So ... who is there for rey to defeat? - Star Wars: Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker (2019) Discussion

[–] FilmBuff (7436) 7 years ago

For starters, she didn't exactly defeat Kylo Ren. She fought a significantly wounded Kylo, who was trying not to kill her, to a standstill. And, if you've seen previous Star Wars films you realize that training has never really been "a thing." Luke did amazing stuff without training, as did Anakin. You either gots the Force or ya don't.

More importantly-- why must it be about anyone defeating someone or something? Think a little deeper...

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Love how rey defenders magically bring up points about the OT that no-one has mentioned in ~40 years (because they don't exist) in a desperate attempt to generate false equivalence for the bs that is the rey character.

There is no precedence for rey.

Kylo was not severely injured, you see him using his wound to generate strength through pain/rage, he toyed with finn and easily dispatched him and you stated himself that he was in good enough condition to not fight rey seriously. When she said "Oh yeah, ... the .. force?!" and overpowered him he could do nothing however.

Snoke even made a point of this fact in tlj, so it's directly referred to in the film itself.

Love how now that he has been easily defeated, twice, "it doesn't matter"...

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[–] FilmBuff (7436) 7 years ago

I brought it up because it was relevant to what you wrote. For whatever reason, no one took issue with Luke Skywalker going from a whiny farm boy to Jedi Master after a 10 minute conversation with Obi Wan Kenobi, or Anakin as a toddler being able to outmaneuver and outrace seasoned racing professionals. Rey is no different.

Kylo had been shot with Chewbacca's blaster, one that was sending people flying as if struck by a grenade, and blood was seen literally pouring from his wound.

You want to take issue with the films, and with Rey specifically, so you've manufactured reasons to do so, but don't pretend there's anything in any of the 8 films to back up what you write.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

What version of SW have you seen that has Luke become a Jedi master in 10 minutes...?

Is this another Frog account?

I know that rey became more powerful than a Jedi in such time, so naturally you are trying to retcon your own memories in order to convince yourself that rey is not poorly written and all, but that's pathetic.

Lol anakin was SEVERELY criticised and was the rest of TPM. What are you even talking about? Plus there was at least some exposition, which is the entire point of this discussion.

YOU can't accept legitimate criticism of rey's character.

Love how you don't deny it, rather just invent fake memories from past films in order to justify it.

rey is a mary sue, deal with it :).

Also the term mary sue is gender neutral, so no need to be offended :).

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[–] FilmBuff (7436) 7 years ago

Watch Star Wars again. Luke meets Obi Wan, they chat for a few minutes, then race off to rescue Leia. Luke practices a bit as they race to Alderaan, and they are captured immediately after arriving. Then Obi Wan dies. In all he had maybe 20 minutes of training, but it was enough to use the Force to blow up a Death Star.

And, of course, the tired “Rey is a Mary Sue” nonsense. Has that not been disproven a thousand times over?

For starters, what is a Mary Sue? The generally accepted definition of the term is "an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character… They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience."

Does that fit Rey? Not at all.

Rey believes in herself from the start. She exudes confidence. As would be expected from someone who has been fending for herself in a hostile environment since early childhood. It stands to reason that her ability to use the Force, which has been shown since the very first film to be predicated primarily on one’s belief in their ability to use it, would be stronger from the get-go than someone like Luke.

Luke was a whiny, insecure, kid, yet even he became proficient with little training, as mentioned above when he blew up the Death Star. Even his training with Yoda was minimal, and most of what Yoda told him was "believe in yourself."

You seem to be confusing Jedi/Force training with something like learning to play the piano or speaking Russian. In the Star Wars universe, you are either strong with the Force or you aren't, and if you are, your proficiency is based nearly entirely on your belief that you are. As Yoda says, lifting a space ship or lifting a rock are "only different in your mind."

Rey behaves exactly as one would expect someone in her shoes to behave, and her ability with the Force is in complete alignment with everything the previous films have laid out regarding its nature.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Uhuh! You are offended by the term mary sue, how cute.

YOU watch it again, you are deliberately skewing reality in order to fit your narrative.

There is no precedence for rey, no matter how desperately you look.

