MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > *small rant, turned into thoughts on the...

small rant, turned into thoughts on the whole 'Star Wars' mess. Feel free to ignore, read, or discuss

posted 6 years ago by MichaelPacino (179)
61 replies | jump to latest

i’m not just talking to the people who attack “The Last Jedi”, claiming it ruined their childhood, i’m talking to everyone… when did ‘Star Wars’ talk become so distasteful, horrid, and painful to listen too?

“When Disney bought ‘Star Wars’ and Jar Jar Abrams, Ruin Johnson, and Feminazi Kathleen Kennedy started running the show-”

Oh shut up. No really, just stop… I’ve heard it all a million times before.

“Star Wars is still amazing, and y’all are just haters who hate anything new. You drove Lucas to sell his company, and made Christensen quit acting, and-”

You can shut up too. I’ve heard that all enough.

Look, I adore ‘Star Wars’, really I do, It’s the reason I decided to start acting, writing, and directing. The movies, shows, and books were a huge part of my childhood. I love all things ‘Star Wars’, and I know many of you were impacted in one way or another by the movies as well, which has been okay for the most part, but now people have made the conscious decision to go on a full blown attack on the new material like it’s the next Adolf Hitler.

“Johnson ruined my childhood!!”

You probably never grew up, or had a childhood to begin with if it took one movie to completely send you into a flying fit of rage (which can only lead to the darkside)

“You should be grateful Disney is making y’all anything at all and-”

Stopping you there real quick. Disney’s end goal is to make money, and turn a profit. Don’t believe me? Then what were the point of the porgs? At least the ewoks actually contributed to the plot of “Return Of The Jedi”.

Now look we can all start pointing fingers, getting angry, and go into an all out war, but what’s the end goal? Not allow the new movies to be in your mind as actually canon? Okay go ahead, you can believe that, and continue on with your life, it’s not that hard…

You like the new movies, and enjoy what you’ve seen? Congratulations, go enjoy the movies, and enjoy what you’ve seen.

Maybe you two don’t have to fight, and can just let bygones be bygones?

*continued fighting*

Ugh… Alright why are you taking the time to attack the new ‘Star Wars’ material?

“Because they’re ruining it and-”

Will that really hurt you if they’re not good?

“YES! They hurt the story i love, the movies i love, the-”

Will they mentally and physically hurt you if they keep getting released?

“Well no but-”

Uh-uh. If it’s not hurting you, or anyone else, there's no reason to attack people who are just doing their job to entertain, and you may not agree with how they’re doing their job but they’ve gotten to their status through their hard work, and dedication to what they do.

“Well actually Kennedy got to her position by sucking up to-”

Source?

“Huh?”

Where’s your third party unbiased source that tells you this claim is 100% true?

“It should be right there!”

Well I have yet to see either of you two actually use a source yet that wasn’t heavily biased. There are legitimate issues out there which deserve your attention, and no one is really making you two fight each other.

“Disney forced me to fight back against the-”

They put a gun to your head, and forced you to go on a quest to fight back against them?

“No I made the choice to fight!”

For a sci-fi movie series…

“It’s more than just movies!”

Yes, I agree, but you have a choice on how the movies will affect you. Why let the negative stuff impact you in any way? Why not just say you feel you don’t have to watch the movies anymore, but let those who had fun just enjoy their fun? It seems silly to get all up in arms over this. I saw there's a campaign for people to remake ‘The Last Jedi’, and have gained almost $200 million dollars because of it. Congrats, but why not put that time, energy, and passion into making something completely brand new, and the next groundbreaking movie, rather than remake what’s already happened. Disney’s doing the same thing, and by doing this, you’re no better than Disney with these actions.

Look, i’m not saying everyone who hated “The Last Jedi” is a psycho going crazy, in fact, I’ve had very amazing, and civil conversations with people who didn’t care for the movie, and brought up some genuine good points that I agree with, and at the same time talked with people who liked the movie, and brought up some good points too. I think we all just need to take a deep breath, get a glass of water, and relax. If Episode 9 fails, Okay, then Disney needs to re look at some stuff, but by the same token, I think some of the standards put onto Episode 8 were way bigger than anyone could imagine. Yes I know Johnson purposefully didn’t go with fan theories, but that was because he had a, in my opinion, a cool idea to completely throw any of that out, and change what we thought was coming. Some loved it, some hated it, and that’s okay, as long as we’re not sending death threats to directors. (I know Johnson’s getting more snarky on Twitter, but if you received death threats, you’d get a bit uptight too i guess)

[–] Keelai (34855) 6 years ago

"Disney’s end goal is to make money, and turn a profit."

Noting wrong with making some money, but Disney used to be very creative and pushed the boundary re: art. I think Lucas believed he sold his company to "creative" Disney not realizing they had morphed into mediocrity a longtime ago.

"“Well actually Kennedy got to her position by sucking up to-”
Source?"

Two sources. Her own website. What successful and creative movie has she made without Spielberg, Lucas or some other highly talented person involved? Film-making is collaborative so it's easy to hide behind another person's efforts.
http://kennedymarshall.com/

I find this video disturbing because she is clearly saying whatever she believes Lucas wants to hear. That's sucking up. She's very good at it so she probably had plenty of practice.
As you know, she ditched Lucas, his EU, and the SW legacy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5TGJquhP1s

"Johnson purposefully didn’t go with fan theories,"

I have no problem with originality. I do have a problem with an incoherent script. Johnson is clearly not a writer. Disney should realize before anything, a great script is needed. Unfortunately, Disney (and other studios) appears to believe that the SW brand and/or the SFX is more important.

