MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > Why is it that most Rey/Jyn lovers never...

Why is it that most Rey/Jyn lovers never acknowledge strong female characters like Sarah Connor, Ellen Ripley, etc?

posted 7 years ago by dteam6 (5073)
34 replies | jump to latest

In fact--I've been called a "misogynist" before for stating that Princess Leia was a legit strong female character and that Jyn isn't. My reasoning was that Jyn (and to a great extent, Rey) is presented as a super-powered "can do it all" female character with very few flaws and presented in a pushy "I'm female and strong!" fashion.

I was also called a misogynist and accused of only liking Leia because "she's a princess and you think all women must be princesses!" or some crap.

My reasons for liking Ripley, Connor and Leia are the same: they are all there strong women with intelligence, a good head on their shoulders, vulnerability and practicality. Their characters feel HUMAN. They don't feel agenda-driven. They are conveyed as REAL people: they CRY and show their vulnerable side but also show their strong and resilient sides. They are shown as mothers (nowadays it seems like all these "supa stwong femalez" are never depicted as mothers and many feminists nowadays view the depiction of a pregnant female lead as somehow "demeaning") who are strong, self-reliant, struggling to take care of themselves and their children and be the heroes they are. I'm not saying that all female characters have to be depicted as mothers in order to be strong--I'm just stating that Hollywood never shied away from it back then as they do now.

Look at Sarah Connor in Terminator 2: she's a badass female character--perhaps one of the most badass of all time. She can be downright SCARY in her badassery at times...yet, she's a PERSON. She hurts, too. She hugged her son and cried. She was both strong and able to show her vulnerable side as ALL people do.

With these Rey/Jyn characters (and some others nowadays) I just feel as if they're portrayed as infallible superbeings. They can do it all--Rey is already stronger than Luke in many ways with no prior training. Jyn knows all these kung fu moves and a nonstop snarky attitude--which is FINE--but she rarely expresses any other traits than a "supa stwong" female character.

I feel the same way about Luke: he's shown to be kind but capable of fighting while having his own strengths and weaknesses.

You'd think people wanting strong female characters nowadays would be rooting for these three female characters who are always curiously overlooked in these arguments.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Can't speak to Jyn, never seen Rogue One, but I've noticed time and time again that Rey-bashers refuse to acknowledge her weaknesses and mistakes, instead simply referring to her as infallible or perfect or etc.

Rey is also not exactly human, and there are no set limitations in the Force and what it can imbue people with. It can even create people in the womb, with an intended destiny, so it is literal magic in every sense.

[–] AckbartheHutt (1370) 7 years ago

Rey is not perfect and infallible but there is still no explanation for her powers and skills in TFA and TLJ. We know that the force awakened in Rey in TFA but why?

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

It awakened because it needed to.

Anakin was created by the Force, so the Force can do what it wants and can imbue anyone with any level of power.

There is also no explanation for how Luke became a powerful Jedi knight with a few days of training (mostly cardio with Yoda, he and Ben trained for like a minute), how he became better than Vader at saber fighting even though he was never trained in saber combat, etc.

Hell, consider A New Hope: Luke knows that the Force allows for a mind trick he saw Ben do, it allowed Luke to predict taser blasts from a droid and block them without seeing, and it allowed Luke to have perfect aiming at the Death Star.

He never saw any telekinesis, yet at the beginning of Empire Strikes Back, Luke somehow knows that he can pull his lightsaber out of the ice. There's no way for him to know that telekinesis is even possible. He hadn't even heard of the Force before Ben told him a little about it.

The only "explanations" I ever hear are just that it's okay for Luke because none of it happened as quickly as it did with Rey. Apparently, time spent NOT doing something is equivalent to "training" (at least between ESB and ROTJ, Luke could be practicing some things on his own, like the mind trick, though the mind trick fails twice in the saga, it's limited)

Thus, the core complaint is that Rey picked up force pulls and mind tricks without training faster than Luke picked up force pulls and mind tricks without training.

She exceeded the speed of a man's development, and thus it is "wrong," while the man's unexplainable development is fully allowed.

The lightsaber debate is even sillier considering Rey knew how to fight with a staff already and took care of herself for 14 years, while Luke grew up a farm boy with adopted parents... Plus, Rey's enemy was severely wounded and she only got the upper hand by focusing on the Force (after doing very poorly for most of the fight and running away).

[–] AckbartheHutt (1370) 7 years ago

Anakin trained with Obi-Wan for 10 years and still wasn't made a Jedi until the events in AOTC.

"But Anakin was not made to take such trials, so then how did he become a Jedi Knight?

Well, it was through his efforts during the first year of the Clone Wars, that proved his worth as a Jedi Knight, and also some convincing by Obi Wan.