Luke was already a capable pilot, as mentioned several times in the film. He did no mind trick anyone, or fight anyone with a lightsaber. He was already capable of hitting small targets and even then HAN had to save him AND Obi Wan had to guide him FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE in order for him to succeed.

rey specifically stated that she did not have much experience flying after expertly flying. In tlj it is specifically stated that she had never picked up a lightsaber before she beat kylo ren. She mind-tricked people despite it never being mentioned to her and when they went to rescue her they found that she had already rescued herself. Even when she pressed the wrong button on Hans ship to release the monsters it ended up saving the day.

Are you seriously trying to state that there is no justification for criticism of rey's character?

Your bs about the force and confidence is 100% unfounded. The complete tangent that you have gone off on, the 'hypothetical' assumptions invented in your mind being treated as fact. There is no reason to assume anything other than what is specifically stated in the film.

Get that it fits your false argument and all.

Also Frog beta account confirmed.

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[–] FilmBuff (7436) 7 years ago

What makes you think I'm offended? I had no part in writing the film, and it's not like I'm taking it personally that you're wrong about Rey. I'm kindly explaining your error to you, though I sense you aren't the type to admit when you're wrong.

Rey's character is written in a way that fits perfectly with the existing Star Wars narrative. That you can't see, or admit, is your own business, but don't drone on as if I'm making things up. Nothing I've written is not a factual statement about the films.

Also, you're more or less proving my point by using Luke's minimal flying experience as justification for him mastering the X-Wing without a lesson. What was Rey's skill? Fighting with a staff, which is akin to fighting with a light saber.

Luke Skywalker woke up one day with no knowledge that Jedi or the Force existed, and after perhaps 20 minutes of "training," that was mostly an explanation of what the Force is, he piloted a spaceship and blew up the Death Star before going to bed that same night.

Rey spent a life alone, fending for herself on a hostile, desert planet, fighting with a staff, and being forced to assert herself and be confident in her ability, and was able to use the force to defend herself in a light saber battle against a severely wounded enemy who was intent on capturing, not killing, her.

Also, who is Frog?

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Mental gymnastics on display.

Stating Luke is a capable pilot, CAPABLE pilot - not inexperienced pilot - is why he was capable. He is stated as capable many times. Several people vouch for him. Plus we SEE his ship in the film.

Fighting with a staff is not akin to a lightsaber. Luke was shown with weapons, but he got beaten easily by sand people and never fought anyone with a lightsaber in ANH (he needed training just to beat a ball droid) and then got beaten in ESB ...

rey's character makes no sense. Sure she could fight with a stick (stick = lightsaber = lol) and made a point of not needing finn to hold her hand. No doubt there were lots of junkers on that planet that could fight - none of these junkers beat kylo ren in their first fight. Finn was a professionally trained fighter and he was toyed with by kylo ren and then within inches of being killed, easily.

Get that you are DESPERATE to believe the bs you are writing, but deep down you know that you are guilty of olympic level mental gymnastics here.

You ARE wrong. You (frog) have been called out.

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[–] FilmBuff (7436) 7 years ago

"Mental gymnastics" is you trying to retcon the films to fit what you need them to be to support your dislike for Rey.

The following are straightforward, indisputable facts from the movies:

Luke was a whiny, insecure farmer with no knowledge whatsoever of the Force, and who wanted to be a pilot but whose experience was akin to flying a crop duster. He jumped into an X-Wing and was immediately able to fly as well or better than 29 other career fighter pilots, and was able to use the Force to blow up the Death Star. All of this happened within a matter of hours of his learning that the Force even exists.

Yoda explicitly states that using the Force is about believing you can use the Force.

Why are you not bothered that Luke immediately goes from goober farmboy to Jedi Master in a matter of hours, without training or practice or anything, but triggered when Rey goes from a confident, proficient fighter, skilled in hand-to-hand combat, to being someone able to let the Force flow through her and guide her hand in combat?

If you were being honest, you'd admit that Rey's arc makes a lot more sense than did Luke's. Her character has been developed with far more believability and nuance than Luke's, who was more or less a blank slate for the writers to project a generic hero's journey onto without any real depth or development.

Personally, I enjoy the original 3 films and the new ones, but if pressed to pick the "Mary Sue" from the bunch, someone unbiased and honest would point to Luke Skywalker.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Once again, your 'assumptions' about the OT are completely incorrect and comically self-serving.

TOO FUNNY how you're trying to take my grounded argument and twist it around with deliberate dishonesty and deflection tactics.

You actually have mental issues.

Rebel pilots recommend Luke's piloting skills to their superiors, and his skills are referred to several times in the film. Han makes the remark about crop-dusting, but he doesn't know anything about Luke (he is a moisture farmer ...).