I'm on the fence about seeing Episode 9. I hated Last Jedi (and Solo), but Abrams is a bit more talented than Johnson and without spoiling anything, I believe he may introduce a story element that is reminiscent of something that Lucas would do which is promising to me.

My problem with Disney SW is that they have played things way too safe, tossed the EU, repeatedly used story and characters from the OT, and hire people who seem unfamiliar with SW and have little talent.

In the meantime, thank the Maker for "Game of Thrones" which never disappoints.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

"Johnson purposefully didn’t go with fan theories,"

I have no problem with originality. I do have a problem with an incoherent script. Johnson is clearly not a writer. Disney should realize before anything, a great script is needed..

It's quite revealing when someone responds to the question of the fans relationship with their theories by talking about coherency and great scripts. It shows that they've already settled on their theories as how a coherent story and a great script ought to go and determined the coherence of TLJ on the basis of it not matching their theories.

No surprise that people are upset at all these trees obscuring their view of the wood.

Rian Johnson is multiple award winning writer. To state that he's clearly not a writer is absurd.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Oh yes a writer...just a very generic one!

[–] Keelai (34855) 6 years ago

[deleted]

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Wait til the third👍

[–] Keelai (34855) 6 years ago

👍

[–] Keelai (34855) 6 years ago

"...determined the coherence of TLJ on the basis of it not matching their theories."

I had no theories so don't believe the propaganda that everyone criticizing the movie had them. I actually like to see a movie spoiler-free and prefer to be surprised with something unexpected and different. But, I know the difference between a good script and a poor one. The seventh sequel still needs to be coherent re: the seven movies and the overall SW legacy that came before it. He can't suddenly make up things that contradict 40 years of story-telling.

BTW, I'm reading the second Game of Thrones novel. That's well written.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

"I had no theories so don't believe the propaganda that everyone criticizing the movie had them. "

Ah. That old strawman. I absolutely agree that not everyone with negative criticism had a head canon that backfired while watching TLJ. Nobody ever says that they do.

So pardon me while I ignore the false propaganda that people dismiss negative criticism on that basis.

It just so happens that a big proportion of fans claiming to be unhappy with the "writing" have an alternate storyline that, obviously, would have been better.

Just stating it's incoherent for a seventh episode and contradicts forty year old things isn't going to impress me. Telling me you're reading GOT isn't going to impress me either.

[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

Apparently, expecting a good movie is a fan theory now.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

If you're pre-judging what a good movie is based on preconceived fan theories then you are just asking for trouble.

[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

Literally no one is doing that.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haa hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.

Good one.

[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

They're not. People are bringing up flaws in the story that have nothing to do with preconceived theories. You refuse to address anyone's point and then just keep strawmaning. I have yet to see you actually make an attempt at a counterpoint.

The movie is shit and it has nothing to do with fan anticipation. You can remove this from the Star Wars franchise and hold it up as its own movie and the flaws would still be there The motivations for Holdo and Rose are illogical. The central message of the film is contradicted multiple times. The tone is uneven. There is a lot that doesn't work.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

Some people (including me) did have preconceived notions. Some of those people are confused, saddened or pissed off that they're notions weren't upheld. Since I'm not attributing that to everyone who is dissatisfied, it's not a strawman.

If people brought up perceived flaws to me that were nothing to do with what they thought would/should have happened then I wouldn't mention their supposed preconceptions. But the very seldom

As per usual , I'm just being told there are perceived flaws. But not how they should be perceived flaws. The supposed point is always being or has been expressed by another person at another place and time. And when I dismiss people for just imposing their head canon on me and on the film, I get accused of dismissing ALL negative opinions. As if I could.

How is Holdo's motivation illogical?

How is Rose's motivation illogical?

My "counterpoint" to the so-called points in your post would be Holdo's and Rose's motivation was logical. The tone is not uneven. Oh and there's a lot that works.

See how that works?

[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

I remember reading some good points in this thread but it seems they were deleted. Still, I don't think you properly addressed Keelai's points above and you fell back into him having "fan theories" even after he said he didn't. But as per your request, I'll address your questions.

Holdo's motivation is illogical because she purposefully acts as an antagonist to Poe. Johnson brings up the possibility of a mole in the Resistance right before introducing her, so I get it that she was a red herring. That's fine and it's been done in other works. Usually, the other works will have some reason behind a character acting suspiciously (sometimes, it's a simple matter of "this character is an asshole/incompetent"). With Holdo, we're supposed to suddenly think she's a great leader and that she likes Poe, as she claimed to do. Why would she treat Poe that way if she liked him? Why are we supposed to believe in her leadership skills when her plan clearly does not work and her actions lead to a mutiny? If Johnson wanted her to be a sci-fi version of Gene Hackman's character in Crimson Tide or even a Captain Bligh figure, I could get behind it, but we are supposed to think otherwise.

As for Rose, she stops Finn from ramming the First Order as she felt it was a pointless decision, but she solves the ramming problem with more ramming. That is hypocritical at best. And while this has nothing to do with her motivations per se, the kiss was the most unintentionally awkward kiss I have ever seen onscreen, which adds to the ridiculousness of this movie. A forced romance is something to groan about but it's so common that most people can ignore it. But here, she kisses Finn while their friends are about to get murdered behind them. Yet, those aren't fireworks behind them. That is their homebase getting blown apart by fascists. That should be a mood killer. It's as if Johnson himself didn't know the context of his own scene.

