MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > Why does Jedi need to end?

Why does Jedi need to end?

posted 7 years ago by fc31 (5394)
17 replies | jump to latest

Luke kept saying that, but never said why. And Yoda burnt Jedi temple (using Sith lightning?).

I get it Rian (or is it Kathleen Kennedy?) hates star wars and wants to destroy it, but I thought they should at least have the decency to explain why, or did I miss it?

I know almost everything Lucas built was ignored in the movie, but I did not expect something as fundamental as "Jedi use force only for knowledge and defense, never to attack". Luke was a fully qualified Jedi, supposed to be wise and calm and with no fear. If he had fear he would have been a Sith. You are going to tell me he was frightened by a boy and tried to kill him? Lucas's world is destroyed all right.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Because RJ is a clever dick who tried to insert meta commentary where it doesn't belong. He's trying to say 'forget about the past' i.e. 'forget about the old, good Star Wars and gobble down the new shit Star Wars instead'. He also had to find someway for Luke and Rey to interact when Rey is perfect and requires no teaching. As the classic 'wise old man teaches naive student' option is out thanks to KKKs gender bigotry that only left Luke being either broken or evil. Guess he went for the lesser of two evils in his mind.

But if it helps Mark Hamill and a huge amount of Star Wars fans agree with you.

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

It doesn't make sense. The whole argument that the Jedi had to end was because : The teachings of the Jedi ways was flawed and gave rise to the Empire and the Sith. Their teachings were flawed in the way that you shouldn't shut down those emotions like fear or anger, but you should control them.
The Jedi say that you have to shut emotions down.
The Prequel Trilogy showed the flaws of the Jedi. HOWEVER, in the Original Trilogy, Luke realises this. He abandons his training on Dagobah with Yoda, in order to save his friends.
His emotional attachments to his friends is the weakness that the Jedi order trained against.

He didn't shut those feelings off, he accepted them en learned to controle his anger and fear.
So in a way, Luke became the ultimate Jedi. He used the positive things that the Jedi Order teaches, but got rid of the flawed teachings of the Jedi Order. So you could imagine, that when Luke started his own Jedi Temple, he would train and teach the children to be the Jedi he is. That would be the perfect Jedi Order that would create peace in the galaxy.

However, in this version of Star Wars, Luke is suddenly all anti-Jedi again, and hates it, and wants to burn it. It doesn't make sense. The reason he gives in The Last Jedi is the same reason the Prequels give. That the Jedi Order is naive and flawed. BUT HE KNEW THIS ALREADY. He even went as far as to disregard the flaws of the Jedi Order (he saved his friends instead of finishing his training). So why in fucks name does the new Jedi Order have to end? What is wrong with the Jedi Order that Luke creates? Because Kylo turned bad? That was because of Snoke. Just like the Emperor fucked with Vader. So why in hell is Vader redeemable but is Kylo doomed?

This fcking movie doesn't make any sense....

[–] fc31 (5394) 7 years ago

All this explanation is quite good. But none of this is directly stated in the movie. Also what did Yoda have against Jedi order?

In this movie Rey is actually more passionate, Kylo is mostly calm and wise. I don't know what they are.

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

It's because the movie makers don't care. They are inconsistent. The tackled the Jedi 'problem' already with the prequels and the original trilogy. But in this movie they bring it up again. It doesn't make sense. Its like Rian Johnson only saw the prequels and not the Original Trilogy. There is absolutely 0 reason for the Jedi needing to end, because Luke saved the Jedi order and reformed it. But I guess Luke didn't? pff I can't even with this movie anymore.

Can't even talk about Rey or Kylo. They are completely off. Rey is almost the best Jedi I have ever seen. She has complete control over her emotions. Han Solo gets killed in front of her > she doesn't care. No anger. She gets told that her parents that she is waiting for her whole life are dead and mean nothing > no anger, no sadness. Nothing. She should have joined the Dark Side like 100 times already. Yet she is so perfect in every way. How is there any conflict within this character? Its just plain boring. It's also why she doesn't need any training. She is already perfect. Why even need a Jedi Order when these characters are born perfect? Why Kylo turns evil? nobody knows.... This piece of shit movie doesn't want to explain anything. Its horrible bland writing.