Luke's ship is very similar to the X-Wing.

Luke is NOT the lead pilot, he does not 'immediately fly better than everyone else', he is literally the last option, not the first.

Luke needed saving by Han and was seconds away from being killed

Luke needed BEYOND THE GRAVE help from Obi Wan to hit the shot

Luke takes 3 movies and several stints of training (read: years) to become a Jedi, and even then his skills are no-where near as advanced as rey's were in the minutes after she learned about the force. It's only in the 2nd film that he uses force pull against no opposition from 2 feet. rey does this after MINUTES against kylo ren and wins! Yay!!!

There are 3 years between ANH and ESB and a further year between ESB and ROTJ ...

There are zero minutes between tfa and tlj......

Yoda's teachings only prove that you need the correct physical and mental training even to do simple tasks. I don't recall him saying "just believe in yourself" and then walk away, lesson over, instant jedi ...

rey's arc makes no sense, and you are the only person who cant actually bring yourself to admit it. Why is that? It's no doubt the exact reason why rey is why she is, according to kathleen keenedy's direct quotes that is.

rey is a mary sue, you are a moron.

THE mary sue :D, it's hilarious.

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[–] FilmBuff (7436) 7 years ago

This has become pointless. You're resorting to insulting me rather than offering anything of substance to the discussion. You're free to believe what you want.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Every reply you have posted in this thread is an insult.

rey the mary sue is an insult.

You need professional assistance.

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[–] Keelai (36155) 7 years ago

I find your debate with FilmBuff ironic because I had the same exact debate with the same arguments after The Force Awakens. I defended Rey as not being a Mary Sue, and Luke having some Gary Stu qualities which never bothered me since Lucas made an attempt to give him some explanation for his abilities.

I basically said to wait until the next movie for further explanation for her character.

Rey's abilities could've easily been supported if Rian Johnson hadn't done such a hatchet job. Instead of a nobody, make her a Skywalker or a Force birth like Anakin, show she was trained as a child with a memory wipe.

She became a lot worst in Last Jedi. Swinging a sword for an hour doesn't make a person an expert able to defeat people with decades of training. Where did she learn to swim on her desert planet? Why can she fly and shoot a turret so expertly? Lift boulders so easily? She schools Luke in how to be a Jedi. Really?

I'm eating my words. She's a Mary Sue! And Rian Johnson is a hack.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Yes, it is very disappointing and could have been easily avoided.

rey could have been a much better character, even though I didn't like tfa, there was loads of opportunity, as you pointed out, in tlj to rectify the situation ... but it didn't happen? It is mind boggling how they never even attempted to.

I appreciate your input in this matter.

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[–] dlancer (2036) 7 years ago

Kylo and Rey actually both looked like amateurs when they fought. I think people assumed Kylo was skilled with a lightsaber because he was strong with the force. Lightsaber skill requires training, whereas force ability is unlocked rather than learned. The Force Awakens was the initial unlocking of Rey's force ability. Yes, she has more of the force than Luke does... but so does Kylo. As Luke said, he had seen that kind of power once before, and he ran from it. Kylo had to go somewhere else to get uber awesome lightsaber training, but in the end he couldn't even construct a lightsaber properly.

Everything else about her "Mary Sue" qualities can be explained by the junker planet.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

kylo is not an amateur. This wishful thinking only exists in rey defenders' minds because it helps their argument for rey.

It's classic mental gymnastics and entirely self serving.

"rey beat kylo the first time she picked up a lightsaber" = "kylo is an amateur"
"rey beat kylo the first time she picked up a lightsaber" = "she owns a staff"

Self-serving because in SJW-like debating tactics you are trying to construct a defense from multiple, conflicting sides of the argument.

By extension anyone who owns a staff in the entire galaxy could beat kylo in a lightsaber battle. Well except for first order trained, life-long soldier finn of course ...

A staff is not a lightsaber. Trying to hit drunk thugs is not the same as beating one of the main villains in your first try.

The very next day in tlj we see rey expertly wielding a lightsaber and defeating Luke. Then a day or two later she BEATS Luke AND kylo *again*. Not after charming kylo enough to kill his own master no-doubt.

With zero lessons she lifts all of the rocks and saves everyone. She even senses Luke's suicide better than Leia and looks happy - it's her story now ...

There is no basis for this defense.