[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

Additionally, Holdo and Rose's actions exemplify how the movie's central message is contradicted. The message is that self-sacrifice is pointless in the face of evil. That's all well and good except that the movie doesn't seem to believe it. Poe and Finn were wrong to try to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. And yet, Holdo and Luke sacrificing themselves is an act of bravery. To make matters more frustrating, Rose stopped Finn from doing something that Luke succeeded in doing five minutes later. Both Luke and Finn literally have the same motive: die so that the First Order can't get inside the base. So was Rose wrong in stopping Finn? Apparently not. So was Luke wrong to do what Finn planned to do? Apparently not. The movie can't figure itself out.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

Holdo acts as someone with a much greater responsibility who is left with Poe to deal with. It comes of as antagonism because we know Poe and think he's great. But he's not all that. Which is difficult for some people to handle. So much so that suspicion falls on the Admiral. It turns out she's just doing her job, but for a while the audience let its sympathy and goodwill towards Poe affect our judgement. She was motivated to do her job and not afford special attention to an insubordinate office whom Leia feels responsible for not controlling and the loss of most of their fighter and bomber cover in the process. Holdo's trying to succeed where Leia feels she failed. If some of the audience is motivated to just be on Poe's side due to familiarity with him, rather than see the bigger picture then that's their issue.

I think it's very safe to say that Rose didn't really believe it a terminal ramming for either of them when she did it. Plus her point wasn't don't ever ram things. It was don't waste yourself on gestures. The Resistance needs fighters like Finn. But not as a kamikaze martyr gesture.

I don't see what the perceived seeds for possible future romance (which amounts to a very chaste kiss-before-dying) have to do with logic of motivation for her character. There's no objective basis for your supposition that Rose should have resisted her feelings of tenderness to Finn and, if this is her last moments, left him feeling guilty about her sacrifice . I don't see how the context precludes it. The inevitability of the First Order busting the door was already established. It's just a door blowing up. Another explosion in a long line of explosions which will no doubt continue in Star Wars episode IX. There are far more important emotional climaxes, Rose's apparent sacrifice for Finn among them, than an exploding door.

Rose stopped Finn doing nothing but a useless gesture.

[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

I don't think Poe's great. I feel that he's a pretty flat character, personally, so I don't care if people are mean to him. Additionally, even if I did like him and I felt someone else didn't, I still wouldn't care. Foils exist in most fictional stories and most of the time, it works. It didn't work here because there wasn't a proper set up or payoff. I think Johnson wanted us to think Holdo was the mole to pull the rug out from under us later as a "gotcha" moment. That's fine, but you need to have more than a twist to make a story work. Especially if it's the somewhat cliche' twist of "the person you thought was a bad guy isn't a bad guy".

And as for Rose, you're not getting her contradiction. Obviously, she doesn't want Finn to waste himself on gestures but she was wasting herself on gestures in the process, so where does she get off? Keep in mind, her actions put her in a coma and it could have killed her, so she was very much doing something that could get her killed which is meant to be a big no-no. It also could have killed Finn anyway, so her actions were just as reckless as Finn's but she was being self-righteous about it.

As for their romance, I specifically mentioned that it had nothing to do with her motivation. I was pointing out the awkward tone of it all which was one of my points above. There were other tone issues such as the weird celebratory ending despite the heroes losing the day, but this one was the worst offender. The people in my theater laughed at that scene.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

So essentially your argument for illogical motivations requires retrospectively misconstruing their motivations in order to make them seem illogical. And requires that you declare Poe as flat meaning you're uninterested in the set up for Holdo's seeming intransigence rather than it not existing.

Rose wasn't wasting herself. She didn't think either of them would be killed. But even if there was a chance, she was willing to sacrifice herself to help Finn to fight another day. Finn was just sacrificing himself long after the chance of making any impact was gone.

[–] LennyNero (498) 6 years ago

Wait, you feel that how Holdo acted towards Poe was logical? Personally, I was completely dumbfounded by it. She couldn't trust him? Poe just destroyed Starkiller Base AND a Dreadnaught...I think you can trust him. In fact, they'd probably all be dead if he DIDN'T destroy that Dreadnaught.

If anyone shouldn't be trusted, it's Holdo, and that's what the movie wants you to believe (at first). She needlessly created a situation that led to a mutiny; withholding information that led to a secondary course of action...which got hundreds killed, because she couldn't trust the man that has kept them alive this long.

Her plan isn't even revealed until Poe wakes up in an escape cruiser. When he FINALLY hears the plan, he AGREES with it. He would have agreed to this plan before, but instead, we get a Finn & Rose side story to find a codebreaker (which they don't find), and conveniently end up in a prison cell that has the next best thing - Another codebreaker that can break out of his cell whenever he wants, and is willing to help them on the same mission they were hoping to complete. Well, they get caught, several escape cruisers get destroyed, and many die because of it...all because the movie needed Holdo to act like a foil to Poe.

The movie is very deliberate at treating Poe like an insubordinate, while completely excusing Holdo's decision making, which got even more people needlessly killed. At least Poe's decision to bring down the dreadnaught was a productive use of sacrificing lives to keep everyone else alive that long. If that dreadnaught isn't brought down, they wouldn't even reach a position for Holdo to criticize anyone, or act weird for the sake of giving Finn & Rose their little adventure to the evil casino planet.

Rose's "save the ones we love rather than fight the things we hate" is also simple minded. What did she think Finn was trying to do, but save the one's he loves. Her stunt should have gotten everyone killed.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

Essentially, you wanted Poe to be one dimensionally heroic. And your arguments about why what happens in the film is illogical is based on it not delivering what you want.

You'll find that most things in movies are deliberate.