Obi Wan, before he became a Jedi Master and had a seat on the council, requested an audience with them to discuss Anakin’s progress as a Jedi. There, he vouched for Anakin’s experience during the war, and that through his valiant efforts on the battlefield had essentially passed the Jedi Trials, and they would therefore be redundant. He came before them requesting that Anakin be made a Knight, and that there was little more that he could teach him.

The council agreed, and they arranged the knighting ceremony for Skywalker, where Obi Wan and Anakin would no longer be master and apprentice, but equals, and brothers in the Force."

Luke did not become a Jedi until ROTJ when Yoda told him that he would have to face Vader to become a Jedi.

"He received his initial training from Obi-Wan Kenobi and additional training from Yoda, but he did not become a Jedi until his final confrontation with Vader on the Death Star under construction in Return of the Jedi:
Yoda: No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.
Luke: Then I am a Jedi.
Yoda: No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will."

Rey: In the TLJ, Luke says that she is the last Jedi. Now how and why did Rey become a Jedi with no training or explanation of anything. There is still no explanation of why she is so skilled with a laser sword and was able to fight with Kylo to defeat the red imperial guards with such grace and skill.

[–] PresidentAckbar (1289) 7 years ago

A brief training session with Obi-wan Kenobi and a training remote onboard the Millenium Falcon, on the way to Alderaan, where he learned the basics of lightsaber form

On Devaron he found training remotes and used his previous training from Kenobi to practice and improve against the exercises the went through

Luke returned to Tatooine and found The Journals of Ben Kenobi that Kenobi had written and left for him, and he proceeded to study there from there onwards, including information about lightsaber combat

On Nar Shaddaa, he was caught by Grakkus and trained by a figure called the gamemaster in lightsaber combat

He presumably underwent lightsaber training on Dagobah with Yoda, though it is not shown on-screen in TESB

Note that all of this takes place before his duel with Vader on Bespin

Beyond this, as ancillary to lightsaber training itself, he:

Practiced privately during this time

Learned about how to construct a lightsaber based on studying Huulik's lightsaber and any information given to him by Obi-wan Kenobi, culminating in his construction of his own/new lightsaber on Tatooine right before rescuing Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt

Over this time, Luke also grew stronger in the Force, and engaged in several duels/combats, which presumably increased his skill and experience, such as:

A ghest on Rodia

Bounty hunters on Omereth

Stormtroopers on Devaron

A brief duel with Darth Vader on Cymoon I

Boba Fett on Tatooine

Stormtroopers, and Kongo the Disemboweler, a beast with lightsaber-resistant armor, in the arena in Grakkus' Palace

A second duel on Bespin with Darth Vader (where Vader wasn't trying to kill him, only defeat, subdue and turn him to the dark side)

The rescue of Han Solo on Tatooine, and all that that entailed (including holding off Boba Fett, again)

His final duel with Darth Vader, where he managed to defeat him

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Oh yeah: And "broom boy" at the end of Last Jedi does a Force pull just to get his broom that's five inches from his hand, with no training and probably no knowledge of the Force, and he's like 10 years old.

However, I have yet to see anyone complaining about broom boy or worrying that he might be more powerful than Luke and Rey and Anakin.

Despite all the complaints about Last Jedi, broom boy's power seems to be fully allowed.

What do broom boy, Luke and Anakin have in common that is different from Rey? Hmmmm....

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Oh and I'm curious as to your opinion on this. I saw many complaints about TFA that Finn was portrayed the way he was, including being "emasculated," solely to elevate Rey.

However, I theorize that Leia would be much more guilty of this in A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back.

Here is a link to a topic with my point, and while it was posted tongue-in-cheek, it's still a valid argument:
https://moviechat.org/tt2488496/Star-Wars-The-Force-Awakens/5a3d559c336c6c0014568252/Why-cant-Leia-be-a-strong-character-without-tearing-down-men

Do you have any opinion on that? Disregard that the reply somehow thought I was referring to Force Awakens.

Oddly enough, I can't get a single "masculinist" on these boards to address the substance of the point. I've tried on this board too, multiple times.

[–] LetThemEatCake (2717) 7 years ago

There is no point in reasoning with feminists or socially conscious people today because they are all fanatics. There have always been strong female characters since the beginning of films, way stronger than today, but since the rot of people like Gloria Steinem and her minions refuse to acknowledge them, the sheep won't acknowledge them either. As a matter of fact, past characters were way stronger than today. Natalie Portman in Thor the dark world is as useless as it comes. Her entire career is useless. Nicole Kidman just won a golden globe for portraying a raped and beaten up woman. Women are weaker now than ever. It's best just to ignore it all.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

^An excellent example of bloviating.

[–] AckbartheHutt (1370) 7 years ago

Padme is not useless, you take that back!

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Because that doesn't fit the narrative which is that 'strong' female characters didn't exist prior to 2015. This is then in turn used to excuse Rey (clearly one of the worst characters ever written) - she's 'fixing' a problem.