NOTHING explains rey's bs abilities. Not even the last-minute, seldom talked about, obvious retcon book that exists because production staff were picking holes in the script left+right+center. Even this can't paper over the amount of cracks in rey's character.

None of the pathetic excuses are plausible, even by a massive stretch (such as the staff = expert lightsaber rhetoric).

Don't ever become a writer, beta dude.....

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[–] Threadkiller (3089) 7 years ago

Also Frog beta account confirmed.

It certainly matches Frog's style of arguing that consists of willfully distorting facts to support an argument and simply ignoring verifiable facts presented in counter arguments. Especially when it comes to defending Rey, using the false "iF Rey is a Mary Sue so is Luke because of reasons I'm just making up" approach.

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[–] Bubbathegut (18242) 7 years ago

Anakin trained with Obi Wan for 10 years in between TPM and AOTC. Luke trained by himself in between ANH and TESB, he also trained briefly with Yoda in TESB. Zero time elapsed between TFA and TLJ. JJ and Rian has still not revealed why Rey is a Master Jedi and a expert pilot. I assume and am hoping it will all be explained in Ep 9. Unless they decide to stretch it out to a 10, 11 and 12.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Plus Luke needed saving by Han and LITERALLY needed help form beyond the grave from Obi Wan to hit a shot that he was some-what comfortable in hitting anyway. Plus he did have SOME training from Obi Wan while they were together and had been exposed to force techniques and philosophies as well.

rey had none, and it was specifically stated that she has had none.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

That is one big pile of bullshit, Rey has not worked half as hard as Anakin and Luke and yet has achieved twice as much.

She's a Mary Sue plain and simple.

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

"Think a little deeper..."

Oh dear oh dear.

Do you honestly think any thought has gone into the creation of Rey?

She is Luke. With a vagina. Who succeeds at everything, first time, with zero effort. Because if she didn't the zealots who keep Salon and the Mary Sue in business would be screeching to the high heavens about misogyny. So, congratulations to them, they've got what the wanted - the most poorly written female lead in a major movie in history. Such progress. Much diversity. Very well done.

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[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

She will resurrect the dead. What else?

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

She'll beat up Harvey Weinstein the Hut.

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

I'm afraid that they won't have her defeat anyone, that they'll have her fall in love with that douche idiot Darth Emo, and redeem him the way Luke redeemed Vader, and they'll fly off into the sunset or rule the galaxy together or some shit.

I'd much rather see them bring in a new villain for her to defeat, because IMHO Darth Emo is unredeemable. He's such a worthless little twerp, and there is nothing in the universe that can make me forgive him for killing my beloved Han Solo!

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[–] Keelai (36155) 7 years ago

I hear that an attraction between them is hinted at in the novelization.

For all of Kathleen Kennedy's feminist girl power rhetoric, doesn't she know how offensive it is to have Rey fall in love with a man who captured and tortured her? A psycho who killed his own father along with billions on multiple planets and has major anger issues?

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Oh, the attraction between them was more than hinted at in TLJ, and I to God it's a red herring because if they decide to redeem that douche and let him live I'm going to be PISSED!!

As for the idiocy of making Rey fall in love with the man who kidnapped and tortured her, well, I suspect that the writers made the mistake of listening to the fan criticism of Rey being too perfect and decided to make her do something really stupid - like thinking she can redeem the man who killed Han Solo. They should know better than to listen to the sort of fans who carp about such things.

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[–] Keelai (36155) 7 years ago

Rian only listens to Kathleen Kennedy since he already made it public that he didn't care about the fans.

I think the romance is an attempt to create more female fans by creating a Twilight Star Wars. Rey and Kylo. Finn and Rose. Or triangle Finn vs Kylo for Rey. Kennedy's other attempt was to have every male character knocked down or schooled by a female character. I really believe she's out of touch with what feminism is and what girls/women want in a film.

I blame Kennedy instead of the writer/director because she's the one who fires directors when they don't do what she wants. Johnson is only her hack lackey.

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

"Rian only listens to Kathleen Kennedy since he already made it public that he didn't care about the fans. "

That's a bit imprecise. He does care about the fans in general, he just doesn't care about the old-school fans who've hated everything new in Star Wars since the first Ewok appeared onscreen, because they hate him and they don't make him any money. Ditto for Kennedy, and really, why SHOULD either of them care about "fans" who make a hobby of hating their work and who don't make them any money?

Seriously, the old-school fans need to stop acting like they own the franchise, and the fandom.