If anyone shouldn't be trusted, it's Holdo, and that's what the movie wants you to believe (at first)

Jesus. You think? You think that the filmmakers anticipated that most if not all the audience would autmoatically distrust this strange leader, this nasty lady, in favour of the hotshot pilot we're all familiar with even after Leia had to demote him for disobeying her? And then use this for a reversal later on that illustrates some of its main themes? Amazing. It's like they put some thought into it.

Poe became agreeable to the escape plan only after Leia put him in his place over his, Finn's and Rose's failed plan.

You're ignoring the fact that the fleet was only vulnerable to the dreadnought at that moment because Poe was determined to continue a full scale attack after his diversionary ploy had been achieved and then exposed. That's why Leia was pissed at him and why Holdo had to treat him like she did. It wasn't her fault he was a loose canon.

Likewise. If you think Finn was going to save everybody with his suicide stunt then you need to watch the film again.

[–] LennyNero (498) 6 years ago

It's not that I want Poe to be a one dimensionally heroic character, it's just that he's simply written that way, and has been since his introduction to the saga. He destroyed Starkiller base. For all intents and purposes, the guy is a major hero. Destroying the dreadnaught was ultimately a good call by the one dimensionally heroic character. In retrospect, you'd think that Rose would be just as gooey-eyed over Poe as Finn.

Anyhow, I'm certain that the predicament that the resistance has found itself in is better without the dreadnaught in the picture...which is why the screenwriter decided to eliminate it then and there? The screenwriter knew well enough that not destroying "a fleet killer" right there wouldn't work for the rest of the movie (just like Poe thought), but then decided to write Leia and Holdo as characters that couldn't value the destruction of "a fleet killer"...when a fleet is all that is left of them.

This, of course, is ignoring that the bombing fleet (as presented) shouldn't have destroyed the dreadnaught in the first place. The bombing ships were so brittle, large, and slow that none of them should have gotten anywhere near close enough to present a threat. That being said, if they weren't written to take down the dreadnaught then, I can't imagine where else in the script they would have been useful. Perhaps to run out of fuel as well and get destroyed anyway? Tie fighters did well enough shredding them apart.

Of course, Holdo is written to keep audiences guessing. It's just done in the dumbest ways. Can't trust Poe? Really? The resistance is down to 400 people with a foot in the grave, and you want to play I've-got-a-bigger-dick-than-you with one of your most valuable members? And then after she's done playing that silly game with him - resulting in a mutiny - she laughs it off with Leia, claiming "I like him too". Really?

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

That's the definition of one dimensional. He fired the shot that blew up the SKB (after many other people died making it possible) and that makes him "for all intents and purposes" the major hero. That's really thin.

You assume that the dreadnought had to be destroyed then and there based on nothing at all.

You assume that Poe should have been trusted based on the fact that he shot a t a thing in the previous movie, ignoring his gung-ho attitude when it is not what the resistance need at that moment. The leaders of the resistance are telling Poe what's needed and what isn't. There's nothing in the movie that undermines what Holdo and Leia are saying.

When you have to contradict what the characters are telling us in good faith without anything to back up your contradictory statement- That's when you know, you just didn't like it and wanted something different that you probably would have liked better.

[–] LennyNero (498) 6 years ago

Poe pulled a Luke on Starkiller base. He was able to pull off something that several other fighters couldn't. If he wasn't able to pull off what he did, they'd all be dead. That's how the movie was created, and that's how an audience is meant to accept it. The guy is a hero.

The Last Jedi sells the dreadnaught as "a fleet killer". That's the movie giving me information that it feels is important. What's left of the resistance? A fleet. Putting two and two together, I would surmise that a fleet isn't going to last long against a fleet killer. Getting rid of the fleet killer is probably a good idea if a fleet is all you have.

I think that your running under the assumption that Leia and Holdo were well-written characters in a well-written movie. Why wouldn't Leia and Holdo want the dreadnaught destroyed? If a tie fighter is capable of taking out their hanger bay AND their bridge, why isn't the FO simply finishing the job with hundreds of tie fighters? Doesn't make sense, even if there was a throwaway line as to how the the Star Destroyers couldn't protect the tie fighters - Does it matter if the resistance hanger bay and the bridge is already toast?

What kind of damage can the fleet-killing dreadnaught do to their fleet? Well, we'll never know because Poe was written to prioritize its destruction. Why does he prioritize it? Because they have a better chance of survival without its presence? Why don't Leia and Holdo prioritize it? Probably because they're just going to jump into hyperspace. But whoops, they're following us anyway. Ok, now they're better off without the dreadnaught in the picture. Good thing Poe got rid of it. Now here's the new plan?

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

Poe pulled a Luke on Starkiller base. He was able to pull off something that several other fighters couldn't.

Oh good grief. Stop.

[–] LennyNero (498) 6 years ago

Good grief, stop? That's your way of ending a debate? You didn't even quote something outlandish to make anyone doubt its premise. Sure, ignore EVERYTHING else in my previous post...it makes too much goddamn sense.

Luke destroyed the Death Star, and Poe destroyed Starkiller base. Poe pulled a Luke. Coincidently enough, they both needed Han's co-operation to make it possible; adding yet another detail (that I hadn't thought of previously) of how TFA completely bites off of ANH.

It's more like "Good grief, I'm poking holes all over The Last Jedi". The new trilogy is being created by VERY casual fans of Ep 1-6 - All the familiar imagery without any of the soul. Kind of like Terminator and Aliens sequels.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

Poe didn't summon the power of the force to guide him in making an impossible shot. His bravery and singled mindedness helped win the day. He did not pull a Luke. Notice how the alliance, apart from the rogue squadron, aren't taking orders and strategy from Luke three years after ANH. But you expect Poe to be treated like his daddy pays the Resistance's wages.

