully consciously all the time. It's just not possible.

I don't see Marc as actively trying to please his parents, or anyone else for that matter. It's on that unconscious level that he's afraid of hurting Bettina as well. Fundamentally, by going against any of them, it would be inviting rejection from those he loves. Which is the worst thing in the world, to him.

The love from his parents is already conditional, as we've seen. So he has to emotionally weigh which is worse - rejection by Bettina and his parents, or rejection by Kay. Again, all on an unconscious level. We know which one Marc chose. But then he realized too late he made the wrong choice.

It's a learned and deeply ingrained pattern. One easily noted just by looking at the few scenes with his parents. They complained, only publicly and in front of others, that Marc says/tells them so little. Yet they never invited his thoughts or opinions otherwise.

Also, look at how his mother handled seeing Marc and Kay kissing. Were it not for Marc saying something first, she would've gone on as though it didn't happen and she didn't see it. She had no intention of discussing the issue. In that case, it was a highly brave and difficult thing for Marc to do to bring it up instead of letting it lie.

His mother never confronted him at any point after either. His parents simply avoided coming to dinner at their part of the house without any sort of excuse or explanation to anyone. The issue continued to be avoided.

When Kay showed up at the celebration, his parents confronted Kay. Despite that nothing in his demeanor or behavior suggested he was going to do or say anything. It was merely his being there that was the problem. Kay's presence, even though Bettina was the one who invited him.

Yet at no point did they confront their son about it first. Or involve him in any way. They didn't approach Marc before approaching Kay. They didn't approach Kay as a family unit, were that Marc's wishes. It was only because Marc stumbled upon what was going on that he even knew. He might've just been told Kay left and nothing else.

Is it any wonder Marc doesn't know how to express feelings or deal with conflict involving emotions on even a basic level?

So while my heart honestly aches for Kay in that scene, I understand Marc's motivations for doing what he did. I can't and won't villainize him for it. Sure, he could've handled it a lot better. But how many of us have done something similar at least once in our lives?

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

Marc's parents were incredibly cold and buttoned up. Thanks to heaven they weren't mine.
As you rightly said, scifi, had Marc not walked in on the scene with Kay at home, I have no doubts he would have been informed Kay had had to leave suddenly. No explanations.
I sometimes reflect how my own late mother might have reacted had she seen me with a boyfriend in a hospital corridor as in the film. My best bet knowing her as we know our mothers, initially shocked and displeased, but she'd have come round for sure. She'd have asked to speak with my partner and no doubt told him he'd better be good to me and look after me well, then both of us would have been accepted. However, no two parents anywhere are alike but Marc's were distant and uncommunicative, hence Marc's difficulty in expressing emotion. Seems to me Kay must have been raised in a more balanced, more loving home background. Yet, with his relentless pursuit of Marc, would I be correct in assuming he was used to getting his way, almost always? An only child perhaps, or a spoilt child?
Again, faults aside, I was drawn to him, mainly by his strength of character.I would have no doubts I'd have felt protected, and my mother for that reason alone would have warmed to him too......eventually.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Mine were narcissistic and judgmental. They could emote all over the place themselves. No one else was allowed thoughts, feelings, or opinions though. Especially not allowed to express any thoughts, feelings, or opinions. So while mine weren't buttoned up and cold in the same way, I think the results are still the same - an adult who is buttoned up and unable to deal with emotion or conflict in any form. There are a lot of reasons I've said I'm more like Marc. Of all the characters in the film, he's the one I "get".

Kay most definitely had to have come from a supportive, nurturing background to be so well-balanced. Well-balanced people fascinate me. I can't even imagine what it must be like. New age *beep* as it sounds, the difference between functional and dysfunctional human beings is that functional people are able to both give and receive love selflessly and unconditionally. Whereas the rest of us have problems with at least one of those. Kay obviously can freely give and receive love.

Kay, spoiled? Not necessarily. I was the opposite of spoiled and I have that very same determination. Only child though? Quite possibly. Or eldest child. Eldest children seem to turn out as stubborn as only children do. It's probably more of an inherent personality trait than anything else. An equally positive and negative trait to have, depending on the situation.

We want what we want and we're going to get it no matter what. If we don't get what we want we'll go to great lengths to get what we want anyway. Nothing can stand in our way. No does not mean no, only maybe. There is no such thing as an unscalable obstacle. It just means we have to try harder and/or find another way. In other words, tenacious as hell. With Kay, Marc didn't stand a chance. ;)

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

Interesting.
I am the opposite to you then, scifi, as don't quite "get" Marc at all. I wanted to shake him!
Your posts, or a few of them, especially relating to his home background (vis a vis parents) have given me new insight into how he was, so thanks for the nudge down that path.

Perhaps if FF2 ever gets made, we might have a deeper knowledge of Kay's earlier years and life with parents, and other family. Still, it's helped to get our imaginations in gear!