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[–] Keelai (36155) 7 years ago

The old school fans are mainly non-Hispanic white males. There is a demographic shift which will make nonwhites the majority in the U.S. in a few years. That has already started with most children under 9 years old being nonwhites. That's the reason why Disney is trying to grow the female and nonwhite fan base for Star Wars.

I have no problem with their goal. The problem is the poor writing in Last Jedi. Another issue is that Kennedy doesn't know it's possible to maintain the original fan base while expanding. Instead, she believes to attract females it's necessary to bash men and destroy the characters from the original trilogy. Not true.

Merchandise sales for these movies have been dismal and Last Jedi fell short of its box office by $300K. It doesn't seem that Kennedy understands the gender difference related to toy purchases and believes girls will fill in the void when boys stop buying. Did you run out and buy a Rose action figure?

Star Trek was able to expand its fan base to a younger generation a few times while respecting the original characters and fans while it introduced new ones. Lucas did the same for 40 years with his prequels, TV shows, novels, games, merchandise and support of fans.

Newsweek ran an article that addresses the female fans entitled "Star Wars owes its box office success to women"
http://www.newsweek.com/star-wars-last-jedi-female-fans-747611

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

"There is a demographic shift which will make nonwhites the majority in the U.S. in a few years. That has already started with most children under 9 years old being nonwhites."

Perhaps that's the reason the Nerd-Movie Industry has changed its demographic approach so radically in the last few years! Because for decades the conventional wisdom was "The most profitable audience is US-resident white straight males between the ages of 20 and 40, so we need to cater absolutely everything to their tastes", but that's obviously changed. "Black Panther", "Wonder Woman", and two out of three Disney Star Wars films have shown that there diversifying your heroes can make a company billions, so IMHO the days of catering to white male nerds are over.

I just wish the local white male nerds were taking it with better grace.

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[–] Keelai (36155) 7 years ago

Kennedy and her cohorts are calling fans who don't like Last Jedi racists and misogynists. Whether they are or not, only a fool would insult their own customers.

The fans just want a quality film with good writing and visuals while maintaining the original canon. The irony is that they are probably the reason why Lucas sold the company since they were very hostile towards him after he made the prequels. Now the motivation will be money instead of art.

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Only SOME of the old-school fans are racists and misogynists!

And only some are monumentally clueless and obnoxious and devote their lives to hating on anything from the Ewoks onwards, but enough that I can't blame Kennedy, Johnson, or Lucas for telling them off or doing whatever they had to do to get those small-minded creeps out of their lives. Telling them off may save them a few bucks, but it's so deeply satisfying that I can't criticize anyone for doing it.

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

I realise you're a bigot and so witness everything in life through a distorted lens but I'm going to say something to you now that I genuinely believe you'll find quite useful.

Black Panther And Wonder Woman were written by 'white nerds' for the enjoyment of anyone who cared to read them. Star Wars was made by 'white nerds' but enjoyed by young/old, male/female and people of virtually every race on the planet. Most of us - uninfected by the disease of racial bias - are capable of enjoying media irregardless of the racial profile of its creators or its characters and I am willing to bet a huge portion of the audience for BP and WW were the 'local white male nerds' you so clearly hold in contempt.

Stop grouping people together by their skin colour. It is't 'woke', it is racist and even worse, it's incredibly annoying and cringe inducing. Now knock it off.

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

So getting tired of every damn film ever made being made for, by, and about straight white men, and disliking the people who object to any films made starring other kinds of people makes ME a bigot?

Look, straight white men are generally good folks and I like some of them very much, but that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing them monopolize the entertainment industry.

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

"every damn film ever made being made for, by, and about straight white men"

Clearly, this is hyperbolic even when looking at Hollywood alone but when you consider most nations on the planet have happily been making films for the past 100 years it becomes even more ridiculous. This seems to be an attitude that is very common in Anglo Saxon nations - lambaste your fellow countrymen for not being 'diverse' enough whilst simultaneously forgetting any other cultures exist.

"disliking the people who object to any films made starring other kinds of people"

But they're not, are they? The success of BP and WW prove this.

Why do the racists/sexists nerds hate Star Wars/Ghostbusters but like BP/WW? Are they selective with their bigotry? Or is it that they're *not* the ones that give a shit about gender/race?

We have to move past racial politics otherwise we will never be rid of racism. Bigotry can only be beaten through tolerance and empathy, not by responding with the 'right' kind of bigotry.