[–] LennyNero (498) 6 years ago

I wouldn't simply call it bravery and single-mindedness - Anyone that puts on a uniform has to be brave enough to go on these kind of missions. Poe has talent, and is recognized by the enemy as the most talented fighter pilot in the resistance - It's practically gift-wrapped information within the first 5 minutes of TFA. Luke was talented and Poe was talented. Luke is force sensitive, but we don't know if Poe is too. Poe certainly comes across as a more gifted pilot than Luke.

Luke summoned the force in a movie that Lucas wrote and directed. In the new trilogy, Rey doesn't have to summon the force to be great at everything. By extension, neither does Poe. They're just incredibly good at what they do. Is it the force? Well, there's still one movie left to "subvert expectations".

When the resistance has got a foot in the grave, and is down to its last 400 members, well, yeah I think sharing vital information with one of its most important members is worth doing. It simply baffles me that in the face of a mutiny, Holdo insists on keeping her mouth shut...as if the mutiny couldn't possibly alter her master plan. The reality of it is that she keeps her mouth shut, because Johnson still wants to keep the audience out of the loop as to her intentions.

On another note, it's a complete curiosity that the Falcon couldn't ferry everyone off of the Raddus safely. Where did Chewie go when he dropped Rey off at Snoke's ship? What kind of situation did Rey and Chewie think they were in when Rey got dropped off? He simply hyperdrives to their location (undetected, I would assume), and then poof...like a fart in the wind...just waiting god-knows-where to get an uber call from Rey. Be damned the 400 resistance fighters in peril, I'll just wait somewhere else for Rey to turn Kylo, kill Snoke, and call in a ride when she's done. I'll just make a daring appearance when Rose is about to bite the dust (but after half the resistance fighters have been killed).

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

Oh lord. Watch sports instead then.

[–] LennyNero (498) 6 years ago

Poe became agreeable to the escape plan only after Leia put him in his place over his, Finn's and Rose's failed plan? When else was he supposed to become agreeable to it? That was the first time that he heard it. Why wouldn't he have been agreeable to it before? It was a good plan. If they had told Poe earlier, Finn and Rose wouldn't have had a plan to screw up.

I mean, the man performs a mutiny because he cares. Don't you think THEN would have been a good time to reveal her plan? You know, before he potentially does something that can ruin it completely?

The screenwriter was infatuated with making Holdo ambiguous to the unfortunate detriment of how it affected everything else. Because of it, we have about 40 minutes of side story that doesn't ultimately lead anywhere. Actually, more resistance fighters die because of it, but the screenplay doesn't dwell on that major screw up. It doesn't jive well when Poe is oddly written as a character that is making sound decisions that has kept the resistance alive long enough to even get into a position for Holdo to play games.

This is just one aspect of the movie that felt silly. The new movies feel like they were constructed out of a half-read Star Wars Cliff's Notes, and feel completely disconnected from episodes 1-6. Very fan-fiction.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

It's not for him to be agreeable to it. It's for him to follow orders.

You seem to fail to realise that you're not supposed to break chain of command and give subordinates special treatment because you like them.

we have about 40 minutes of side story that doesn't ultimately lead anywhere.

Nowhere that you liked. It actually led to Poe, Finn and Rose nearly getting the remainder of the reistance wiped out before they reached Crait.

[–] LennyNero (498) 6 years ago

Because Holdo couldn't be on the level. Every minute that she withholds vital information is another minute that a distrustful nature can lead to a mutiny - A mutiny that can potentially destroy the plan. The resistance is in a dire, hopeless situation. Death is knocking on the door. What's her course of action? Silence. What does she say when two remaining freighters go down? Nothing.

What's the plan? It's a simple question. How the hell are we going to get out of this? Why should I be beholden to what this person has to say any further? At this point, who gives a shit about a chain of command? Is she the enemy? She certainly acted like it, and Poe naturally treated her like one.

It's not about the movie taking directions that I either liked or didn't. It's more that the direction they chose wasn't executed very well. The movie spent so much time with a side story that ultimately led to what happens when Holdo refuses to tell desperate people how they're going to live to see another day.

Forty minutes of screen time that probably would have been better spent explaining how Luke became a completely different character over the last 30 years. Perhaps a better understanding of Kilo Ren's motivations, or his relationship to Snoke. Who's Snoke? I guess we'll never know. Rey is the perfect Jedi. How? Why? I'm curious. Aren't those questions more intriguing than a dick swinging contest between Poe and Holdo?

What exists could have been good. I just don't think it is.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

Utter nonsense. The military
doesn't mollycoddle personell they think might
stir a mutiny.

[–] Keelai (34855) 6 years ago

"Telling me you're reading GOT isn't going to impress me either."

It sounds like you can't distinguish between great writing and dribble which is why you're content with dribble.

[–] Recognizer (386) 6 years ago

Awards not make one great.

When you're writing the middle act of a 3-act play, it needs to have continuity with and be consistent with the first act, otherwise it's incoherent. That's just common sense, not a question of fan theories.

Abrams very clearly set up several plot threads and character arcs in TFA, none of which were pursued by Johnson. Indeed, he seems to have deliberately subverted many of them. That's not a case of violation of fan theories, it's a case of violation of the basic definition of "trilogy" and the (reasonable) expectation everyone has had for decades of what a trilogy is and the rules of continuity they must follow.

Johnson thought it would be edgy to violate those rules. He was wrong.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

"Abrams very clearly set up several plot threads and character arcs in TFA..."

Abrams was very clearly telling us before TFA even came out that this was not the case.

In fact one of the most prominent complaints of some fans when TFA came out was regarding this fact.