Liked your last sentence - poor Marc hadn't a hope,had he? Kay was the proverbial emotional steamroller, but very, very astute, at times subtle in his overtures, and others not subtle at all. I can imagine the directness both unnerved Marc, yet later on, impressed him as the actions of a strong man. Credit to Marc for not running as fast in the opposite direction. Kay, as ever, master of his game.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Believe me, I wanted to shake Marc too. Or knock him upside the head. I might understand where he's coming from, but he could still be damnably frustrating at times.

I'm glad my thoughts about Marc's possible inner-workings have given you new insight though. It's why I like meta-analysis. Especially when it's a really rich source of unending possibilities, like Freier Fall. Picking apart and analyzing characters and stories can be a lot of fun.

I really hope Freier Fall 2 might give us more insight into Kay, but it might not. The creators might want to keep him "mysterious". I also imagine that the viewpoint will still be Marc's so it would depend on far into Kay's life he goes.

There are adept and non-manipulative ways to get one's own way. It's knowing when and how to be apply pressure, and when to go with a less forceful approach. Kay most assuredly was highly skilled at all that. Not to say Kay wouldn't have immediately backed down if Marc was serious about rejecting him.

Directness can unnerve and impress people, no doubt about it. Kay was seriously impressive and unnerving. One of the many things that drew me to the character. At first, Marc literally DID run fast in the opposite direction! Haha.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

I don't know why I'm even thinking of it, but another mark of Kay having probably come from a well-balanced household are his emotional reactions. He got upset and felt hurt, just as anyone would, but it never turned him angry or vindictive. Kay was patient and considerate, as we've said, but not to the point of losing all self respect either. He had rather healthy boundaries and ways of dealing with things.

Sure, Kay nearly caused a car accident trying to get Marc to pull over so he could confront him. Or at least get him to talk to him. Being entirely brushed off with no calls or texts, his own probably ignored, and no other way to contact Marc, I can't really blame him. Kay didn't have many options left in that situation. It's not as though he made a scene at work or went directly to Marc's house, as he could've done and as some lovers would do.

He wasn't looking to make Marc's life a living hell, but he felt he deserved some answers or an explanation, which I would agree with. Because, honestly, that could've gone all sorts of horrible if Kay wanted it to, or was mentally unstable enough.

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

The car confrontation was I believe the one side of Kay I have to disagree with. That was high risk stuff to the point of irresponsibility. I do understand he felt angry and frustrated as Marc was refusing to communicate, and Kay could not confront at work or go round to Marc's home. However, I would have spoken to Marc privately at work only to say he had to speak with him for 5 minutes somewhere. Am sure Kay would have been convincing, in tone and body language.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

Love makes us do crazy things sometimes, doesn't it.

Kay being the more well-balanced individual is yet another trait that sets the character apart from a lot of other queer characters. In Freier Fall, the gay character isn't the *beep* up" one, for once. We all have something and he's very far from perfect, but at least he's relatively stable mentally.

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[–] murph24 9 years ago

On another note, I also think they are both mind-blown from what heretofore was the best, hottest, most intense sex either one had experienced

I don't even think we have to go that far into the movie. Check out the two guys' faces after their first tryst in the woods (at the end of training); they're both literally gobsmacked.

When Kay looks at Marc, his face is full of wonder - like he's Indiana Jones and he's viewing the Ark of the Covenant for the first time. After that moment, it's hardly surprising he arranges for a transfer into Marc's precinct.

As for Marc, the guy looks intoxicated, like he's just had the finest Dom Perignon ever bottled. Kay reaches out to him afterward, but Marc keeps him at bay; you get the feeling he's thinking, "No more, not now; I need to sober up." When Marc drives home that night, you get the sense he's still reeling; he's involved with Bettina, they've got a baby on the way, and he just hooked up with a guy who (from a sensual standpoint) knocked him sideways. He's probably glad he'll never see Kay again, because he knows there's no way he could resist him.

And then Kay shows up in his unit. I have to give credit to Koffler here, because the look on his face when he learns that Kay has just been added to his team is brilliant; he knows his life is never going to be the same again. And Koffler conveys that beautifully.

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[–] scififangeek 9 years ago

There's no denying that they both felt a powerful and unexpected attraction to one another. Kay felt the pull which was why he initially pursued Marc. But that moment in the forest... exactly. It surprised the hell out of even him. Surprised the both of them. Because the draw was something so inexplicable yet undeniable.

And yes, irresistible too. Of course Marc was, on some level, glad he'd never see Kay again. That way he wouldn't be confronted with a very heady temptation. But then Kay showed up in his unit and... yeah. A total "Oh *beep* moment on Koffler's face. We see Marc's emotional turmoil and internal conflict even then.

Koffler and Riemelt are ridiculously talented. There's also so much in Freier Fall to study and contemplate. It's more than a cerebral film. It's a well-crafted piece of art. As K_C said up above here somewhere.

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[–] ronfirv 9 years ago

Like Kay, I can be very determined to get what I want, murph, but to the point of transferring to another Unit to be nearer the guy I was after - that would have been a step I couldn't have taken. So, Kay had one over me there.
Just as well I hadn't been chasing the same guy as Kay or I would have lost!
That was a move where Kay threw caution to the winds.

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