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

I do hope you've said all these well-intentioned things about bigotry, tolerance, empathy, and reconciliation to the assholes who've been using this forum to attack people or characters who aren't white, straight, or male enough for their taste.

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

There's no need for tolerance, empathy or reconciliation for people who *aren't* arseholes.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

A multi-millionaire would not be capable of understanding the cause of mainstream political movement.

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[–] ghostboy (652) 7 years ago

When the Force Awakens came out, I was not aware of the term Mary Sue, but kept coming across it in relation to Rey. I didn't put much thought into it at the time, but after seeing TLJ, I realised there was no reason for Rey being as powerful in the Force as she was. Her being overpowered is Disney's ignorance to the Star Wars lore and inadvertently they created a Mary Sue character through Rey.

It's funny when you watch Attack of the Clones, Anakin who was literally birthed by the Force is the chosen one (he of all people in Star Wars should be a Mary Sue) instead he gets his ass kicked by Dooku and loses an arm and then both legs to Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith.

Where is episode 9 going? I don't have much interest in what happens, but I think how it will play out is, it's less about Rey defeating Kylo and more about saving Ben.

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[–] sut6432 (2928) 7 years ago

This may not have been a big deal to many people, but there was a small moment in TLJ that I couldn't get past, and it continued the "Rey is a Mary Sue" narrative that I was so annoyed by in The Force Awakens.

Rey knocks Luke down in combat...Luke fucking Skywalker! Unless he was playing the weakling or not trying to hurt her, that never would have happened in a million years! As if they hadn't already ruined Luke's character enough in this movie, now they have "can't do anything wrong" Rey knock him on him ass in a light saber spat. That was so wrong in so many ways. Why did she even have to go find Luke? She could just destroy everyone by herself in 5 minutes. Luke is a Jedi master, and there is no way Rey puts him on his ass like that. I don't care how many SJWs cheered when that happened, that is just epically wrong.

I bet Rey could have taken down Vader and the Emperor with her hands and legs in shackles and blindfolded.

This girl should NOT have gotten the better of Luke Skywalker in a light saber fight, no matter how hard they were fighting. No way. I don't care how many times she easily dominates Darth Emo (Kylo Ren).

Such a shame what they are doing to this franchise with this new trilogy, and it's hilarious how much Disney pays the critics to say it's the best thing ever.

They are entertaining movies, but damn, they are really trashing the mythology, and the fact that we got exactly ZERO scenes together with the original cast over two new movies is sickening. Now fans will never get to see it. I don't give a rats ass about the new characters, so I really don't have much of a desire to see this new movie. I wish I did.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

It is very disappointing indeed.

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

There is no writer in history that could save this disaster of a franchise. Not Hemingway, not William Goldman, not Robert Towne. It is fucked. Beyond all belief.

But the beautiful thing is that JJ doesn't even have to try.

He didn't with Lost, he didn't with Star Trek and he sure as hell isn't going to suddenly develop a concern for story telling now.

All he needs to do is sprinkle as many 'references' as he can to trigger the predictable Pavlovian responses and all will be forgiven. An x-wing here. A tie fighter there. Fuck, he might actually even throw in an Ewok or two. The story won't make sense because it was *never* about the story. Coherent story telling is passe anyway, why not just let the audience tell a story in their own heads, make them 'think deeper'. And besides, who even needs a story when you can just blow things up?

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Just to add my 2 pence.

Regarding Rey vs Kylo.

So we say Kylo was injured. Fine.
So we say the force awakened in Rey. Fine.
So we find out that Rey is Palpatine's/Kenobi's/Luke's child. Fine.

It's a fictional story so there are an infinite number of ways we can justify how/why she beat Ren on her first go. But that's not really the issue. The issue is what Ren's failure does to the rest of the story (remembering that this is meant to be a trilogy). No matter how you slice it/dice it the story of "weakened/weak villain losing to the super competent hero in their first battle" is infinitely less satisfying than that of "Hero goes on long painful journey to learn the skills they need to finally vanquish the seemingly unbeatable villain". It's not impossible to tell a story like this and it would be a lot more original that the more cliched 'Hero's journey' but I don't believe for a minute JJ/RJ have tried to tell this, or indeed, any story. The whole thing is a series of retcons, board room decisions, fake outs and bluffs. It's a con job and as many people know - it's easier to fool someone than to convince them they're being fooled.

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