[–] Recognizer (386) 6 years ago

Really? So having the lightsaber call to Rey, her subsequent visions, Maz's answer to Han when he asks her where she got the lightsaber, Maz asking Han who Rey is, then the camera cutting away before he can answer ... what's all that then? More of Abram's infamous "mystery box" shit? To me, those elements constitute a clear set-up. If Abrams didn't intend that, then he shouldn't have written it that way.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

If you already identify JJ as exactly the kind of guy who would do this kind of "shit" (mystery box, as you put it), why are you assuming now that it's a set up for things that are promised and should have been delivered?

[–] Recognizer (386) 6 years ago

Because it's Star Wars. Seems like I naively expected JJ to be different for this :/ Maybe I expected that he'd grown/developed as a director. I stand corrected.

[–] Martoto (5024) 6 years ago

Sounds like TLJ just hasn't validated the conclusions you've jumped to, regarding the questions posed by TFA.

The "saber calls to Rey, even though she's not a Skywalker (still, as far as we know). Conclude that the preoccupation with the Skywalkers regarding the force, the galaxy balance etc, is undue. Don't conclude that she must be a Skywalker. But if you've already answered the question posed by TFA beforehand then why would you need to see TLJ at all?

Maz asks Rey who she is, and the answer is suspended in TFA. But nowhere did it promise that they answer would be forthcoming and unequivocal in the next movie. That's because Rey either doesn't really know or can't really face the truth that she knows.

Rey's search for belonging and importance is an ongoing journey in this trilogy.

[–] Thrillhouse (1509) 6 years ago

I think the problem is they're not concerned about making a profit. Disney has more money than they know what to do with and that frees them from the constraint of satisfying the market. Google and Facebook were good largely free of censorship when they were trying to make a profit and grow. It's only now that they start censoring. It's a normal business cycle. Disney bought a very expensive franchise in order to use up the good will as a vehicle to push political propaganda.

[–] Keelai (34855) 6 years ago

There is never too much money for rich people and large corporations. All Disney cares about is making money. They know that the original Star Wars trilogy was very popular which is why they are playing it safe by constantly copying from it. They want a sure thing. That's the same reason why you see remakes of a popular movie or TV show too. Anything new presents a risk that it may not be popular. Even JJ Abrams said he was reintroducing the original SW universe, but with new characters.

Trumpites continue to be clueless about demographics. It's not profitable to have white males remain the only target audience when they are diminishing in population which is why Disney and many other companies are expanding their target audience to be more inclusive.

Google, Facebook and other social media have always censored. But, a growing number of foreign countries have weaponized them to attack the U.S. and other democracies.

[–] Thrillhouse (1509) 6 years ago

Why is America less white than it used to be? By accident? It's the agenda in action isn't it? It's a success.

Your narrative is a schizophrenic mess. Disney is intentionally hiring untalented people... because they only care about money? How does a bad product make more money? How does Facebook make more money by censoring and having less content? Don't you remember how Disney even had to censor out the black guy in order to sell Start Wars in China?

Nate Silver said Trump had a 2% chance. How does he still have a job? Trump supporters understand more than you want to give credit for. You really need to rethink that whole "diversity is our strength" corporate morality.

[–] Keelai (34855) 6 years ago

"Why is America less white than it used to be?"
Past racial discrimination in immigration law like The Naturalization Act of 1790 which only allowed free whites to be naturalized or the Chinese Exclusion Act which was changed to be more inclusive. Also, Texas, California, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Oklahoma, Kansas and Wyoming used to be Mexico so with the transfer of land, millions of Mexicans became Americans.
Presently, most children under 5 years old are nonwhite.

"It's the agenda in action isn't it?"
Americans fought to end racial hatred and discrimination during the 50s and 60s and soon after Immigration Laws were changed to become fair.

"How does a bad product make more money?"
Good advertising or branding. Crap products and services make money all the time.

"Disney is intentionally hiring untalented people... because they only care about money?"
Actually, Disney made a tremendous amount of money therefore they are satisfied with the people they hired and consider them talented in making them money which is Disney's objective.

"How does Facebook make more money by censoring and having less content?"
Easily. They have advertisers who pay them well for access to 2.27 billion monthly active users.

"Nate Silver said Trump had a 2% chance."
I said Trump had a very good chance because Americans are stupid and easily conned. Apparently, I was right. I don't know Silver.
I also said that Americans would slowly realize they were conned and turn against the Republican party/Trump in growing numbers which happened during the last election. Blue wave across the U.S. including in my state.

"You really need to rethink that whole "diversity is our strength" corporate morality."
Nah!
"Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. Symbolising the elements that create truth and beauty." - Mr. Spock

[–] billbrown7071 (3194) 6 years ago

I have no problem with originality. I do have a problem with an incoherent script. Johnson is clearly not a writer.

^^^

Have you seen Looper?

I'm not suggesting your wrong or even arguing....I hated The Last Jedi...

But I've seen Looper which Johnson wrote and directed....IMO Its fantastic, The overwhelming Majority agree also....

I think your statement that "He's not a writer" is at the very least not accurate...

IMO a better way to put it wouldbe "Maybe he wasnt the right writer for Star Wars"

I think His excellent work on Looper at least proves He's capable of Great Writing....only time will tell if That was a One hit wonder or if he Writes many good films

If you havent seen Looper or You have seen it and have the opinion its not good, I guess I can understand why you'd say "He's Not a Writer"....

But other than that, I have no clue how you could say "He's not a writer" and think thats a factually correct statement...

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

But I've seen Looper which Johnson wrote and directed....IMO Its fantastic, The overwhelming Majority agree also....