The sad thing for me is that I actually do believe there is a problem - not that there is an absence of good female characters but there's definitely a lack, but here's the thing - Rey in no way fixes that. She just makes it worse! I mean, is she even female? Does she demonstrate any feminine qualities? How would this character be any different if she was a man? All they have done is get a (pretty good it seems) actress to play Luke Skywalker and then remove every weakness and flaw, and what is the result? A terrible character that sinks the film.

You see Rey doesn't just spoil 'her bit' of the film, she ruins it for everyone! No one can help her, no one else can exceed her, the bad guys can't beat her, she can't be seen to suffer or fail. I mean, just try writing a story like that and see if it's any good!

[–] dteam6 (5073) 7 years ago

You said it perfectly, my friend. 100% agreed.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Yes obviously you'll agree with anyone who is literally repeating what you just said in your topic post.

However, this "narrative" you just agreed with is a total fiction you guys have created in your heads. It's the same thing AP talked about below, pretending there's a conspiracy to "hide" strong heroines from the past and not "admitting" they exist, and that notion is some made-up self-justification bull**** you guys are slapping each other on the back with.

There is no reality to this discussion, and you're obviously not willing to respond to someone who challenges your agenda.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

No amount of bold will make you right Froggy old fellow and if you actually read my comment you'd see it made several separate points to the OP.

As for why nobody had any issues with Leia 'tearing down' men it's because - and wait for it because the answer is shocking - it's because she's... Well. Written. She feels *real*, not somebody that's walked out of a bad YA novel.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

And PS: Rey is a Mary Sue.

[–] AP (5295) 7 years ago

If they admit that strong female heroes have existed in the past and that most people either don't mind or even celebrate the fact, then they no longer have a narrative. They have to pretend that Rey was the first female hero in sci-fi so that if anyone points out she is poorly written, they can just accuse them of hating women and not have to have a rational thought.

[–] dteam6 (5073) 7 years ago

Sad but true...

[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

This is true but part of it is they are splitting hairs. I use this example a lot, but take Michelle Yeoh in STD. She is not the first female captain, she is not the first Asian captain...she is the first Asian female captain on a Star Trek show on a streaming service. That box is now checked, they have broken through the glass ceiling...

It doesn't matter if the story is good, or the actress is good..what matters most is checking all the boxes of their diversity card..which apparently only began tracking things the last couple of years because the card would be mostly full if you paid attention to the last 100 years of film making.

[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

I didn't think Jyn was so bad. I thought she was a realistic character and I also loved Rogue One. Yes, she was competent and a fierce fighter, but they took the trouble to show us why -- she was raised by guerillas and learned from them. Jyn also cried when [spoiler]seeing her father's hologram message and when he was dying. My biggest complaint is that they all died. I was hoping a couple of them would survive, or at least Donnie Yen's character.[/spoiler]

[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

The thing with Jyn is I simply don't like her. I like R1, I think its the best of the three films released so far. But Jyn remains a sore spot for me. She is unlikable character, i don't like her personality, I don't' like the sometimes wooden acting, I couldn't have been less moved by her little speech in the film. Donnie Yen ended up being my favorite, but I believe he was in some ways wasted. He would have been perfect as one of those remaining lost Jedi.

[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

I agree 100% on Donnie Yen. Donnie Yen + double-bladed lightsaber = all kinds of awesome

[–] kuku (3510) 7 years ago

In the current SJW narrative, the biggest problem of those characters is that they behave as real women. In general women don't like to "go on an adventure" and chasing dragons. They like their home.

So how you get a woman to show her strength in a movie? You enter her territory, you mess with her family. The alien kidnaps Newt, and then God help the poor bug (notice that Ripley don't fight back in Aliens 2 until they kidnap the child, and it's THEN when hell breaks loose). Terminator goes after Sarah Connor's kid (big mistake). And Darth Vader destroys Leia's home and family. Women don't like the knight errant stuff, they don't want problems... until you mess with them.

But all that means accepting women and men have a different brain, different interests and character... and that's heresy.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

In general women don't like to "go on an adventure" and chasing dragons. They like their home.

Well first off, this applies to Rey 100%. The only home she had known was Jakku, and waiting there for her family for 14 years. She even wanted to return as soon as possible, which Finn thought was crazy. Her attachment to home and family was a major element of her character.

Secondly, the implication here must be that you consider male action heroes to be extremely realistic, instead of so often being idealized, mostly unrealistic fantasies of bravado and courage. That's what movies are very good at, in particular action and sci-fi. They excel at stylized fantasy.

I wouldn't pinpoint women in your quote. I would say it's safe to assume that MOST PEOPLE, male and female, prefer the safety and comfort of what they call home. I would say it's safe to assume that the majority of even the bravest soldiers and police officers would prefer a "perfect world" where there is no need for them to go out and "chase dragons," putting their lives at risk and their families at risk of losing their support.