[–] pzogel (187) 7 years ago

Excellent points. Would be interested in seeing RJ's useless response to them.

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

Probably the same responds as when he explained Leia's space flying power. ''because she is a fucking badass'' - Rian Johnson, paid writer and director.

[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

Because something that worked for keeping galactic peace for "over a thousand generations", i.e. roughly 25,000 years, should obviously be scrapped because of one defeat.

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

Lol I forgot about that. Makes me question if Rian Johnson actually saw a single Star Wars movie in his life.

[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

I don't think he saw TFA. I've reposted this a few times, so apologies if you've seen it before:

"The director then shared that the 'first thing' he did when working on the movie's story was establishing why Luke went into seclusion all those years ago. 'I didn't have any answers,' Johnson admitted. 'But it's not like you can just pick anything you want out of the air.' "

No answers? Like this one straight from Han Solo in TFA?

"He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything."

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

Lol, I haven't seen that yet. It does kinda show how bad Rian Johnson prepared for this. Even though it kinda does follow the same plot (Kylo destroying and turning on Luke) the reason Kylo turns is just so stupid. I really hated how Luke ignited his lightsaber (or do we call them laser swords now?) in an attempt to kill him. Who the fuck does that? Definitely not the person who wanted to give his life to redeem Darth Vader, a mass murder.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

It would be nice if Snoke was manipulating Luke at that point too, just to fully turn Kylo to the dark side.

[–] fc31 (5394) 7 years ago

My problem was more that Rian was reported listing all possibility of stories, in one of them Rey was a robot. But the fact that the story was not planned at all was really surprising. How seriously Disney is taking star wars? Don't they need to have a basic story before planning a trilogy. I kind of understand now why TFA was a copy of ANH, they probably had nothing to begin with, just making things up as they move along.

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

TV series and Soap Opera writers don't plan several seasons into the future... Star Wars has been this way for a while, they just make it up as they go along... These are no longer movies, just TV for the big screen...

It's like Lost, House of Cards, Sopranos, or any number of long running shows... there is no ending, so there is no climax, therefore there can be no catharsis or overall meaning... Just momentary highs and lows, cliffhangers, false resolusions and such... incident after incident, plot points that go nowhere, repetition, just wasting time...

It's the nature of the serialised TV show. It is a medium to sell product, the writing is just there to prolong the brand and "property"; Disney, Star Wars and Marvel have brought that model to the theatre screen... Expect spin off TV shows at some point... I think the Star Wars TV shows would be very successfull, as it is the ideal model for this kind of product... The CGI is cheep enough now to do it on some level...

They just aren't movies anymore...

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

This is false. ''Star Wars has been this way for a while, they just make it up as they go along'' Only the very first Star Wars movie was made this way. As soon as they started making Empire Strikes Back, Lucas planned the whole thing (hence naming it episode 5 and renaming Star Wars to Episode 4 A New Hope). He planned all episodes to tell a full story. So its just not true. The only movies that had no planning or future vision were A New Hope and now all the Disney Star Wars movies.

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

I recongnise your point, but Disney has been making these movies, this way, for a while now...
They've already released three movies and one is in progress... So a third of the whole of Star Wars has already been made up this way...

[–] Vechtersbaas (550) 7 years ago

Yea sure. DISNEY, is the one having no vision and no plans. Thats correct.You are wrong to compare it to Marvel though. Marvel plans their movies far in advance and makes sure every entry is canon and compatible with the rest of the movies. Its quite amazing how well it works. Lucasfilm however, does not.

[–] bobbynynex (1505) 7 years ago

because the movies are shait