You'll get a lot of disagreement on this one. Just judging by Looper, I was disappointed the day Johnson was put in this project. I think Looper is AWFUL, the script is terrible, the setups are lame (floating coin in opening is a really transparent setup that sure takes its time becoming relevant), the ex machina kid is lame, and his script completely betrays its own time travel logic, turning the entire thing into absolutely FAILED science fiction.

It has a few cool scenes, though.

[–] billbrown7071 (3194) 6 years ago

You'll get a lot of disagreement on this one

^^^

actually I'll get Universally agreement....Or at least near 90%

Like I said, I hated The Last Jedi...I'm not saying that movie suggests Johnson is a good writer or director....

But as far as Looper goes....Based on any way you judge the movie, The consensus is crysta clear...The overwhelming majority considers it very good....

If you think Its bad, thats perfectly fine....

But all I'm saying is, Based on Johnson's work on Looper, Its indicates He is capable of Good writing(and the Majority agrees with that)....does that make him A Good writer? ...No...IMO that will take time to tell...

Johnson is surely going to make Multiple more movies in his career, some of which I'm sure He'll write....If in say 10 years we look back and he's made 6 films and Looper is the only one that Is considered good, Then we'll know Looper was just a One Hit Wonder and Johnson wasn't/Isnt a good writer....

Right Now, Its too early to say....You've got one film in Looper where the consensus is Overwhelming thats its a good film...and You got 1 film in The Last Jedi that also has A great Consensus, But was A film that Infuriated Hardcore fans....

The Last Jedi is tricky because theres arguments on both sides for if It proves Johnson is a good or bad writer...

On The side that suggests TLJ proves Johnson is a good writer, you have The overwhelming majority of people that saw the film who liked(Star Wars fans only make up about 15% on the audience that seeing the SW films)

So you Literally got 85% of the people who saw it, Most of whom dont know much about Star Wars and are only judging the film based on its entertainment and for The movie itself, All Universally agree the film was good

IMO thats a strong argument that Johnson did in fact make and write a good film(worth noting I'm in the minority here, I'm not a star wars fan, Only saw the movie for entertainmen, and HATED it..But I recognize that I'm in The minority)

on the other side, It strongly suggest Johnson is either A Terrible writer or just absolutely did not care 1 bit what Fans thought....Because its almost unimaginable to think He didnt know The things he was writing In The Last Jedi was going to be hated by The Hardcore fanbase....Thats part of his job as a writer, You dont have to Build your movie around what fanboys will like...but youve at least got to know when you are writing Events that are going to infuriate A fanbase...

simply put, Johnson either made An inexcusable mistake and wasnt smart enough to know the script he was writing was going to be Hated By Fans, Which IMO Makes him A Bad Writer...

Or He absolutely Knew The fans were going to hate it and Just wanted to make His Movie...which again IMO makes him a bad writer, You can not do that with a Star Wars films...Nolan did it with his Batman flms, Other directors have done it with other popular franchises....but theres a difference with SW...

So....IMO The Last Jedi ...Is tricky...I dont think it proves he's a bad writer or good writer yet....Theres very good argument on both sides...

IMO time Will be ONLY Judge...He's got to make more movies...

right now, He's made 1 Good to Great film

and another that Could easily be judged good or bad....

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

Looper got a boost from Joseph Gordon Levitt, who was the Nolan Dreamchild of that year since he was in Dark Knight Rises (which is far far worse than Looper, IMO).

It also gets a boost by being a "mafia/mob" movie, which IMO get extremely overrated simply by being in that genre. I really don't understand the appeal of mafia crap, I guess it's a fantasy for people who aren't actually into crime but think they'd like it.

But I've seen enough reviews from sci-fi fans who realize it's not actually a sci-fi script.

However, Johnson was pretty green when he did Looper. He was also pretty green when he did Last Jedi, and it shows on both projects.

Hell, he did interviews where he admitted to having less knowledge about filmmaking techniques than I do. HE LITERALLY DIDN'T KNOW HOW THE "MANY REYS" SCENE WAS DONE! Yes, he left that up to other people and just told them to do it because he didn't have any clue, and even after the movie came out, he STILL DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT.

I explained how that scene was done after 30 seconds of thinking about it. It's actually quite simple.

Johnson is not a very good writer or director, unfortunately. It seems he just landed in that field like Neill Blomkamp, a man who at least admits he's in over his head and admits he's not a storyteller.

[–] Keelai (34855) 6 years ago

I left out good. He's not a good writer.

I saw Looper but I barely remember it. I remember it being OK, but nothing great which is saying a lot since I'm a sci-fi time travel plot junky. Looper came out in 2012 therefore he had time to prove his talent.

Johnson is better with visuals than with words, story and continuity. Much of Last Jedi made no sense and contradicts established story-telling in the previous movies. I can't recall any memorable dialogue in Looper nor Last Jedi.

"...a factually correct statement......"
It's my personal opinion.

I also believe he's lazy and sloppy for not doing the research necessary to make a SW sequel. Jedi don't mind meld their Force and fighting abilities and the balance of the Force has nothing to do with an appearance by a strong Jedi = a strong Sith.

[–] billbrown7071 (3194) 6 years ago

I left out good. He's not a good writer.

^^^

we'll then again I say have you seen Looper?

which I see you have, But the point is, Looper is Proof He is capable of good writing...The consensus is overwhelming, The Majority considers that film very good....

Its fine that you dont, but Most do....

You if believe you've seen enough evidence right now to conclude Johnson isnt a good writer, fine....

but IMO that wont be known for awhile...He's got to make a few more films....

If in 10 years we look back and hes made 5 films and Looper is his lone film that is consider good....then Looper was clearly just a One Hit Wonder...