Protecting family is also a strong male drive, even though you seem to apply it exclusively to females for some reason. You mention two James Cameron movies in your examples, and I would point to True Lies as a Cameron example where the man and woman both respond to a threat against family, and chase dragons together.

[–] kuku (3510) 7 years ago

1 ---Well first off, this applies to Rey 100%. The only home she had known was Jakku, and waiting there for her family for 14 years. She even wanted to return as soon as possible, which Finn thought was crazy. Her attachment to home and family was a major element of her character.

2 ---Secondly, the implication here must be that you consider male action heroes to be extremely realistic, instead of so often being idealized, mostly unrealistic fantasies of bravado and courage. That's what movies are very good at, in particular action and sci-fi. They excel at stylized fantasy.

1 ---In The Hobbit, Bilbo has a big attachment to home. He missed home, he wanted back, and it was so important that he helped the dwarves to have their own home. Bilbo has even a higher attachment to his home than Rey, and he still went to chase dragons. Bilbo is a believable male character. Rey, indeed, would make a believable male character (would still make a male Mary Sue, though).

I was not talking about having a attachment with home or missing home. That both male and females have, sexes being different doesn't mean there isn't a big common ground.

2 ---Nope. The implication is that the psychological motivations must be realistic. The actions of Han Solo are pure fantasy, but the motivations are realistic: he starts caring only about money, and ends risking his own life to protect his friends because he grown to care about them.

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

The PC and feminist types will not count Sarah Conner, becaus, since she is a mother the film is shot from the male perspective of her (or some other absurdity relating to the "male gaze")...

Also, Ripley was made into a mother figure in Aliens... Therefore doesn't count...

Finally, they will consider them damsels in distress/ eye-candy running away from monsters, in their skimpy underwear...

You cannot reason with them... They actually do want the flawless, desexed superwoman types... the only way they'll accept sexuality is if the woman is dominant, the only love is lesbian or male suplicating and there is a strong preference for not seeing a woman play an evil role/villian...

There is no room for women characters that are evil, for villans, for transgression... No whores either, as any female sex must be portrayed in a sex positive way.. Therefore limited room for interesting non-perfect women... Therefore you'll always find them championing the boring wonderwoman Rey/Jyn types, rather than more naunced characters like Sarah Conner and Ripley... There is rarely an interesting female villain for example, whereas there are loads of dudes who have made career defining roles playing bad guys or morally flawed characters... psychos, playboys, dictators, white collar ciminals and gangsters, etc... Men fail in movies, they fail hard (moral weakness, errors in judgement, diloyalty, etc,,) and it is interesting, but women characters are not allowed this as they must be perfect feminist ideal heros... that's why they are boring...

You have to recognise when their (feminists) idiology is just that, and idiology and a set of beliefs asserted to be true or that they need to be made true... Like the religious, there are matters which are articles of faith for them...

Just recognise trash movies as trash and move on... Star Wars has always been childish trash, it is just PC/Feminist in addition to being childish trash 😉 i also recognise Transformers for what it is 😁

[–] dteam6 (5073) 7 years ago

The inherent irony is the fact that portraying women in this new Hollywood era as superhuman only shoe a large amount of insecurity. Only insecure people need to put on such a forcibly tough facade all the time.

[–] Lady_Leopard17 (227) 7 years ago

OMG! There is almost nothing on this earth that I find more irritating about these fucking feminist and PC people than when you ask one if they want equally to men or superiority they never seem to give you a straight answer even though we already know the answer to that, I know this cause I've actually asked a few on the Ghostbusters board back when the IMDb message boards were still up and running...and there was one feminist in preticular that stood out on that board I believe her user name was HestiaRose, Jesus did she have some serious mental problems LOL!

These irritating feminist are why I really enjoy Seth MacFarlane's work, he isn't big on feminist either... which is evidence in the portrayal of the character of Meg Griffin in the popular comedy show Family Guy, who is nothing more than the families punching bag... it's hilarious.

For those of you who are getting sick and tried of this feminist propaganda I strongly recommend giving some of Seth MacFarlane's shows a go as well as his movies especially Ted 1&2, trust me MacFarlane protrays his male characters in a more positive light than the female characters must of the time...and he too is a big fan of the old Star Wars films, and even did a special Family Guy Star Wars trilogy. I'm sure MacFarlane is going to have a field day spoofing these new Star Wars films, in fact Disney should just let MacFarlane write and direct any other Star Wars movies coming out if there are any more after this HA! What do they have to lose?

[–] castilvenia (33) 7 years ago

DIDENT YOU HEARD? DISNEY BOUGHT FOX. FAMILY GUY WAS FOX PROPERTY

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Ted 2 was awesome, liked it more than the first.