But right now, He's made 1 Very good film and another in The Last Jedi that has a very good Consensus but is hated by its core fan base....

IMO thats not even close to enough to decide if hes a bad writer

[–] Keelai (34855) 6 years ago

The fans hated the last Jedi including yourself. Unfortunately, film "critics" aren't as honest as they should be since they can lose their perks for being negative. Would you want to risk Avenger movie premiere tickets? also, many critics may not know the SW story therefore may be ignorant of the many contradictions that Johnson had introduced.

It's very unusual for me to not enjoy a time travel flick and I only thought Looper was OK. He's written 5 theatrical films since 2005. Thirteen years is a longtime. His resume is weak if he only has one good film in all that time.

Are you excited to see his SW trilogy? I'm not. I believe he'll ruin SW further since he doesn't appear to understand the story.

[–] CriticalCatalyst (115) 6 years ago

Agree 100%. Most of the hatred for this movie is beyond irrational. Either you like it or you don’t. I myself hated TFA. Every second of it. What I didn’t do, however, was go on a crusade oneline to crush anyone who has a different opinion than mine. I actually loved this movie and I know I’m in the minority. I’m not very optimistic about episode 9 due to the fact Abrams is back at the helm. I believe he is overrated as a director. Fingers crossed, though.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

[deleted]

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Disney didn't ruin or rape my childhood. Nothing that they do or plan on doing could do otherwise (I am always amazed and baffled by statements like those). I was a fan of some of the EU. Some of it was great and some of it sucked, but it was all that was available for 20 years, and in that 20 years I grew to accept that those novels and comics represented the further adventures of the cast of Star Wars. As soon as disney dropped the EU I knew that no matter what they came up with that I would have a problem with it. From the little that I have seen of disney's Star Wars I am glad that I didn't bother with it as it seems (to me) that it is on par with the worst of the EU or even worse than the worst of the EU. As for my being biased and thinking that the OT was amazing as a whole, well that isn't true at all. I thought that ROTJ was pretty terrible and the more I see of that movie the more depressing it becomes. It had good parts, but overall the movie was bad. Some examples of it's badness are that Leia was Luke's sister, the Empire rebuilt the Death Star, the Ewoks save the day, Luke just surrenders to the Empire, Han and company just walk into the shield generator, I can keep going... As for the PT there were some really great ideas there, but it was very obvious that Lucas hadden't written or directed anything in a LONG time. Had he written drafts of all the PT and then had someone else rewrite them and had he hired a great director I am certain that the PT would have turned out better. This new trilogy (so far) just seems as if they didn't know what to do with the franchise (although, maybe it was their intention to deliberately divide the fan base- I wouldn't put it past a them) I liken disney's Star Wars to what they did with the movie the Black Hole. They had a huge budget, good sets, a good cast, but they had no idea how to write a proper space opera, and 30 plus years later they still don't. That's my take on the situation.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

I'm wondering why they're CONTINUING Star Wars at all, because the whole story was told in the first six movies.

Star Wars was ONLY EVER about the Skywalker family, and Anakin's rise and fall and redemption. That's it. This story was told.

What else more is there to say? I don't particularly care about other worlds or characters OTHER than the ones introduced in the saga (first six movies only). I have never seen these TV offshoots of Clones or Rebels, and frankly, I don't like the look of these utterly MINOR characters one bit. I thought the unofficial Clones movie was pathetic. This is the problem with the franchise, aside from the Skywalkers, it is about WARS in SPACE. Yawn. This severely limits the franchise, as opposed to other, more versatile, sci-fi franchises.

Look at Disney Star Wars. They're trying to relive past glories, and are failing miserably at them. It's almost humorous, watching Disney desperately milk that Star Wars cow to death as much as they can, just so they can then sell off the carcass as cheap meat to their ideal partner, McDonald's (I wonder why they haven't joined together yet? They're a match made in heaven!)

Nope, Star Wars is a diseased leper, and other franchises have taken over. Not to mention that the SJWs and identity politics pillocks have caused the disease, and unfortunately, Star Wars is not the only one. I would put the whole thing out of its misery.

I'm 46 years old, and technically old enough to have been swallowed up in the whole Star Wars hysteria from the start. But I never did. I never even saw the OT in order, or entirely in the cinema. I know what it's like to be a massive fan of something and obsess over every little detail, I did it with Harry Potter when the first movie came out (I never knew anything about it before then) and it took a few years to die down, but nope, not Star Wars. I love sci-fi, and have known Doctor Who and Star Trek extensively, but Star Wars to me is not superior to them.

[–] Keelai (34855) 6 years ago

"...I'm wondering why they're CONTINUING Star Wars at all..."
Profit.

[–] TexasJack (12516) 6 years ago

So you're moderating an imaginary argument between two imaginary people? Kooky.

The only time I've heard the "ruined childhood" line is from someone seeking to insult the many Star Wars fans who loathed this movie.

[–] MichaelPacino (179) 6 years ago

Sometimes it’s fun to write the world in a way I see.

I’ve heard it from a few people but I do agree most people do it to mock those who didn’t like the movie.

[–] cyberbob (3488) 6 years ago

Nobody cares if you're an amateur writer/actor/director. Why are you trying to plug your shitty short films? Lol

[–] MichaelPacino (179) 6 years ago

Um... im not??

[–] kenburke (2369) 6 years ago

Some people just don't like change.

*small rant, turned into thoughts on the whole 'Star Wars' mess. Feel free to ignore, read, or discuss*

small rant, turned into thoughts on the whole 'Star Wars' mess. Feel free to ignore, read, or discuss